The unconscious mind
Discussion
On BBC4 there was an Horizon programme on the un(sub)sonscious mind and how it effects decision making. There was a bit on autopilot responses which is hardly new but overall it was quite revealing. There was the obligatory MRI scanner. They'll be using them on Britians got Talent soon.
I am looking for a house to buy. My wife and I first of all see the see from the outside and check the area before making the effort to see inside. The norm is that about 3/4s are rejected at this stage.
On paper one looked perfect for us. All our criteria were met. As we turned into the cul de sac my wife said: I don't like it. I wasn't going to let it go at that and asked her what had put her off the area. She said she didn't know. I drove out of the road, turned the car around and then drove into it more slowly and asked her to point out things which put her off the place.
I won't go into her reasons but it was clear that she'd registered a number of features instantly without consciously 'seeing' them. I was concentrating on driving and had missed most.
It is a fascinating subject. Who hasn't been introduced to someone and disliked them instantly. You consciously give them another chance, you start to be friendly and then some time later they turn into the person you thought they were first of all.
I am looking for a house to buy. My wife and I first of all see the see from the outside and check the area before making the effort to see inside. The norm is that about 3/4s are rejected at this stage.
On paper one looked perfect for us. All our criteria were met. As we turned into the cul de sac my wife said: I don't like it. I wasn't going to let it go at that and asked her what had put her off the area. She said she didn't know. I drove out of the road, turned the car around and then drove into it more slowly and asked her to point out things which put her off the place.
I won't go into her reasons but it was clear that she'd registered a number of features instantly without consciously 'seeing' them. I was concentrating on driving and had missed most.
It is a fascinating subject. Who hasn't been introduced to someone and disliked them instantly. You consciously give them another chance, you start to be friendly and then some time later they turn into the person you thought they were first of all.
A very interesting thread, I had the same house feeling when we were looking. I went to lots of viewings with my wife and we both would look around and politely nod and say ooh yes in the right places but would go back to the car and say no for various reasons. Until we looked at the house I am now sat in typing this.
We looked at the papers the agent had sent us and both dismissed the house, we thought it was in the wrong area, not large enough, terraced, all the things we said we did not want.
The agent had been really good with us being fussy so we agreed to go and look at it after doing another viewing not far away.
As I walked in through the door of the house I turned to the wife and whispered "this is the one" she agreed and we then looked around.
We are really happy here despite the house being nothing like we wanted. There is something subconscious that means we both fell in love with it, it's like we picked up on a good vibe or something utterly unscientific like that, all I know is that I like it here and it feels right.
We looked at the papers the agent had sent us and both dismissed the house, we thought it was in the wrong area, not large enough, terraced, all the things we said we did not want.
The agent had been really good with us being fussy so we agreed to go and look at it after doing another viewing not far away.
As I walked in through the door of the house I turned to the wife and whispered "this is the one" she agreed and we then looked around.
We are really happy here despite the house being nothing like we wanted. There is something subconscious that means we both fell in love with it, it's like we picked up on a good vibe or something utterly unscientific like that, all I know is that I like it here and it feels right.
Bedazzled said:
What was the programme? I'd be interested to see that.
I've had the same experience when buying houses, and I form opinions of people very quickly too as I'm sure we all do. I expect it's connected with 80/20 fight or flight decision making, i.e. our brains evolved to make reasonably accurate pattern-matching decisions, so that we could respond rapidly to threats such as predators, and opportunities too.
Our instincts aren't always right though, don't confuse one's prejudice for intuition. If someone does something that matches your initial first impression, it just reinforces the preconceived patterns in your brain and you tend to ignore things that don't. It's called confirmation bias.
It's not on iPlayers. The only link I can find is: I've had the same experience when buying houses, and I form opinions of people very quickly too as I'm sure we all do. I expect it's connected with 80/20 fight or flight decision making, i.e. our brains evolved to make reasonably accurate pattern-matching decisions, so that we could respond rapidly to threats such as predators, and opportunities too.
Our instincts aren't always right though, don't confuse one's prejudice for intuition. If someone does something that matches your initial first impression, it just reinforces the preconceived patterns in your brain and you tend to ignore things that don't. It's called confirmation bias.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mgxf
It'll probably be on BBC4 sooner or later.
