Still more replies to McLaren F1 questions and com
Discussion
The purchase price and the top speed tend to dominate any debate or reportage about the F1. I tend to think these two facts, to a certain extent, have distorted the received opinion people have of the car.
It’s a difficult question to formulate, but I’d like to ask flemke, but also the other posters, how they would perceive the F1 if the top speed and purchase price was less than say, an Enzo or a Carrera GT. Is the 220+mph top speed an integral part of the F1 experience, or simply an amusing by-product of the engine power and aerodynamics ? Would it still be our most desirable modern car if it had less power and a lower top speed ?
Was it actually a mistake to release the car with such a high top speed ?
Focusing on the purchase price, I’m going to suggest that this is one of those rare occasions that a car has been bought less as an investment or as a display of wealth, but simply as the ultimate car for enthusiasts which happens to have a high price tag, but offers good value-for-money !!!!!
It’s speculation really, but I can imagine more F1s are driven regularly on the road than ist competitors – Enzos, Paganis, Bugattis etc
So, too fast / too expensive ?
It’s a difficult question to formulate, but I’d like to ask flemke, but also the other posters, how they would perceive the F1 if the top speed and purchase price was less than say, an Enzo or a Carrera GT. Is the 220+mph top speed an integral part of the F1 experience, or simply an amusing by-product of the engine power and aerodynamics ? Would it still be our most desirable modern car if it had less power and a lower top speed ?
Was it actually a mistake to release the car with such a high top speed ?
Focusing on the purchase price, I’m going to suggest that this is one of those rare occasions that a car has been bought less as an investment or as a display of wealth, but simply as the ultimate car for enthusiasts which happens to have a high price tag, but offers good value-for-money !!!!!
It’s speculation really, but I can imagine more F1s are driven regularly on the road than ist competitors – Enzos, Paganis, Bugattis etc
So, too fast / too expensive ?
Flemke,
What would be your personal opinion on the "fact" that Wyclef Jean has asked Funkmaster Flex to replace his F1's standard magnesium wheels with diamond encrusted items?
On the basis you are looking for replacement wheels to cope with bigger brakes, would you consider these on your car?
Is there any way, financially, that you could "rescue" this F1 from Mr Jean? Sadly I cannot.
How are the modifications you've made to the F1 coming along?
Cheers
Steve
What would be your personal opinion on the "fact" that Wyclef Jean has asked Funkmaster Flex to replace his F1's standard magnesium wheels with diamond encrusted items?
On the basis you are looking for replacement wheels to cope with bigger brakes, would you consider these on your car?
Is there any way, financially, that you could "rescue" this F1 from Mr Jean? Sadly I cannot.
How are the modifications you've made to the F1 coming along?
Cheers
Steve
Flemke,
I was just wondering if you have ever tried the Light Car Company Rocket as I remember reading somewhere that Gordon Murray himself lists that as his number one achievement above the Mclaren F1 (in terms of road cars). It always looked like being great fun but I think I would go for the F1 myself.
I was just wondering if you have ever tried the Light Car Company Rocket as I remember reading somewhere that Gordon Murray himself lists that as his number one achievement above the Mclaren F1 (in terms of road cars). It always looked like being great fun but I think I would go for the F1 myself.
bor said:As far as the top speed goes, I believe that is not much of a concern when it comes to formulating opinions of the vehicle. Headline grabbing for sure, but cars have hardly needed to be the fastest to be lauded and desired. In fact the F1 being the fastest production car in the world was simply a by-product the design process. Having the highest top speed was by no means a target (unlike with the stillborn Veyron). The speed goal was a simple 200mph. The fact that is reaches 240mph is a testament to the packaging.
...how they would perceive the F1 if the top speed and purchase price was less than say, an Enzo or a Carrera GT. Is the 220+mph top speed an integral part of the F1 experience, or simply an amusing by-product of the engine power and aerodynamics? Would it still be our most desirable modern car if it had less power and a lower top speed?
The price of the car is also headline-grabbing, but I don't think the car being the most expensive has got anything to do with its desirability. Rather, I think that a price that high was necessary given the goals and costs of the project. Remember McLaren lost money on every single vehicle sold.
This is a road car that was designed from the ground up by a genius with a singular vision, absolute purity in objectives, a virtually limitless budget and basically no compromises. No other vehicle in history has managed this feat, and I fear that it may never actually happen now that engineering purity is being chucked out of the window and bottom-line profits count more than anything else.
My point is this: if the car didn't have the top-speed it has, it wouldn't have the mind-numbing acceleration it has. If it didn't have such a large price tag, it wouldn't have been built to such a standard and with the absolute clarity of vision that it has.
The desirability of the car has got nothing to do with the price or top speed per sé, but the top speed and (more so) the price reflect the process in which the car came into being.
