Lewis Hamilton

Lewis Hamilton

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CustardOnChips

680 posts

17 months

Thursday 8th August 2019
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Durzel said:
Not being facetious but can you really differentiate between drivers when the machinery plays such a huge part?

It's not like you're comparing LeBron James or Usain Bolt to the competition, where their physicality, intelligence, skill, etc is all what sets them apart.

Hamilton would absolutely not be winning championships over and over if he was still in a McLaren, I don't know how anyone could suggest otherwise. He would certainly be wringing the absolute best out of those cars, but would he be consistently beating - say - Ricciardo if he were the one in the 2014 on Mercedes?

Unfortunately that is F1, but I think as a general rule it's not black and white comparing champions when the machinery they're in, and how much better it was relative to the competition whenever they were winning, is a major factor. I'd argue it's possibly even 60/40 driver/car in terms of contribution.

It just happens to be the case that he is a great driver in the best car, he is not somehow stratospherically better than everyone else on the grid, though he is better than most for sure. His time in the 4th place on and midfield wilderness with McLaren is evidence of how big a factor the car (and the competition at the time) is.
But if you look at how many times the other driver in his team have beaten him, you get an idea of how good he is.

The most recent won a world championship (with a large slice of luck) and had to retire because he couldn't keep up the intensity. All while Lewis was jetting around the world having a good time.

angrymoby

1,069 posts

133 months

Thursday 8th August 2019
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Durzel said:
Yup, one of them even retired afterwards wink
& if we only knew how good that retiring driver actually was wink



Edited by angrymoby on Thursday 15th August 09:17

heebeegeetee

26,938 posts

203 months

Thursday 8th August 2019
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Durzel said:
It just happens to be the case that he is a great driver in the best car, he is not somehow stratospherically better than everyone else on the grid, though he is better than most for sure.
Aren't Bottas and Gasley representative of the other drivers on the grid?

I would say that Jim Clark probably was stratospherically better than most of the other drivers on his grid, but obviously other drivers who are just as good are going to come along, and they're going to beat the other drivers on the grid too.

How do you know that the current cars don't mask how good a given driver truly is? It's not like Jim Clark's day when there would be truly significant differences in the cars, such as rear-engined v front-engined, monocoque v spaceframe or chassis, DFV or none-DFV, wings v no-wings, and so on.

Earlier in the thread someone said a dozen drivers would be champion LH's car. When McLaren won 15 of 16 races, Alain Prost (Alain Prost!) still couldn't win the championship, so it mystifies me when people say any sundry journeyman F1 driver would win. They wouldn't because there'd always be someone better in the other car, and you work that one all the way up to Alain Prost who imo was head and shoulders above most. His season at Ferrari when he nearly beat Senna and blew team-mate Mansell out of the water was a classic example.

HustleRussell

17,905 posts

115 months

Thursday 8th August 2019
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heebeegeetee said:
Earlier in the thread someone said a dozen drivers would be champion LH's car. When McLaren won 15 of 16 races, Alain Prost (Alain Prost!) still couldn't win the championship, so it mystifies me when people say any sundry journeyman F1 driver would win. They wouldn't because there'd always be someone better in the other car, and you work that one all the way up to Alain Prost who imo was head and shoulders above most. His season at Ferrari when he nearly beat Senna and blew team-mate Mansell out of the water was a classic example.
The depth of talent on the current grid must be a factor? The increasing professionalism of the sport, the superlicence system etc etc.

angrymoby

1,069 posts

133 months

Thursday 8th August 2019
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HustleRussell said:
The depth of talent on the current grid must be a factor? The increasing professionalism of the sport, the superlicence system etc etc.
& less fatalities/ career ending injuries

& up until fairly recently we had 5/6 WDC'ers on the grid for a fair few years

MarkwG

2,315 posts

144 months

Thursday 8th August 2019
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paulguitar said:
Durzel said:
Hamilton would absolutely not be winning championships over and over if he was still in a McLaren, I don't know how anyone could suggest otherwise.
Has anyone suggested that?
Except, when you're talking "what ifs?" you can't assume the McLaren we've seen since he left, would be the same car if he'd stayed. Every binary decision has a consequential effect, so leaving changes the outcome, but so does staying. Behind the scenes, if he'd stayed, the team may have behaved differently, brought in or changed sponsors, suppliers, a different team mate - or none of those. He may have won nothing, or one or more championships.

However, for him to stay, McLaren would need to have been a different team before he left which, of course, didn't happen. He left because he didn't think the change would either happen or be effective, & he was proven correct, whereas he gambled on Mercedes achieving, which they did. We only get to see the one version play out. It could be argued that spotting that potential is the mark of a true champion...

NRS

15,918 posts

156 months

Thursday 8th August 2019
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Same as Alonso has done...