I used to be i/ce of my force control room, in charge of all major incidents until I could pass them off to a local ranker. Everything someone in my position did was listed on a contemporariness serial. There was no hiding place.
I used to read the serials of the other Ops1s to see if I could learn something and avoid mistakes. You knew you'd arrived when they started to read yours.
There used to be an electronic prompt sheet and it was interesting to see that they didn't always follow the order, in fact hardly ever, yet it was arranged logically. When they did something sooner than I thought necessary or it was merited I used to ask them why. The norm was that if it was a good decision then they would often say that they did not know but that it seemed a good idea. The more experienced they were the more often they did it.
It wasn't a simple case of experience as if it was they'd be able to say why.
I was really chuffed when I started to do it and I had the confidence to do so but still didn't know. In one job, a murder, I sent a radio message for the controller to broadcast: this is either a domestic or a contract killing. Either way, it is safe to approach.
The job went bent later and there were all sorts of repercussions. I had to give reasons for that radio message and I really, but really, struggled despite sending officers into a firearms situation was not something anyone does lightly.
There were a number of previous jobs, most of them mine, that I could use as examples to support the decision. I was told that I could not have considered all of those at the time but I think my unconscious worked it out.
In one job I worked out I made a decision every three seconds for something like 20 mins. Most of them were spot on. I didn't get cocky as all the other Ops1s did the same thing. I can't think that fast.
I'm a touch typist. I don't think about which key to press.
I used to read the serials of the other Ops1s to see if I could learn something and avoid mistakes. You knew you'd arrived when they started to read yours.
There used to be an electronic prompt sheet and it was interesting to see that they didn't always follow the order, in fact hardly ever, yet it was arranged logically. When they did something sooner than I thought necessary or it was merited I used to ask them why. The norm was that if it was a good decision then they would often say that they did not know but that it seemed a good idea. The more experienced they were the more often they did it.
It wasn't a simple case of experience as if it was they'd be able to say why.
I was really chuffed when I started to do it and I had the confidence to do so but still didn't know. In one job, a murder, I sent a radio message for the controller to broadcast: this is either a domestic or a contract killing. Either way, it is safe to approach.
The job went bent later and there were all sorts of repercussions. I had to give reasons for that radio message and I really, but really, struggled despite sending officers into a firearms situation was not something anyone does lightly.
There were a number of previous jobs, most of them mine, that I could use as examples to support the decision. I was told that I could not have considered all of those at the time but I think my unconscious worked it out.
In one job I worked out I made a decision every three seconds for something like 20 mins. Most of them were spot on. I didn't get cocky as all the other Ops1s did the same thing. I can't think that fast.
I'm a touch typist. I don't think about which key to press.
I've always been fascinated by the notion of a 'sixth sense' that subconsciously tells us things.
One personal example I can think of right now is many years ago when I was at college.
I was waiting for the bus to arrive, and around a minute or so before the bus came around the corner, I suddenly got the notion to skip this bus I was waiting for, and get the next one.
I ignored the feeling as I needed to get to college.
Turned out that as soon as I got on the bus, I saw sat down a guy from school who had bullied me. (The only person I've ever feared really)
He saw me and glared at me, but thankfully nothing ever came of the situation, but I still spent that journey in fear - I'd been using that bus at that time for months and never seen him before.
Hardly a groundbreaking event, but I still to this day wonder why I suddenly got the strong urge to skip the bus and get the next one.
There have been other times where I've had a feeling and acted on it, but never seen any obvious results. Maybe by heeding my notions I'm getting myself out of a bad situation, no matter how insignificant that could be.
One personal example I can think of right now is many years ago when I was at college.
I was waiting for the bus to arrive, and around a minute or so before the bus came around the corner, I suddenly got the notion to skip this bus I was waiting for, and get the next one.
I ignored the feeling as I needed to get to college.
Turned out that as soon as I got on the bus, I saw sat down a guy from school who had bullied me. (The only person I've ever feared really)
He saw me and glared at me, but thankfully nothing ever came of the situation, but I still spent that journey in fear - I'd been using that bus at that time for months and never seen him before.