And it is that process that singularly makes it the best car in the world, IMO.
D
bor (do F1's top speed and price disproportionately influence how it is thought of?) -
You raise an interesting question, on which, as you say, it could be illuminating to hear many opinions. For what they are worth, my uncomposed thoughts are:
- Price and top speed alone are not decisive. If they were then people would be slavering over the prospect of the Veyron, instead of being bored by its pointlessness. (Having driven one, I can confirm that it's a yawn.)
- The price of an F1 was round about what it cost to build one. There could be an accounting debate over how to weight one-time design and development expenses, which in the case of the F1 were amortised over many fewer vehicles than would apply to Enzo or CGT. Nonetheless the buyer of an F1 was pretty much getting what he had paid for. This contrasts with the other builders, who for various reasons have built substantial profit margins into the price of their cars.
- To my knowledge there was no stated, formal top speed for the F1 until the factory did its record run in 1998, which was roughly at the end of production. For practical purposes, therefore, the car's reputation grew despite no one's knowing how fast it was.
- When modified F1 road cars dominated Le Mans and the global GT series in '95 and '96 (excepting Le Mans in '96), it was unique in modern racing and must have helped to burnish the image.
- I think that people were charmed by the idea that an outfit whose experience was exclusively in purpose-built race cars was undertaking to make the ultimate road car. The same sort of convergence between racing and road car programs is why Ferrari road cars have, despite their big cumulative numbers, developed such a rarefied status while Lamborghinis are looked upon with indulgent sympathy.
- The car came at an inflection point in motoring history. Most of the important parts of its technology and construction are modern, but it just avoided being spoiled by our bureaucratic masters, so the F1 is not burdened with airbags, crumple zones and side impact bars, not to mention the now-ubiquitous ABS, traction control, et al. The F1 remains pure, and we are probably not going to see its like again.
- The central driving position separates it from the others.
- It is a trivial feature, but some people get excited about the gold-leaf reflective film.
- When it was reviewed by the magazines in '94-'95, most of the writers had not experienced anything like it. As a result, they searched the language for unused hyperbolic metaphors. A current car may be in some ways superior, but it is unlikely to be as much of a departure from its contemporaries.
- The Enzo and CGT were aimed at and built for a market. The F1 (and, to be fair, the Zonda) were built to a vision. I think that people have more respect for the latter mentality.
All these elements and probably others helped to generate the car's image. The speed and price definitely helped, but it's ironic that no one today seems to care whether a Veyron, Koenigsegg or other turbo-barge can go faster.
anniesdad (Wyclef's wheels) -
I suspect this fellow Wyclef (with whom I am only familiar because of his role in those cute "know-what-you're-signing" commercials) is not the sort of owner that Gordon Murray had in mind a decade ago, but who am I to say? I hope that he is a proper petrolhead and real driver, but the evidence so far is not encouraging. Then again, if I had insight into the virtues of diamond-encrusted wheels I might be a better person.
With regard to rescuing his car, if I or someone else did so, presumably Mr Jean would just get another. In addition, even if his car was for sale at normal market value, is it the example that one would want to buy? The concepts of diamond-encrusted wheels and mechanical sympathy do not seem to go together like hand and glove.
Now, if we were talking about rubies...
martin robson (Light Car Company Rocket?) -
The car is probably a fine drive, but I prefer not to need a helmet to keep the bugs off my face.
Wyclef Jean is a recording artist/producer, who fronted up The Fugees. I believe that he is being detered from "blinging" up his car as the person being asked to undertake the work is sympathetic and understands the original concept. Similarly "Fiddy" Cent 
who has asked for his RR Phantom to be converted into a drophead has been told similar, not to touch what is/are a work of art, simply for the sake of showing off.
What is it about the Veyron that puts you off? It would be interesting to hear the viewpoint of a factory outsider. I understand if you would prefer not to comment too specifically prior to general release.
Is there a marked difference in acceleration between Veyron and F1 being that the factory claim is from memory 0-180mph in about 18 seconds(?). Does it "feel" like 1000bhp?
who has asked for his RR Phantom to be converted into a drophead has been told similar, not to touch what is/are a work of art, simply for the sake of showing off. What is it about the Veyron that puts you off? It would be interesting to hear the viewpoint of a factory outsider. I understand if you would prefer not to comment too specifically prior to general release.
Is there a marked difference in acceleration between Veyron and F1 being that the factory claim is from memory 0-180mph in about 18 seconds(?). Does it "feel" like 1000bhp?
Flemke,
It's great to read such interesting comments from a genuine owner.
The Mac F1 is a truly legendary car that will never be bettered in my opinion.
It's also the only next step up I'd consider from my current Ruf GT2.