Mr Tidy

11,380 posts

82 months

Wednesday 14th August 2019
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angrymoby said:
Durzel said:
Yup, one of them even retired afterwards wink
& if we only we knew how good that retiring driver actually was wink
Well even if we didn't, I think he knew - which is why he retired once he had managed to win!

I don't think he would ever have managed another title.

TheDeuce

5,701 posts

21 months

Wednesday 14th August 2019
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Mr Tidy said:
angrymoby said:
Durzel said:
Yup, one of them even retired afterwards wink
& if we only we knew how good that retiring driver actually was wink
Well even if we didn't, I think he knew - which is why he retired once he had managed to win!

I don't think he would ever have managed another title.
He's said as much himself on various occasions. He had to put his entire personal life on hold for a year to focus 100% on gaining the calm, focus and composure that Lewis finds naturally to get the job done. And still only just got it done.

Clearly his efforts paid off, but it's hardly sustainable year upon year. Nonetheless, very impressive that he managed to identify how to beat Lewis and was able to apply what was needed in a year long mental effort.

A few choice quotes from Rosberg here: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gpfans.com/amp/ar...


TobyTR

851 posts

101 months

Wednesday 14th August 2019
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Bo_apex said:
37chevy said:
Bo_apex said:
Well said.

Although unlike Clarke and Co unfortunately Lewis didn't really shine for a few years, between 2009 and 2013.

Seems he really needed to get the Mercedes seat. Thankfully Lauda was persuasive.
I think he shone, just wish a fairly naff car you can’t completely show your thing, just like Schumacher had a few rough years with Benetton and the initial Ferrari’s.

Fangio is probably the only exception but then he always switched so he was in the best car at all times
I think Schumacher had 11 DNF's in the first 2 full seasons at Benetton, something we don't see much of nowadays due to excellent reliability.

Next 2 full seasons were both WDC, while adapting to different engines, Ford then Renault.

Fangio was also great at adapting.
Yup. Schumacher finished ahead of teammate Nelson Piquet in his first race for Benetton in '91. Then he managed to finish ahead of Senna in the WDC in 1992 (3rd) - in his first full year in F1 and at Benetton, best-of-the-rest behind the all-conquering Williams. In 1993 every race Schumacher finished was on the podium, including one win, while teammate Brundle was finishing between 5th-14th...

He also made the '96, '97, '98 Ferraris race winners and title contenders, certainly not what you could call rough years

StevieBee

8,737 posts

210 months

Wednesday 14th August 2019
quotequote all
Durzel said:
Not being facetious but can you really differentiate between drivers when the machinery plays such a huge part?

It's not like you're comparing LeBron James or Usain Bolt to the competition, where their physicality, intelligence, skill, etc is all what sets them apart.

Hamilton would absolutely not be winning championships over and over if he was still in a McLaren, I don't know how anyone could suggest otherwise. He would certainly be wringing the absolute best out of those cars, but would he be consistently beating - say - Ricciardo if he were the one in the 2014 on Mercedes?
The counter argument to this is to ask whether a Pastor Maldonado or a Jolyon Palmer in the Mercedes would be a multiple world champion.

It's one of the subtleties of F1 that make appreciation of it the preserve of the enthusiast rather than the casual observer. F1 is very much a team sport and like all teams, the most successful are those that recruit the best people available to them including of course, the driver. Thus, the best drivers tend to be with the best teams (though not always).






slipstream 1985

7,101 posts

134 months

Wednesday 14th August 2019
quotequote all
StevieBee said:
Durzel said:
Not being facetious but can you really differentiate between drivers when the machinery plays such a huge part?

It's not like you're comparing LeBron James or Usain Bolt to the competition, where their physicality, intelligence, skill, etc is all what sets them apart.

Hamilton would absolutely not be winning championships over and over if he was still in a McLaren, I don't know how anyone could suggest otherwise. He would certainly be wringing the absolute best out of those cars, but would he be consistently beating - say - Ricciardo if he were the one in the 2014 on Mercedes?
The counter argument to this is to ask whether a Pastor Maldonado or a Jolyon Palmer in the Mercedes would be a multiple world champion.

It's one of the subtleties of F1 that make appreciation of it the preserve of the enthusiast rather than the casual observer. F1 is very much a team sport and like all teams, the most successful are those that recruit the best people available to them including of course, the driver. Thus, the best drivers tend to be with the best teams (though not always).
If a car wins the championship and the sister car does not finish 2nd (without some extenuating circumstance) you could argue the driver made the difference.

Halmyre

8,183 posts

94 months

Wednesday 14th August 2019
quotequote all
slipstream 1985 said:
StevieBee said:
Durzel said:
Not being facetious but can you really differentiate between drivers when the machinery plays such a huge part?

It's not like you're comparing LeBron James or Usain Bolt to the competition, where their physicality, intelligence, skill, etc is all what sets them apart.

