Discussion
I've always been interested in the stars/cosmos and also UFO stories...
I think some good points have already been raised about probabilities and evolution etc.
One thing I would add is many place restrictions on what is/isn't may/may not be possible based on our current knowledge. Well go back a minute amount of time in cosmos terms and if you showed our ancestors fire or electricity or flight etc they'd be burning you at the stake for being a witch/sorcerer.
I remember seeing that lost tribe in a rain forest that was firing arrows at a Cessna flying overhead, so that's the same 'animal' on the same planet at the same time and that if you were able to communicate with would be incredulous at the thought of flight an internal combustion engine etc etc...it would blow there minds and reset their lines of what is possible/impossible.
IMO if an Alien civilisation existed then to me there is absolutely no reason to suspect that our minds/views wouldn't be similarly changed and potentially by a far greater margin than the lost tribe.
Ok one lost tribesman might be able to think, one day I think we might fly like the birds, but he is never going to say one day we might land a probe on Mars. The knowledge of a solar system or Mars or space is nil so to him it is an unimaginable concept.
A modern parallel to the tribesman's flight thought might be that 'one day we will be able to travel at the speed of light'. As for the unimaginable concept well it's simply that unimaginable!
History points to the fact that at some point in the future there will be things/discoveries etc that are taught to primary school age children that even the academics and scholars of 2013 cannot imagine and/or don't currently know about.....
I think some good points have already been raised about probabilities and evolution etc.
One thing I would add is many place restrictions on what is/isn't may/may not be possible based on our current knowledge. Well go back a minute amount of time in cosmos terms and if you showed our ancestors fire or electricity or flight etc they'd be burning you at the stake for being a witch/sorcerer.
I remember seeing that lost tribe in a rain forest that was firing arrows at a Cessna flying overhead, so that's the same 'animal' on the same planet at the same time and that if you were able to communicate with would be incredulous at the thought of flight an internal combustion engine etc etc...it would blow there minds and reset their lines of what is possible/impossible.
IMO if an Alien civilisation existed then to me there is absolutely no reason to suspect that our minds/views wouldn't be similarly changed and potentially by a far greater margin than the lost tribe.
Ok one lost tribesman might be able to think, one day I think we might fly like the birds, but he is never going to say one day we might land a probe on Mars. The knowledge of a solar system or Mars or space is nil so to him it is an unimaginable concept.
A modern parallel to the tribesman's flight thought might be that 'one day we will be able to travel at the speed of light'. As for the unimaginable concept well it's simply that unimaginable!
History points to the fact that at some point in the future there will be things/discoveries etc that are taught to primary school age children that even the academics and scholars of 2013 cannot imagine and/or don't currently know about.....
PW said:
That's just used as a convenient catch-all when something apparently impossible needs explaining - the same as with religion.
"Oh, that thing that appears impossible... well it isn't because Aliens have Technology/God did it".
Delete as appropriate. Both hold as much weight as a piece of McDonalds lettuce.
I'm not saying it as evidence/proof etc only that should another life form exist and then visit us then they would have to be in advance of us scientifically/technologically just as we would be if we found life elsewhere. If that ever happened, either way round then the 'found' life from would indeed have some of the up to then impossible proved possible."Oh, that thing that appears impossible... well it isn't because Aliens have Technology/God did it".
Delete as appropriate. Both hold as much weight as a piece of McDonalds lettuce.
Lots of times the thing that is impossible is just something that we haven't worked out yet....not God not Aliens did it...it's just 'regular' physics/chemistry whatever that's unknown but that one day might become something we use everyday.
It's an extension of me at work saying when I was at school we didn't have mobile phones and the youngsters in the office jaws dropping, one day they will be saying the same to a next generation with their new gadget, the scientific breakthroughs may not happen in such a short time frame but we will continue to see similar jumps/advances, like nuclear power.
I know not what is really being explored at CERN but there are some seriously intelligent and devoted people studying the smallest particles and who is to say that something truely fundamental doesn't come from their work, something that rewrites history or changes the way the world goes forward ie makes the current impossible possible.