I guess the only interesting thing I can add is that there is an F1 that has had the suspension geometry fully modified with a more modern set-up to make the car more handling and track-capable and less comfort-biased. It was done by a very professional German firm, who also store the car for it's owner (I'm assuming it's not yours). If you wish to know any more please email me via my profile (discretion is of course assured).
As for the German autobahns, they are amazing, it's such a shame that one has to traverse the great empty roads of France and Belgium at such low speeds, now they have their crusade against speeding.....
Rgds
Guy
>> Edited by GuyR on Thursday 12th August 11:55
GuyR said:
...it's such a shame that one has to traverse the great empty roads of France...at such low speeds, now they have their crusade against speeding.....
Rgds
Guy
Guy,
Seriously, is this the case pandemic en France?
I hope not because I was so looking forward to my annual fortnight in Brittainy, where relaxed crusing on the D routes has for years been my 'amber nectar' driving catharsis.
Do you think I'll be ok trundling along at say 110 with the odd, er, foray?
(Bloody hope so!)
DeR.
DeR.
Do 40+kmh over the posted limit and the gendarme may take your english licence from you and effectively stop you from driving on the spot. Make sure Mrs DeR takes her licence with her.
I'll leave Guy to tell you how child murdering heinously fast he was going in Belgium when stopped recently.
DAZ
Do 40+kmh over the posted limit and the gendarme may take your english licence from you and effectively stop you from driving on the spot. Make sure Mrs DeR takes her licence with her.
I'll leave Guy to tell you how child murdering heinously fast he was going in Belgium when stopped recently.
DAZ
Veyron:
I don't know how close to the proposed 1000bhp these pre-production cars had. Close enough for government work, I should think. Sure, there was a powerful acceleration, but you're constantly aware of all the mass that the power is trying to lug around.
The Veyron reminds me of Flavio Briatore - you know, the T-shirt salesman who's wormed his way into the bowels of Formula One. So self-important and mannered, and yet so crude. (What kind of man has his initials embroidered onto his slippers?)
Colloquially we might say that the Veyron "weighs a tonne", except that it weighs two tonnes. These heavy cars just can't cut it. No matter how sophisticated the suspension, powerful the engine or strong the brakes, heavy is bad.
To mimic in 2004 the radiator cowl from an eighty-year-old car does not show a lot of imagination, nor does repeating that shape in the centre console.
Like the SLR, the Veyron doesn't have a proper gearshift. That in itself shows that the car's not meant for driving. Not to mention, as said before, the diamonds on the tach and speedo needles. Wyclef would be proud.
My understanding is that Audi intend to limit the car's top speed to something like 325 kph for the owner's private use. If you wished to do 400, you would need to go to a special test facility, get special wheels and tyres fitted, and then be taken out with a professional driver. That's what I have heard, but I don't know that anything has been finalised (as it couldn't very well be until Audi know whether they're actually going to produce the car).
I get the impression you're not that big a fan of the Veyron then. I have to say it does tend to have a certain vulgarity about it, which is probably the whole intention. On the basis that it will "hopefully" for VW create oodles of sales due to the bling attitude these days. Not my cup of tea either.....what about the 575M HGTC though?
If that's the sporty 575 that's about to be offered, what's the point of a rollcage in a true GT?
The Fiorano pack does make a huge difference, and the car's engine is a gem (how many V12s aren't?) If they could put the car on a 200kg diet it would be really nice. Then if Ferrari would stop making mid-engined sportscars and do only GTs, it might become respectable.
dazren said:
Do 40+kmh over the posted limit and the gendarme may take your english licence from you and effectively stop you from driving on the spot. Make sure Mrs DeR takes her licence with her.
DAZ
DeR
Might add that they've apparently recruited an extra 20,000 gendarmes specially for screwing drivers. Certainly around my way (near Versailles) and in Paris there suddenly seem to be spot check controls of paperwork (I'm OK with that) and mobile radar units (not OK with that!) springing up like a bloody rash.
On the M'way I tend to stick to around 165 km/h (i.e. a fine and few points if caught) and only go back to normal cruising speeds of 180/190 if I can find a "hare" to be foxy behind. Obviously one has to take the chance of a mini-blat here and there just to de-coke the head, but from what I've heard the inside of a french prison really HAS to be avoided - faut pas laisser tomber le savon etc.
So much for pays de la liberté.
DeR,
I try to avoid France if at all possible. Haven't been nicked there, but on the last visit we went through a peage (2 x GT2s and a Skyline GTR) and the Gendarme coming the other way did a u-turn to follow us. We were sticking to the 130kph limit and he went past us at speed, looked closely then pulled off the road at the next exit/petrol station. He then waited for us to pass and pulled out again, to follow us, pass us and then pull in again. This was repeated 3 times. We also saw them later with lasers hidden behind a bridge. This was on the toally deserted autoroute east from Reims to Germany. Given this we stuck to the limit. Then we crossed into Germany on unrestricted autobahns and instantly went 190mph+ to get it out of our systems.