Hardly a groundbreaking event, but I still to this day wonder why I suddenly got the strong urge to skip the bus and get the next one.
There have been other times where I've had a feeling and acted on it, but never seen any obvious results. Maybe by heeding my notions I'm getting myself out of a bad situation, no matter how insignificant that could be.
Derek Smith said:
I used to be i/ce of my force control room, in charge of all major incidents until I could pass them off to a local ranker. Everything someone in my position did was listed on a contemporariness serial. There was no hiding place.
I used to read the serials of the other Ops1s to see if I could learn something and avoid mistakes. You knew you'd arrived when they started to read yours.
There used to be an electronic prompt sheet and it was interesting to see that they didn't always follow the order, in fact hardly ever, yet it was arranged logically. When they did something sooner than I thought necessary or it was merited I used to ask them why. The norm was that if it was a good decision then they would often say that they did not know but that it seemed a good idea. The more experienced they were the more often they did it.
It wasn't a simple case of experience as if it was they'd be able to say why.
I was really chuffed when I started to do it and I had the confidence to do so but still didn't know. In one job, a murder, I sent a radio message for the controller to broadcast: this is either a domestic or a contract killing. Either way, it is safe to approach.
The job went bent later and there were all sorts of repercussions. I had to give reasons for that radio message and I really, but really, struggled despite sending officers into a firearms situation was not something anyone does lightly.
There were a number of previous jobs, most of them mine, that I could use as examples to support the decision. I was told that I could not have considered all of those at the time but I think my unconscious worked it out.
In one job I worked out I made a decision every three seconds for something like 20 mins. Most of them were spot on. I didn't get cocky as all the other Ops1s did the same thing. I can't think that fast.
I'm a touch typist. I don't think about which key to press.
You have pretty much summarised the 'Conscious Competence' Model of learning!!I used to read the serials of the other Ops1s to see if I could learn something and avoid mistakes. You knew you'd arrived when they started to read yours.
There used to be an electronic prompt sheet and it was interesting to see that they didn't always follow the order, in fact hardly ever, yet it was arranged logically. When they did something sooner than I thought necessary or it was merited I used to ask them why. The norm was that if it was a good decision then they would often say that they did not know but that it seemed a good idea. The more experienced they were the more often they did it.
It wasn't a simple case of experience as if it was they'd be able to say why.
I was really chuffed when I started to do it and I had the confidence to do so but still didn't know. In one job, a murder, I sent a radio message for the controller to broadcast: this is either a domestic or a contract killing. Either way, it is safe to approach.
The job went bent later and there were all sorts of repercussions. I had to give reasons for that radio message and I really, but really, struggled despite sending officers into a firearms situation was not something anyone does lightly.
There were a number of previous jobs, most of them mine, that I could use as examples to support the decision. I was told that I could not have considered all of those at the time but I think my unconscious worked it out.
In one job I worked out I made a decision every three seconds for something like 20 mins. Most of them were spot on. I didn't get cocky as all the other Ops1s did the same thing. I can't think that fast.
I'm a touch typist. I don't think about which key to press.
Learners start as 'Unconscious incompetent' - they have no idea how ignorant they are, and assess their own competance very poorly.
They progress to 'conscious incompetent' - they realise how much they don't know.
As they continue, they become 'conscious competent' - they can perform a skill but are still aware of their processes.
The final stage is 'unconscious competence' where the skills are so embedded that processes are automatic.
There is a final stage which is often developed by those who have to train others, where someone unconscious competent learns to deconstruct the task into its components so that they can teach it.
Edited by wendyg on Wednesday 9th May 20:41
wendyg said:
You have pretty much summarised the 'Conscious Competence' Model of learning!!
Learners start as 'Unconscious incompetent' - they have no idea how ignorant they are, and assess their own competance very poorly.
They progress to 'conscious incompetent' - they realise how much they don't know.
As they continue, they become 'conscious competent' - they can perform a skill but are still aware of their processes.
The final stage is 'unconscious competence' where the skills are so embedded that processes are automatic.
There is a final stage which is often developed by those who have to train others, where someone unconscious competent learns to deconstruct the task into its components so that they can teach it.