Hamilton would absolutely not be winning championships over and over if he was still in a McLaren, I don't know how anyone could suggest otherwise. He would certainly be wringing the absolute best out of those cars, but would he be consistently beating - say - Ricciardo if he were the one in the 2014 on Mercedes?
The counter argument to this is to ask whether a Pastor Maldonado or a Jolyon Palmer in the Mercedes would be a multiple world champion.

It's one of the subtleties of F1 that make appreciation of it the preserve of the enthusiast rather than the casual observer. F1 is very much a team sport and like all teams, the most successful are those that recruit the best people available to them including of course, the driver. Thus, the best drivers tend to be with the best teams (though not always).
If a car wins the championship and the sister car does not finish 2nd (without some extenuating circumstance) you could argue the driver made the difference.
Out of 69 Drivers' World Championships, 20 resulted with a 1-2 finish for the same team (green):


CABC

3,374 posts

56 months

Wednesday 14th August 2019
quotequote all
Halmyre said:
Out of 69 Drivers' World Championships, 20 resulted with a 1-2 finish for the same team (green):
funny thing about that list is that since the 70s only one team has managed four 1-2 WDC titles. Merc & Ferrari on 3.
in part, the Adrian factor.

CoolHands

10,951 posts

150 months

Thursday 29th August 2019
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Looks like he’s going to waste his money in restaurants like all celebs



Also, plant based meat biglaugh

TheDeuce

5,701 posts

21 months

Thursday 29th August 2019
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CoolHands said:
Also, plant based meat biglaugh
Exactly lol. I eat a lot of plant based meat... Cow eats plants, I eat cow. The veggies are still not convinced it's a fair arrangement though frown

vdn

7,521 posts

158 months

Thursday 29th August 2019
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Lewis says he’s performing better than ever on a vegan diet and he’s not the only one... it’s the future and as usual, he's ahead of the curve.

He’s also exec producer on a film about this stuff, with Jackie Chan, Arnie, James Cameron, Novak Djokovic and more:

https://gamechangersmovie.com/

TheDeuce

5,701 posts

21 months

Thursday 29th August 2019
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vdn said:
Lewis says he’s performing better than ever on a vegan diet and he’s not the only one... it’s the future and as usual, he's ahead of the curve.

He’s also exec producer on a film about this stuff, with Jackie Chan, Arnie, James Cameron, Novak Djokovic and more:

https://gamechangersmovie.com/
Well... in spite of my previous jokey comments (I love meat, BBQ, rustic food...) I do think that along with the rest of our species' habits, diets should also evolve... He's probably on to something!

What's interesting about Lewis is that he's so trendy and aware - connected to the wider world way beyond F1, yet he shows the traits and performance of someone who lives, breathes and sleeps F1. I suppose that's what could be called a natural talent.

I think we might have to wait quite a long time before another driver quite so complete and built for F1 turns up. Max is insanely talented in so many ways but when you compare him or any other driver to the complete package of LH there is always something lacking. And now I sound like a fanboy, which I really am not - but there comes a point at which any sane person should acknowledge a competitors achievements and talents I think. Even if he apparently has to give up meat and dairy to perform so well frown

vdn

7,521 posts

158 months

Thursday 29th August 2019
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
vdn said:
Lewis says he’s performing better than ever on a vegan diet and he’s not the only one... it’s the future and as usual, he's ahead of the curve.

He’s also exec producer on a film about this stuff, with Jackie Chan, Arnie, James Cameron, Novak Djokovic and more:

https://gamechangersmovie.com/
Well... in spite of my previous jokey comments (I love meat, BBQ, rustic food...) I do think that along with the rest of our species' habits, diets should also evolve... He's probably on to something!

What's interesting about Lewis is that he's so trendy and aware - connected to the wider world way beyond F1, yet he shows the traits and performance of someone who lives, breathes and sleeps F1. I suppose that's what could be called a natural talent.

I think we might have to wait quite a long time before another driver quite so complete and built for F1 turns up. Max is insanely talented in so many ways but when you compare him or any other driver to the complete package of LH there is always something lacking. And now I sound like a fanboy, which I really am not - but there comes a point at which any sane person should acknowledge a competitors achievements and talents I think. Even if he apparently has to give up meat and dairy to perform so well frown
Agreed. Like one of the athletes in the trailer says; when the performances of your competitors get close; you look for an edge and it seems that Hamilton, along with Novak etc are seeing that in plant based protein. Interesting stuff.

eccles

11,718 posts

177 months

Friday 30th August 2019
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vdn said:
Lewis says he’s performing better than ever on a vegan diet and he’s not the only one... it’s the future and as usual, he's ahead of the curve.

He’s also exec producer on a film about this stuff, with Jackie Chan, Arnie, James Cameron, Novak Djokovic and more:

https://gamechangersmovie.com/
You say ahead of the curve, I'd say just jumping on the bandwagon! Vegan, or vegetarian diets are nothing new and are currently flavour of the month coming on the back of climate change/global warming. He's just tapping into the zeitgeist.