As for Belgium, last year I was caught doing 160kph in an 80kph zone (dual-carriageway with temporary restrictions) and we had a merry little conference with the many officers there, after which they took 550 euros cash fine on-the-spot and said if I was Belgian they would have taken my licence immediately. This year all three got stopped (same convoy above) for doing 150kph in a 120kph zone and finded 175 euros each.
The problem is one of speculation, I don't know if they can actually take your licence and/or car as has been suggested, I just don't want to find out.....
>> Edited by GuyR on Thursday 12th August 12:56
Having experienced first hand a 575M with Fiorano and manual I can attest that it was and is a fantastic car. I can't compare it with a 550M or 575M excluding Fiorano though as I've not had the pleasure.
With regards the rollcage, is this not an optional extra? You'd probably hold out for the Stradale version then...should be along shortly.
With regards the rollcage, is this not an optional extra? You'd probably hold out for the Stradale version then...should be along shortly.
flemke said:
Veyron:
I don't know how close to the proposed 1000bhp these pre-production cars had. Close enough for government work, I should think. Sure, there was a powerful acceleration, but you're constantly aware of all the mass that the power is trying to lug around.
The Veyron reminds me of Flavio Briatore - you know, the T-shirt salesman who's wormed his way into the bowels of Formula One. So self-important and mannered, and yet so crude. (What kind of man has his initials embroidered onto his slippers?)
Colloquially we might say that the Veyron "weighs a tonne", except that it weighs two tonnes. These heavy cars just can't cut it. No matter how sophisticated the suspension, powerful the engine or strong the brakes, heavy is bad.
...
Your comments point to a state of matters where things are produced for image and excess above substance and purity.
Makes me glad when opening the 0-100-0 specials in Autocar each year, the winner tends to be something rather lightweight and rather british.
www.racecar.co.uk/stealth/autocar1004.htm
Even with 1000bhp a skyline isn't as quick as the F1 to 60 or 100.
Out of interest, HAS any standard "super" car done 0-100 quicker than the F1? Reading blurb re: Enzo a while back Ferrari reckoned they wanted to get this from the F1. They failed.... A bit like the impression I was left with after Autocar testing the Keoeoenisesgsggsgs thing - can't say I want it to happen...
RichardD said:
Even with 1000bhp a skyline isn't as quick as the F1 to 60 or 100.
Wrong - roadgoing UK GTRs with 800bhp-1000bhp have recorded quarter-mile times in the high 9s and low 10s many times here in the UK in front of my own eyes - an F1 takes 11.1 according to Autocar.
A road-legal R34 also recorded 0-60mph in 2.8 seconds and 0-100mph in 5.5 secs on a VBox, so definitely fast.
That said they explode very often.
I just got fed up of buying new engines for my GTRs (I had an R33 with 450bhp, R34 with 700bhp and R32 with 1050bhp) hence why I play with a Ruf now.
Guy
Its mostly down to bhp/tonne. I think the Enzo's around 500bhp and the F1, is nearer to 600 (I'm sure somebody will know the exact figures). Its for this reason and that nobody can get anywhere near the weight of the F1 (supercar manufacturers seem to have given up trying) that will keep the F1 at the top of the supercar 0-100-0 times for a long time to come.
GuyR said:
Even with 1000bhp a skyline isn't as quick as the F1 to 60 or 100.
Wrong - roadgoing UK GTRs with 800bhp-1000bhp have recorded quarter-mile times in the high 9s and low 10s many times here in the UK in front of my own eyes - an F1 takes 11.1 according to Autocar.
A road-legal R34 also recorded 0-60mph in 2.8 seconds and 0-100mph in 5.5 secs on a VBox, so definitely fast.
That said they explode very often.
I just got fed up of buying new engines for my GTRs (I had an R33 with 450bhp, R34 with 700bhp and R32 with 1050bhp) hence why I play with a Ruf now.
Guy
Fair enough - the guy in that Autocar may have been taking it easy on the transmission, as no doubt with a car of that type time can be saved with more clutch abuse.
Shame that was on the only one that has ever ventured onto the 0-100-0 day.....
Thats because it's the only one thats ever been invited by Autocar.
There are much faster GTRs in the UK, owned by many friends of mine (I was Chairman of the UK GTR Owners Club), but they never bothered asking me or us for cars............
Two UK GTRs have done 0-155mph in 10.2 seconds and 0-153mph in 9.9 seconds respectively, at Santa Pod and Elvington on official timing gear. By way of comparison an F1 needs 15 seconds to get to 150mph.
That said it is sacrilege to even compare these cars to an F1, since it is so much more than just a set of performance statistics that could be beaten by many yank V8 drag-racers.....
>> Edited by GuyR on Thursday 12th August 13:30
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