Scootersp said:
I've always been interested in the stars/cosmos and also UFO stories...
I think some good points have already been raised about probabilities and evolution etc.
One thing I would add is many place restrictions on what is/isn't may/may not be possible based on our current knowledge. Well go back a minute amount of time in cosmos terms and if you showed our ancestors fire or electricity or flight etc they'd be burning you at the stake for being a witch/sorcerer.
Often wonder at this as we have no time machine. Leonardo certainly had a few idea's for flight and I bet many more would perhaps have not been so cowed? Fire has been around longer than we have and leccy, we, magic. If you could show someone how it worked and the benefits them maybe not so scary? Problem is the populace were controlled by the church (druids, whatever) and what they did not like did not go. I think some good points have already been raised about probabilities and evolution etc.
One thing I would add is many place restrictions on what is/isn't may/may not be possible based on our current knowledge. Well go back a minute amount of time in cosmos terms and if you showed our ancestors fire or electricity or flight etc they'd be burning you at the stake for being a witch/sorcerer.
Scootersp said:
I remember seeing that lost tribe in a rain forest that was firing arrows at a Cessna flying overhead, so that's the same 'animal' on the same planet at the same time and that if you were able to communicate with would be incredulous at the thought of flight an internal combustion engine etc etc...it would blow there minds and reset their lines of what is possible/impossible.
Maybe they were not so awed but it was the same as hearing "get orf moi larnd"? 
Scootersp said:
IMO if an Alien civilisation existed then to me there is absolutely no reason to suspect that our minds/views wouldn't be similarly changed and potentially by a far greater margin than the lost tribe.
I think there are many on this planet that have far more pressing iissues to care about little green men.Scootersp said:
Ok one lost tribesman might be able to think, one day I think we might fly like the birds, but he is never going to say one day we might land a probe on Mars. The knowledge of a solar system or Mars or space is nil so to him it is an unimaginable concept.
Need to ask them. I was regailed with a story about someone studing a tribe in Africa. Invited out on the hunt, all was fine until the game was spotted and all hell broke loose, the interpreter grabbed the shoulder and they hit the deck. Pump action shotguns was the prefered weapon when one was expecting more traditional methods.History points to the fact that at some point in the future there will be things/discoveries etc that are taught to primary school age children that even the academics and scholars of 2013 cannot imagine and/or don't currently know about.....
PW said:
It might be true that "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic", but you can't then use that as justification for building a fantasy universe where anything and everything is possible, we just don't understand it yet.
That's still the same faith based arguments as religion/Aliens, because you can only ever believe that statement is true, never prove it.
FFS I'm not using it for justification for anything, I'm saying there were unknowns in the past and there are unknowns now, we don't know everything, things don't stand still, we naturally seek to understand the currently not understood, explore the previously unexplored and from this when you look back over 10-20 generations of life significant changes have occurred.That's still the same faith based arguments as religion/Aliens, because you can only ever believe that statement is true, never prove it.
It is not a faith based argument to say that we will discover things previously unknown in the future that will improve our understanding of what is around us, that is fact and is backed up by the centuries that have past before us.
We are searching for life outside our planet aren't we? so who is to say we aren't one day the 'little green men' to someone else. I'm not saying we are visited, have been visited etc I don't "believe" but do accept the possibility it could happen. I'm simply saying given the technology we'd sure as hell be exploring a lot more than we currently do so why wouldn't any other form of life?
Millions believe in a God, I'm pretty sure there isn't one but like you say you/I can't convince a believer and there may well be one I can't say for certain, so I think that makes me an Agnostic. So take agnostic add some speculation of extrapolation of technological advancement and you get me thinking in my head one day it may be possible for us to explore into distant space. I believe there is more chance of life out there somewhere than there is of God, based purely on the science and probabilities, not my faith or wish for it to be true. We are living proof at least part of the universe contains life, yes we could be unique but equally we may not.
hachiroku said:
all satellites cannot pass directly over the poles as they interact with the magnetic field lines and crash.
