Lewis Hamilton
Discussion
paulguitar said:
Durzel said:
Hamilton would absolutely not be winning championships over and over if he was still in a McLaren, I don't know how anyone could suggest otherwise.
Has anyone suggested that?Durzel said:
Not being facetious but can you really differentiate between drivers when the machinery plays such a huge part?
It's not like you're comparing LeBron James or Usain Bolt to the competition, where their physicality, intelligence, skill, etc is all what sets them apart.
Hamilton would absolutely not be winning championships over and over if he was still in a McLaren, I don't know how anyone could suggest otherwise. He would certainly be wringing the absolute best out of those cars, but would he be consistently beating - say - Ricciardo if he were the one in the 2014 on Mercedes?
Unfortunately that is F1, but I think as a general rule it's not black and white comparing champions when the machinery they're in, and how much better it was relative to the competition whenever they were winning, is a major factor. I'd argue it's possibly even 60/40 driver/car in terms of contribution.
It just happens to be the case that he is a great driver in the best car, he is not somehow stratospherically better than everyone else on the grid, though he is better than most for sure. His time in the 4th place on and midfield wilderness with McLaren is evidence of how big a factor the car (and the competition at the time) is.
But if you look at how many times the other driver in his team have beaten him, you get an idea of how good he is.It's not like you're comparing LeBron James or Usain Bolt to the competition, where their physicality, intelligence, skill, etc is all what sets them apart.
Hamilton would absolutely not be winning championships over and over if he was still in a McLaren, I don't know how anyone could suggest otherwise. He would certainly be wringing the absolute best out of those cars, but would he be consistently beating - say - Ricciardo if he were the one in the 2014 on Mercedes?
Unfortunately that is F1, but I think as a general rule it's not black and white comparing champions when the machinery they're in, and how much better it was relative to the competition whenever they were winning, is a major factor. I'd argue it's possibly even 60/40 driver/car in terms of contribution.
It just happens to be the case that he is a great driver in the best car, he is not somehow stratospherically better than everyone else on the grid, though he is better than most for sure. His time in the 4th place on and midfield wilderness with McLaren is evidence of how big a factor the car (and the competition at the time) is.
The most recent won a world championship (with a large slice of luck) and had to retire because he couldn't keep up the intensity. All while Lewis was jetting around the world having a good time.
Durzel said:
It just happens to be the case that he is a great driver in the best car, he is not somehow stratospherically better than everyone else on the grid, though he is better than most for sure.
Aren't Bottas and Gasley representative of the other drivers on the grid?I would say that Jim Clark probably was stratospherically better than most of the other drivers on his grid, but obviously other drivers who are just as good are going to come along, and they're going to beat the other drivers on the grid too.
How do you know that the current cars don't mask how good a given driver truly is? It's not like Jim Clark's day when there would be truly significant differences in the cars, such as rear-engined v front-engined, monocoque v spaceframe or chassis, DFV or none-DFV, wings v no-wings, and so on.
Earlier in the thread someone said a dozen drivers would be champion LH's car. When McLaren won 15 of 16 races, Alain Prost (Alain Prost!) still couldn't win the championship, so it mystifies me when people say any sundry journeyman F1 driver would win. They wouldn't because there'd always be someone better in the other car, and you work that one all the way up to Alain Prost who imo was head and shoulders above most. His season at Ferrari when he nearly beat Senna and blew team-mate Mansell out of the water was a classic example.
heebeegeetee said:
Earlier in the thread someone said a dozen drivers would be champion LH's car. When McLaren won 15 of 16 races, Alain Prost (Alain Prost!) still couldn't win the championship, so it mystifies me when people say any sundry journeyman F1 driver would win. They wouldn't because there'd always be someone better in the other car, and you work that one all the way up to Alain Prost who imo was head and shoulders above most. His season at Ferrari when he nearly beat Senna and blew team-mate Mansell out of the water was a classic example.
The depth of talent on the current grid must be a factor? The increasing professionalism of the sport, the superlicence system etc etc. paulguitar said:
Durzel said:
Hamilton would absolutely not be winning championships over and over if he was still in a McLaren, I don't know how anyone could suggest otherwise.
Has anyone suggested that?However, for him to stay, McLaren would need to have been a different team before he left which, of course, didn't happen. He left because he didn't think the change would either happen or be effective, & he was proven correct, whereas he gambled on Mercedes achieving, which they did. We only get to see the one version play out. It could be argued that spotting that potential is the mark of a true champion...
Mr Tidy said:
angrymoby said:
Durzel said:
Yup, one of them even retired afterwards 
& if we only we knew how good that retiring driver actually was I don't think he would ever have managed another title.
Clearly his efforts paid off, but it's hardly sustainable year upon year. Nonetheless, very impressive that he managed to identify how to beat Lewis and was able to apply what was needed in a year long mental effort.
A few choice quotes from Rosberg here: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gpfans.com/amp/ar...
Bo_apex said:
37chevy said:
Bo_apex said:
Well said.
Although unlike Clarke and Co unfortunately Lewis didn't really shine for a few years, between 2009 and 2013.