Who are you calling incompetent?Learners start as 'Unconscious incompetent' - they have no idea how ignorant they are, and assess their own competance very poorly.
They progress to 'conscious incompetent' - they realise how much they don't know.
As they continue, they become 'conscious competent' - they can perform a skill but are still aware of their processes.
The final stage is 'unconscious competence' where the skills are so embedded that processes are automatic.
There is a final stage which is often developed by those who have to train others, where someone unconscious competent learns to deconstruct the task into its components so that they can teach it.
Well, me I suppose.
I've driven on autopilot. I was coming out from the office one afternoon with a staff member who'd just joined. I made my way to the car park then realised that not only could I not remember where I'd parked my car, but which one I'd come in. I had both sets of keys so that didn't help. I had to wander in and look around me without appear desperate.
I could not remember anything of the morning before sitting down in front of the screen and logging on. Really quite frightening, especially for the others on the road at the time.
I stopped a car once and smelt alcohol. I bagged the bloke but he failed to inflate the bag so I nicked him. He refused all procedures. The defence was that the police were racialist from start - me - to finish - the station sergeant who didn't do the procedure corrently. The chap was Jewish.
I was asked why I'd stopped the car and I had to say that I didn't know why. I said that as soon as I had seen it I thought it worth a stop. Lots of argument and then it was put to me that I stopped him because he was Jewish. I pointed out that I couldn't really see the driver and even if I could I'm not sure I would have said the bloke was Jewish.
He was found guil5y and banned but it got me thinking as to why and in the end I decided to trust my first instincts in such matters and it worked a nubmer of times. The percentage was around 25% for positives and that's pretty good as any PC will tell you.
When I'd got a bit of time in PCs used to ask 'How did you know?' and I'd say, 'When you've got some experience you won't have to ask.' So despite saying that just to pose and irritate them, it appears it was spot on.
I've been wrong though. We nicked a group of four offenders who were very experienced in their chosen profession, just not particularly good at it. I did a lot of research before interviewing them - you could in those days - phoning up previous arresting officers, that sort of thing. All said he'd give me the run around. I had an MO, with branches: if answer to Q1 was A then go to B, that sort of thing. He had a stroppy brief whom I'd crossed swords with before so I booked the room for an hour with a caveat that I might want more. I was up for it.
After ten minutes I'd got a full and frank confession. I had difficulty taking it in. When I came out the brief asked me why I was so irritated after getting a confession and I said how much work I'd put in. He said it was obvious by my manner. I wondered if that was the reason the bloke just coughed.
People, including me and probably you, Wendy, are peculiar.
Bedazzled said:
Very good programme, well worth a watch. My subconscious was finding it difficult to ignore the blooming sign-language woman who took up a third of the screen; a pet hate of mine, why do millions of viewers have to put up with this on repeats, for a few deaf people who could just press the subtitles button on their remote? 
.
It's because a lot of Deaf people can't read. English as a verbal or written language is largely irrelevant for someone who has grown up deaf and only ever learnt BSL. .Fascinating subject though, the subconscious is a powerful thing, really enjoyed the program... A study into the various algorithms we use in day to day life would be really interesting.
jackh707 said:
It's because a lot of Deaf people can't read. English as a verbal or written language is largely irrelevant for someone who has grown up deaf and only ever learnt BSL.
I'm ignorant in this subject so forgive me but wouldn't it be better in general to learn to read than learn sign language?Back to the car/drunk driver you stopped Derek - the car must have been behaving slightly differently, even if you didn't realise it.
Perhaps not staying on the subject of the intuitive side of things but...
...a few years back I did a ten day Vipassana meditation course. For ten days you are not allowed to speak with or even acknowledge anyone on the course other than the teacher or the helper should you need any urgent assistance with something. Other than that you are completely silent and meditating ten hours a day.
Among the many things that happened, one of the things that was quite remarkable was how powerful my memory became. When you take out the sensory white noise that we are bombarded with constantly each and every day, my mind started to look for other things to do and it started flooding me with memories so vivid, like watching an HD film with every tiny detail in crystal clarity, of things I could previously barely remember even doing and often from when I was a child up to 35 years ago.
It was extremely intense and at times overwhelming.
