OH GOD...my insurance may not be valid....

OH GOD...my insurance may not be valid....

Author
Discussion

joust

14,622 posts

223 months

Wednesday 21st January 2004
quotequote all
hedders said:

Actually...I have already paid for my next years insurance (just got my new policy today) so can they increase it now?
Technically yes. However the claim is not "made" until they pay out, and also in my expierience sometimes small claims don't affect CCI too much anyway.

Sorry.

J

hedders

Original Poster:

24,460 posts

211 months

Thursday 22nd January 2004
quotequote all
joust said:

hedders said:

Actually...I have already paid for my next years insurance (just got my new policy today) so can they increase it now?

Technically yes. However the claim is not "made" until they pay out, and also in my expierience sometimes small claims don't affect CCI too much anyway.

Sorry.

J


CCI

And it will not be a small claim i don't think..I guess it depends what a small claim is. There will be about 2.5k damage to my car when all said and done (new bumper is 800, Bonnet 600, Wing 200, new lights, labour and paint...it soon adds up.

Then there is the car I hit, i caved in the back end of an R reg Civic,(was still driveable) and he went into a newish Mercedes infront of him..the Merc suffered no damage apart from what looked like slight scuff marks on his bumper from the civics front license plate, but the civics front 'bumper' was cracked, so both ends of the car have to be repaired.
and who knows if they are going to all of a sudden get bad back syndrome and sue me for evrything i haven't ogt...
I am sure Merc guy will claim for an entire respray too....

Is that a small claim on the grand scale of things

joust

14,622 posts

223 months

Thursday 22nd January 2004
quotequote all
Classic Car Insurance

And yes - that's "smallish" in the grand scheme of things...

J

nubbin

6,809 posts

242 months

Thursday 22nd January 2004
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CarZee said:
....a Tamora writen off by a driver with inadvertently undeclared points.



Guilty as charged, M'Lud!

"Modifications" really means anything that will affect performance of engine, brakes suspension etc. Cosmetic changes may make the car more attractive, but not always!

Tinted windows - what about asking your local Police to measure the light transmission - if it's within their set limits, it would be deemed roadworthy, and you could at least say that to the insurers as a defence?

GreigM

6,517 posts

213 months

Thursday 22nd January 2004
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nubbin said:


"Modifications" really means anything that will affect performance of engine, brakes suspension etc. Cosmetic changes may make the car more attractive, but not always!


Be careful of this....some insurers, namely Admiral group (Admiral, elephant, Diamond), Direct Line group (Priviledge etc) and Norwich Union consider a modification to be anything which is not to the standard specification of the car. This specifically includes factory-fitted options. Between these 3, they insure the vast majority of cars on the UK roads.

For example, the non-performance enhancing leather seats and air conditioning I got as factory fit extras are deemed as a "modification" and I pay extra premium accordingly.

The same goes for the 18" alloy wheels, traction control, wind deflector, metallic paint, sound system....yes METALLIC PAINT ffs!

I went to the lengths of sending them a copy of the invoice for the car to make sure everything is listed. All-in I pay over 200 a year extra on my insurance to cover all these options, and keep the car legal.

Insurance companies have loss adjusters in order to minimise the payout for the insurance company...if they can prevent a payout on a technicallity then they will try it on, it's their job. You may be able to argue the toss in court, but can you afford to go this route?

Remeber the maserati owner who had his claim denied when he wrote off the car...denied because he had upgraded the ICE....the court upheld the denial and the guy lost about 60K.

steve 944t

138 posts

211 months

Thursday 22nd January 2004
quotequote all
I dont want to upset you, but take a look at the link below as the regulations are changing (or already have changed) regarding tints. With this in mind I would be inclined to be honest with your insurers and throw yourself on their mercy. They are more likely to be cooperative if you explain things to them, and can hardly try to argue that the window tints contributed in any way to your incident.

Best of luck.

www.pentagonglasstech.com/news_legal_update.asp

Steve

Mad Dave

7,025 posts

227 months

Thursday 22nd January 2004
quotequote all
Good luck mate - i hope you have better luck than i did. I crashed and wrote off my mothers car a few years ago, i was fully comp insured on her policy - but on a small technicality they voided. It was only incorrect because the girl at the brokers cocked up the policy and never sent us a 'statement of fact' to sign. The end result being that i had to pay for the car i crashed ( 4500), i had to pay for the Audi i crashed into ( 5000 despite market value being about 2000!) and then they sent me a bill for all her ficticious whiplash claims and solicitors fees etc - another 2500.

Basically ive now finished paying for the car i was driving, but the rest are still ongoing!!

T4R

461 posts

213 months

Thursday 22nd January 2004
quotequote all
GreigM said:

nubbin said:


"Modifications" really means anything that will affect performance of engine, brakes suspension etc. Cosmetic changes may make the car more attractive, but not always!