[/footnote]
http://www.n2yo.com/satellites/?c=4[/footnote]
http://www.sat.dundee.ac.uk/satids.html
http://rammb.cira.colostate.edu/dev/hillger/polar-...
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/pod-guide/ncdc/docs/kl...
What am I missing?
This raises and few points and is quite interesting. Worth following the links as well, worth a read.
Initial Skeptics article
Response to above
Reply to response above
Edit. Bad form, should have hinted to the content. From the first link.
Initial Skeptics article
Response to above
Reply to response above
Edit. Bad form, should have hinted to the content. From the first link.
Bad UFO said:
Echoing the points made fifty years ago by Purcell, Von Hoerner, and Markowitz, Gainer reminds us
The basic principles of physics are applicable independently of where in the galaxy a stellar system is located and will not change over time. Newton’s three laws of motion and the conservation of energy are descriptions of the manner in which different parts of a physical system interact. Consequently, a model based on an exploratory expedition leaving Earth would apply equally to all planetary systems in our galaxy. Any culture, no matter how advanced in technology, would face the same constraints imposed by physics.
The basic principles of physics are applicable independently of where in the galaxy a stellar system is located and will not change over time. Newton’s three laws of motion and the conservation of energy are descriptions of the manner in which different parts of a physical system interact. Consequently, a model based on an exploratory expedition leaving Earth would apply equally to all planetary systems in our galaxy. Any culture, no matter how advanced in technology, would face the same constraints imposed by physics.
Edited by jmorgan on Monday 28th January 07:37
PW said:
Belief in something that is not based on any specific proof, just wilful thinking, or faith, as it is also known.
are you saying that me expecting some sort of continued technological advancement is willful thinking/faith?I see it more as a logical conclusion given what has gone before...
Unidentified flying objects are something that I take a passing interest in, but being a man of engineering and science I do look for the most plausible explanation whenever I hear or read about a UFO.
Today on discovery science there was a program about Area 51 and the people and projects that were there.
One case was the crash of the predecessor to the SR-71 Blackbird and how it was coverd up and the area sanitised, the pilot told some locals that found him to get him and them out of the area quickly as it was a flight in an F-104 carrying a nuclear device. To give the retrieval team time to clear up the wreckage.
Similar sightings from airliners of this aircraft (flying at Mach 3+ over three times higher than they were) going through project blue book. And even those officials were told to foxtrot oscar and make up a cover story because what they had seen and reported was classified.
I’m sure that a great many of the sightings are explained as secret projects which unless these projects are declassified are always going to be denied. If you think about it creating an “It was aliens” is the perfect way to cover up secret projects such as the U-2, SR-71, the rumoured Aurora etc.
Others are still obviously unexplained but I have my doubts that “It was Aliens” to quote a popular meme.
Today on discovery science there was a program about Area 51 and the people and projects that were there.
One case was the crash of the predecessor to the SR-71 Blackbird and how it was coverd up and the area sanitised, the pilot told some locals that found him to get him and them out of the area quickly as it was a flight in an F-104 carrying a nuclear device. To give the retrieval team time to clear up the wreckage.
Similar sightings from airliners of this aircraft (flying at Mach 3+ over three times higher than they were) going through project blue book. And even those officials were told to foxtrot oscar and make up a cover story because what they had seen and reported was classified.
I’m sure that a great many of the sightings are explained as secret projects which unless these projects are declassified are always going to be denied. If you think about it creating an “It was aliens” is the perfect way to cover up secret projects such as the U-2, SR-71, the rumoured Aurora etc.
Others are still obviously unexplained but I have my doubts that “It was Aliens” to quote a popular meme.
Two things jump out at me from recent posts on this thread.
Firstly yes, Physics and it's laws are the same throughout the universe, but we don't yet understand all of Physics do we? If we do, then please enlighten me.
Secondly, what is the difference between "a belief" and "a theory"? Is a theory just a way of capturing your belief in order to try and demonstrate it? Do theoretical physicians believe something and then try and establish a theory and follow on experiments to test their theory (which started as a belief)?