I can fully believe it when they say we only use a fraction of our brain at any given time.
...a few years back I did a ten day Vipassana meditation course. For ten days you are not allowed to speak with or even acknowledge anyone on the course other than the teacher or the helper should you need any urgent assistance with something. Other than that you are completely silent and meditating ten hours a day.
Among the many things that happened, one of the things that was quite remarkable was how powerful my memory became. When you take out the sensory white noise that we are bombarded with constantly each and every day, my mind started to look for other things to do and it started flooding me with memories so vivid, like watching an HD film with every tiny detail in crystal clarity, of things I could previously barely remember even doing and often from when I was a child up to 35 years ago.
It was extremely intense and at times overwhelming.
I can fully believe it when they say we only use a fraction of our brain at any given time.
Perhpas not entirely on topic but I used to be in charge of the CCTV room in Brighton police station - amongsth other duties. When a public order or 'lively' incident took place we would get officers to view the tap before interviewing prisoners. What frequently occured was that officers whould say: I don't remember that happening. They would be astounded that they missed something. That's no stretch of belief there though, although some of the incidents happened right in front of them.
The strange thing was that many would say that they 'remembered' things in a very different way. It might be simple things, such as they thought the person was standing up. Once it was that the officer thought he'd spoken with the victim after they'd been injured but it was quite clear that he had not. Timing is often confused. An incident might have taken a few seconds but they would remember everything they did quite clearly but they assumed it had happened over a longer, sometimes much longer, period.
I've never lied in court, not in 30 years and I spent more time giving evidence than most officers. But I now wonder how many of my statements, which were backed up by my memory so 'true' in that aspect, were in fact wrong. It's a bit of a weird feeling not being able to trust one's memory.
I had a complaint from a MotP regarding poor response to an emergency call. She reckoned she had said such and such but a review of the tape (another job of mine) showed that she had not. I got the complainant to come to the nick (if we'd been in the wrong I would have gone to them) and let her hear the tape. She had brought her boss along and I was initially worried about making her look a bit of an idiot because she had left out important information, despite being asked the normal things by the controller.
I left the room, wandered back to be told: that's not how I remember it. I shrugged and said: but that's how it happened. However, they were not to be convinced. They wanted to make a complaint. So I had to write one out desite knowing that I had ample evidence that it was rubbish and the complainant knew it. The controller, one of my best, had even asked: is there anything else you'd like to tell me that's relevant?
Mind you, D&C phoned me when they received the file and copy tape and asked me why I hadn't played the tape to them. So they don't read files.
The woman was convinced of what she said and despite overwhelming evidence that she was talking rubbish, and she still maintained that what she remembered was right. Very strange.
Minds are funny things. I might ignore mine.
The strange thing was that many would say that they 'remembered' things in a very different way. It might be simple things, such as they thought the person was standing up. Once it was that the officer thought he'd spoken with the victim after they'd been injured but it was quite clear that he had not. Timing is often confused. An incident might have taken a few seconds but they would remember everything they did quite clearly but they assumed it had happened over a longer, sometimes much longer, period.
I've never lied in court, not in 30 years and I spent more time giving evidence than most officers. But I now wonder how many of my statements, which were backed up by my memory so 'true' in that aspect, were in fact wrong. It's a bit of a weird feeling not being able to trust one's memory.
I had a complaint from a MotP regarding poor response to an emergency call. She reckoned she had said such and such but a review of the tape (another job of mine) showed that she had not. I got the complainant to come to the nick (if we'd been in the wrong I would have gone to them) and let her hear the tape. She had brought her boss along and I was initially worried about making her look a bit of an idiot because she had left out important information, despite being asked the normal things by the controller.
I left the room, wandered back to be told: that's not how I remember it. I shrugged and said: but that's how it happened. However, they were not to be convinced. They wanted to make a complaint. So I had to write one out desite knowing that I had ample evidence that it was rubbish and the complainant knew it. The controller, one of my best, had even asked: is there anything else you'd like to tell me that's relevant?
Mind you, D&C phoned me when they received the file and copy tape and asked me why I hadn't played the tape to them. So they don't read files.