Seems he really needed to get the Mercedes seat. Thankfully Lauda was persuasive.
I think he shone, just wish a fairly naff car you can’t completely show your thing, just like Schumacher had a few rough years with Benetton and the initial Ferrari’s. Although unlike Clarke and Co unfortunately Lewis didn't really shine for a few years, between 2009 and 2013.
Seems he really needed to get the Mercedes seat. Thankfully Lauda was persuasive.
Fangio is probably the only exception but then he always switched so he was in the best car at all times
Next 2 full seasons were both WDC, while adapting to different engines, Ford then Renault.
Fangio was also great at adapting.
He also made the '96, '97, '98 Ferraris race winners and title contenders, certainly not what you could call rough years
Durzel said:
Not being facetious but can you really differentiate between drivers when the machinery plays such a huge part?
It's not like you're comparing LeBron James or Usain Bolt to the competition, where their physicality, intelligence, skill, etc is all what sets them apart.
Hamilton would absolutely not be winning championships over and over if he was still in a McLaren, I don't know how anyone could suggest otherwise. He would certainly be wringing the absolute best out of those cars, but would he be consistently beating - say - Ricciardo if he were the one in the 2014 on Mercedes?
The counter argument to this is to ask whether a Pastor Maldonado or a Jolyon Palmer in the Mercedes would be a multiple world champion. It's not like you're comparing LeBron James or Usain Bolt to the competition, where their physicality, intelligence, skill, etc is all what sets them apart.
Hamilton would absolutely not be winning championships over and over if he was still in a McLaren, I don't know how anyone could suggest otherwise. He would certainly be wringing the absolute best out of those cars, but would he be consistently beating - say - Ricciardo if he were the one in the 2014 on Mercedes?
It's one of the subtleties of F1 that make appreciation of it the preserve of the enthusiast rather than the casual observer. F1 is very much a team sport and like all teams, the most successful are those that recruit the best people available to them including of course, the driver. Thus, the best drivers tend to be with the best teams (though not always).
StevieBee said:
Durzel said:
Not being facetious but can you really differentiate between drivers when the machinery plays such a huge part?
It's not like you're comparing LeBron James or Usain Bolt to the competition, where their physicality, intelligence, skill, etc is all what sets them apart.
Hamilton would absolutely not be winning championships over and over if he was still in a McLaren, I don't know how anyone could suggest otherwise. He would certainly be wringing the absolute best out of those cars, but would he be consistently beating - say - Ricciardo if he were the one in the 2014 on Mercedes?
The counter argument to this is to ask whether a Pastor Maldonado or a Jolyon Palmer in the Mercedes would be a multiple world champion. It's not like you're comparing LeBron James or Usain Bolt to the competition, where their physicality, intelligence, skill, etc is all what sets them apart.
Hamilton would absolutely not be winning championships over and over if he was still in a McLaren, I don't know how anyone could suggest otherwise. He would certainly be wringing the absolute best out of those cars, but would he be consistently beating - say - Ricciardo if he were the one in the 2014 on Mercedes?
It's one of the subtleties of F1 that make appreciation of it the preserve of the enthusiast rather than the casual observer. F1 is very much a team sport and like all teams, the most successful are those that recruit the best people available to them including of course, the driver. Thus, the best drivers tend to be with the best teams (though not always).
slipstream 1985 said:
StevieBee said:
Durzel said:
Not being facetious but can you really differentiate between drivers when the machinery plays such a huge part?
It's not like you're comparing LeBron James or Usain Bolt to the competition, where their physicality, intelligence, skill, etc is all what sets them apart.
Hamilton would absolutely not be winning championships over and over if he was still in a McLaren, I don't know how anyone could suggest otherwise. He would certainly be wringing the absolute best out of those cars, but would he be consistently beating - say - Ricciardo if he were the one in the 2014 on Mercedes?
The counter argument to this is to ask whether a Pastor Maldonado or a Jolyon Palmer in the Mercedes would be a multiple world champion. It's not like you're comparing LeBron James or Usain Bolt to the competition, where their physicality, intelligence, skill, etc is all what sets them apart.
Hamilton would absolutely not be winning championships over and over if he was still in a McLaren, I don't know how anyone could suggest otherwise. He would certainly be wringing the absolute best out of those cars, but would he be consistently beating - say - Ricciardo if he were the one in the 2014 on Mercedes?
It's one of the subtleties of F1 that make appreciation of it the preserve of the enthusiast rather than the casual observer. F1 is very much a team sport and like all teams, the most successful are those that recruit the best people available to them including of course, the driver. Thus, the best drivers tend to be with the best teams (though not always).
Lewis says he’s performing better than ever on a vegan diet and he’s not the only one... it’s the future and as usual, he's ahead of the curve.
He’s also exec producer on a film about this stuff, with Jackie Chan, Arnie, James Cameron, Novak Djokovic and more:
https://gamechangersmovie.com/
He’s also exec producer on a film about this stuff, with Jackie Chan, Arnie, James Cameron, Novak Djokovic and more:
https://gamechangersmovie.com/
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