Be careful of this....some insurers, namely Admiral group (Admiral, elephant, Diamond), Direct Line group (Priviledge etc) and Norwich Union consider a modification to be anything which is not to the standard specification of the car. This specifically includes factory-fitted options......


My insurance is through Volvo Owners and their stance is quite different. If it's a Volvo supplied modification and in their parts catalogue, then it's OK not to declare it. The car is still covered whether its a free flow exhaust (extra 8 bhp ), the lowered self-leveling suspension, a front strut brace, or the dash mounted pipe holder and integrated magazine rack.

Check the small print

Neil_H

15,317 posts

215 months

Thursday 22nd January 2004
quotequote all
Mad Dave said:
Good luck mate - i hope you have better luck than i did. I crashed and wrote off my mothers car a few years ago, i was fully comp insured on her policy - but on a small technicality they voided. It was only incorrect because the girl at the brokers cocked up the policy and never sent us a 'statement of fact' to sign. The end result being that i had to pay for the car i crashed ( 4500), i had to pay for the Audi i crashed into ( 5000 despite market value being about 2000!) and then they sent me a bill for all her ficticious whiplash claims and solicitors fees etc - another 2500.

Basically ive now finished paying for the car i was driving, but the rest are still ongoing!!




I'd be tempted to go round and give her some genuine injuries, just to make sure she was getting her money's worth

Can't you sue the broker for the costs? If it's their fault you shouldn't be paying.

Jamie H

29,469 posts

208 months

Thursday 22nd January 2004
quotequote all
Hi Hedders - Quite a long one.

I am an insurance git, so perhaps I can help you. I must say I don't work in personal lines insurance, but I am taking various exams, some of which have a legal focus.

In exchange for exemption form the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 (and subsequent updates) insurers signed up to the Association of British Insurers (ABI) "Statements of General Insurance Practice". All members of the ABI must comply with this (most motor underwriters will be members, although I admit I haven't heard of Avon). This is voluntary, but in practice ABI members take them as gospel.

Although your vehicle may not have been "modified" when you took out the policy it can have been "modified" during the policy period as you did. It will most likely be a "continuing warranty" that you declare all points, crashes, modifications etc. Therefore your policy could technically be avoided.

However
The ABI Statements of Insurance Practice said:
An insurer will not repudiate liability to indemnify a policyholder: -

on grounds of non-disclosure of a material fact which a policyholder could not reasonably be expected to have disclosed;

on grounds of misrepresentation unless it is a deliberate or negligent misrepresentation of a material fact;

on grounds of a breach of warranty or condition where the circumstances of the loss are unconnected with the breach unless fraud is involved.


As you rear-ended someone presumably your visibility through the side / rear windows was irrelevant, therefore they can not avoid liability. If they dispute for breach of warranty / policy condition then quote this

All info available on the ABI website. Email if you want any help. No Charge .

Jamie

mcflurry

8,779 posts

217 months

Thursday 22nd January 2004
quotequote all
griegm said:
For example, the non-performance enhancing leather seats and air conditioning I got as factory fit extras are deemed as a "modification" and I pay extra premium accordingly.


I too had to list my options such as leather, air, alloys etc. Direct Line didn't charge extra as they were "factory fitted" rather than "dealer fitted". They did insist on locking wheel nuts for the alloys though.

john_p

7,073 posts

214 months

Thursday 22nd January 2004
quotequote all
I telephoned the insurance regulator to clarify their view on factory fitted options and it was as follows;

Firstly, if they ask if you have factory fitted options, you have to tell them.

If they do not specifically ask, factory fitted options are not classed as modifications and do not need to be declared.

Dealer fit options probably would be treated as modifications, and would need to be declared.

Obviously aftermarket mods would need to be declared.

The guy explained that part of the reason behind asking the value of the car is that they can use this to adjust the premium; obviously this is more relevant for new cars but it made sense to me.

Muncher

12,034 posts

213 months

Thursday 22nd January 2004
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Jamie H - Insurers will also try to void it under the second one you listed, it being a deliberate misrepresentation in order to get cheaper insurance.

Jamie H

29,469 posts

208 months

Thursday 22nd January 2004
quotequote all
Muncher said:
Jamie H - Insurers will also try to void it under the second one you listed, it being a deliberate misrepresentation in order to get cheaper insurance.

I was referring to an alteration mid-policy term. Therefore breach of warranty, rather than fraudulent non-disclosure of a material fact.

Mad Dave

7,025 posts

227 months

Thursday 22nd January 2004
quotequote all
Neil_H said:

Mad Dave said:
Good luck mate - i hope you have better luck than i did. I crashed and wrote off my mothers car a few years ago, i was fully comp insured on her policy - but on a small technicality they voided. It was only incorrect because the girl at the brokers cocked up the policy and never sent us a 'statement of fact' to sign. The end result being that i had to pay for the car i crashed ( 4500), i had to pay for the Audi i crashed into ( 5000 despite market value being about 2000!) and then they sent me a bill for all her ficticious whiplash claims and solicitors fees etc - another 2500.