Firstly yes, Physics and it's laws are the same throughout the universe, but we don't yet understand all of Physics do we? If we do, then please enlighten me.
Secondly, what is the difference between "a belief" and "a theory"? Is a theory just a way of capturing your belief in order to try and demonstrate it? Do theoretical physicians believe something and then try and establish a theory and follow on experiments to test their theory (which started as a belief)?
PW said:
It is logical to expect technology to continue to advance within the boundaries of our current understanding of the universe.
It is not so logical
but a bit logical then? It is not so logical
PW said:
to suppose that technology will advance beyond that current understanding as we have no idea how that will possibly happen, how we will do it and what implications that will have on what could be achieved.
I agree we don't know the how and the outcomes, how could we! but I'm happy saying that logically what has happened before will happen again ie life changing discoveries will be made of some sort or another by people experimenting. They don't always know what if anything they will uncover but every now and then some theory/experiment/law will be uncovered that moves things on. If you want to call that as me specifically having faith in that premise well so be it but I'd call it logic.
Nuclear Fission, undiscovered pre 1938 and we all know what happened 7 years later, realising the potential of semiconductor materials which led to the creation of the micro chip, I'd call these things at the time as the pushing of the boundaries of 'our current understanding of the universe' I would argue it is more logical to expect other discoveries like this than it is to assume there will not?
It is interesting the way stuff goes but it a leap of faith until there is some definitive work past the thought experiment. Our humble car should be a jet hover space car by now if we listened to some era's. It is not always straight forward so I would not stick any label saying "logical" on anything.
It's interesting how we get hung up on words, I have reacted to others saying I have 'faith' and then others object to my use of the word logic.
I'm known for being a glass half empty type but in this case it seems I'm more optimistic (faithful!) than some, when saying I think we can expect significant further advances.
Time will tell and probably finding a viable energy source for our time post fossil fuels will determine our continued advancement?
Still for all the mildly combative to'ing and fro'ing it's been an enjoyable thread for me and I'll be clinging on to my faith (there I said it!) in human endeavour.
I'm known for being a glass half empty type but in this case it seems I'm more optimistic (faithful!) than some, when saying I think we can expect significant further advances.
Time will tell and probably finding a viable energy source for our time post fossil fuels will determine our continued advancement?
Still for all the mildly combative to'ing and fro'ing it's been an enjoyable thread for me and I'll be clinging on to my faith (there I said it!) in human endeavour.
nobody is visiting anybody in any spacecraft.think about the speed of light.how far it travels in one solitary second.there are 30 odd million seconds in one year.every single one of those seconds light has travelled 187000 miles.
the nearest star is 4 light years or so away.the nearest(so far) potentially habitable planet is more like 20 light years away.
ignoring all the inconveniences of physics there is still no way anyone is projecting anything of any mass at close to these speeds without being able to bend space and time.
this planet and us as a species will be long gone before any other habitable worlds could be reached.and that works in reverse for "technologically advanced" aliens wanting to visit us
the nearest star is 4 light years or so away.the nearest(so far) potentially habitable planet is more like 20 light years away.
ignoring all the inconveniences of physics there is still no way anyone is projecting anything of any mass at close to these speeds without being able to bend space and time.
this planet and us as a species will be long gone before any other habitable worlds could be reached.and that works in reverse for "technologically advanced" aliens wanting to visit us
tuscaneer said:
nobody is visiting anybody in any spacecraft.think about the speed of light.how far it travels in one solitary second.there are 30 odd million seconds in one year.every single one of those seconds light has travelled 187000 miles.
So what you're saying is...they come from inside the planet?Our nearest galaxy Andromeda is three million light years away.If we could travel at 99.99999999% the speed of light. It would only take fifty years to get there then, another fifty years to get back.
Only snag is that while you have only been away for one hundred years yourself, six million earth years have passed while you were gone.
Only snag is that while you have only been away for one hundred years yourself, six million earth years have passed while you were gone.
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