The woman was convinced of what she said and despite overwhelming evidence that she was talking rubbish, and she still maintained that what she remembered was right. Very strange.
Minds are funny things. I might ignore mine.
This is a subject very close to my heart and core part of my business life.
Unravelling the subconscious with someone going through big trauma in their lives is insightful and maddively empowering. I have a great many conversations about 'why do I feel like that' or 'why I do I think like that'. When you go back and start to unravel and reveal people's lives in great detail quite often there are real ah-ha moments of revelation that answer these questions.
It surprises people just much much of life is influences by the minutae of detail and seemingly tiniest and often forgotten influence, whether they be word, or thought or sometimes something as subtle as just a look or an expression. I've sat working with people and they get to that moment of insight and I have seen people unfold in front of me when they consciously realise just how many of their emotions, thoughts and decisions have been influenced by something that they had completely forgotten. What is also surprising is just how much of life seems to be repeating patterns of behaviour triggered by the same or similar cues. That can be quite shocking to the system when you realise also how much of life is influenced by our very formative years.
Sitting in the chair from the other side makes me realise the huge responsibility we have as parents to positively support our children and encourage them to do well. Sometimes it can be a single sentence, a misplaced word or a 'wrong' gesture that changes the course of a life. It fascinates me every time I see it and every single time someone gets an 'ah-ha' moment it changes their lives.
Unravelling the subconscious with someone going through big trauma in their lives is insightful and maddively empowering. I have a great many conversations about 'why do I feel like that' or 'why I do I think like that'. When you go back and start to unravel and reveal people's lives in great detail quite often there are real ah-ha moments of revelation that answer these questions.
It surprises people just much much of life is influences by the minutae of detail and seemingly tiniest and often forgotten influence, whether they be word, or thought or sometimes something as subtle as just a look or an expression. I've sat working with people and they get to that moment of insight and I have seen people unfold in front of me when they consciously realise just how many of their emotions, thoughts and decisions have been influenced by something that they had completely forgotten. What is also surprising is just how much of life seems to be repeating patterns of behaviour triggered by the same or similar cues. That can be quite shocking to the system when you realise also how much of life is influenced by our very formative years.
Sitting in the chair from the other side makes me realise the huge responsibility we have as parents to positively support our children and encourage them to do well. Sometimes it can be a single sentence, a misplaced word or a 'wrong' gesture that changes the course of a life. It fascinates me every time I see it and every single time someone gets an 'ah-ha' moment it changes their lives.
Psychologists often think of the mind having workings like that of a computer.Input - Process - Output.Models of Memory or Learning all feature basically the same functions.Simple reactions,complex reactions,automaticity and habit are all a result of learning..You may have 'picked up' more than you realise but once a shape,sound,feeling or movement is in your long term memory it'll pop up maybe in a decade's time and you'll be surprised and think you'd never encountered a stimulus as such before.But you have.
Derek Smith said:
The woman was convinced of what she said and despite overwhelming evidence that she was talking rubbish, and she still maintained that what she remembered was right.
Or she was simply lying hoping to be let off/get compensation. It is quite remarkable to be sitting in court next to someone who is telling complete lies and with no evidence to back them up. Desperate measures etc... I stuck to facts with proof; I won.Bedazzled said:
What fascinates me is why people who are naturally 'gifted' at a sport are able to connect up the neurons and automate the skills much more quickly and precisely, and yet their 'hard-wired' ability is often limited to one particular discipline. I've played snooker for years and I'm happy if I make a 30 break, whereas Jimmy White made a 50 break the very first time he picked up a snooker cue as a kid.
I am reading a book about this kind of excellence in pretty much any field of expertise called "Bounce" and it pretty much disproves the theory of people being gifted and replaces it with the idea that they have actually had so much useful practice that it looks like they are gifted. Here is a linkAll skill is related to learning which is determined by a person's memory process.Practice can improve a skill and shorten reaction time but no one is 'born' with a gift for any particular sport..The brain detects a stimulus and decides what action to take (process) quicker than the next persons: often this is simply because an individual can concentrate in a certain situation better than another. Physiological factors such as muscle fiber % eyesight,hearing and general fitness and psychological factors such as attention and motivation also play a part.
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