Basically ive now finished paying for the car i was driving, but the rest are still ongoing!!





I'd be tempted to go round and give her some genuine injuries, just to make sure she was getting her money's worth

Can't you sue the broker for the costs? If it's their fault you shouldn't be paying.


We spent nearly two years arguing over it, in the end it all stemmed on the fact they hadnt given us the 'statement of fact' documents so we had no way of correcting them - when we put this to the MD his reply was "well we sent it - take up your issue with Royal Mail. Goodbye"

B@stards.

rich1231

17,300 posts

224 months

Thursday 22nd January 2004
quotequote all
Hedders, surely its clear here that though you are a member of Pistonheads you are taking the pi$$ out of the insurers.
You took out a policy, giving certain details about your car and yourself that were untrue. And you have changed your car since. Those changes are going to have a material effect on the risk the insurers have faced. Wht didnt you just tell them at the time modifications and ints were gained. You cant expect them to payout if you have taken the urine in this way.

Neil_H

15,317 posts

215 months

Thursday 22nd January 2004
quotequote all
Mad Dave said:

Neil_H said:


Mad Dave said:
Good luck mate - i hope you have better luck than i did. I crashed and wrote off my mothers car a few years ago, i was fully comp insured on her policy - but on a small technicality they voided. It was only incorrect because the girl at the brokers cocked up the policy and never sent us a 'statement of fact' to sign. The end result being that i had to pay for the car i crashed ( 4500), i had to pay for the Audi i crashed into ( 5000 despite market value being about 2000!) and then they sent me a bill for all her ficticious whiplash claims and solicitors fees etc - another 2500.

Basically ive now finished paying for the car i was driving, but the rest are still ongoing!!






I'd be tempted to go round and give her some genuine injuries, just to make sure she was getting her money's worth

Can't you sue the broker for the costs? If it's their fault you shouldn't be paying.



We spent nearly two years arguing over it, in the end it all stemmed on the fact they hadnt given us the 'statement of fact' documents so we had no way of correcting them - when we put this to the MD his reply was "well we sent it - take up your issue with Royal Mail. Goodbye"

B@stards.


Surely it would be up to them to prove that they sent it, ie recorded delivery etc? Did you get a solicitor on the case?

B@stards indeed, if that happened to me it would take a great deal of self control to stop me firebombing their office! (during work hours)

GreigM

6,517 posts

213 months

Thursday 22nd January 2004
quotequote all
Mad Dave said:
Good luck mate - i hope you have better luck than i did. I crashed and wrote off my mothers car a few years ago, i was fully comp insured on her policy - but on a small technicality they voided. It was only incorrect because the girl at the brokers cocked up the policy and never sent us a 'statement of fact' to sign. The end result being that i had to pay for the car i crashed ( 4500), i had to pay for the Audi i crashed into ( 5000 despite market value being about 2000!) and then they sent me a bill for all her ficticious whiplash claims and solicitors fees etc - another 2500.

Basically ive now finished paying for the car i was driving, but the rest are still ongoing!!



I'm surprised at this, I would have thought the fact that they took your money would mean that they were acting as if there was a legal contract..so it can be upheld.

Alternatively I would use the postal acceptance rule against them and say, yup, got the forms and sent em back..why, didn't you get them...must've got lost in the mail.

i.e. use their own ploy against them.

Mad Dave

7,025 posts

227 months

Thursday 22nd January 2004
quotequote all
We spent ages fighting it - they couldnt prove they sent it, but equally they couldnt prove that we agreed to the policy wording. We even went to the insurance ombudsman but they said that they only deal with cases AFTER theyre concluded and they then decide if weve been treated unfairly!

In the end it was easier to just pay - as soon as the car was written off the finance company transferred the remaining debt to a debt collectors (as the collateral wasnt there any more) without even telling us and despite the fact we were still paying the monthly installments. As a result my credit rating is through the floor - i cant even get a contract mobile any more!

hedders

Original Poster:

24,460 posts

211 months

Thursday 22nd January 2004
quotequote all
rich1231 said:
Hedders, surely its clear here that though you are a member of Pistonheads you are taking the pi$$ out of the insurers.
You took out a policy, giving certain details about your car and yourself that were untrue. And you have changed your car since. Those changes are going to have a material effect on the risk the insurers have faced. Wht didnt you just tell them at the time modifications and ints were gained. You cant expect them to payout if you have taken the urine in this way.


How am i taking the piss???

I have spent 8k doing the car up and only expect them to pay me back market value if i write it off...i have never given them any false information about me or the car, and have not modified its peformance in any way.

I am not sure i am with you. I have had insurance with them for five consecutive years now and never claimed.

Yeah, i am real piss taker