Lewis Hamilton

Lewis Hamilton

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kiseca

7,603 posts

165 months

Friday 4th October
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rdjohn said:
kambites said:
yes F1 has always been about the cars first and the drivers second. Change that and it would, IMO, no longer be F1.
I think that you are going to be disappointed some time soon.

A key objective of Liberty is to dumb-down car design and put the driver in control. I guess that they would be happy to lose the 1% of fans that actually care about the technical design, in order to gain another 10% who currently would rather spend their time at a PC console playing, rather than watch the same 6 cars / drivers act out the script that has been pre-determined on simulators and finessed during FP sessions.

At the moment the media is building up a massive feud between Seb and Charles. It makes for good reading and Social Media speculation.

The fact that Ferrari have made a genuine leap in technology since the summer break, is the really hot news. We can see the result, but no one has an idea what they have done, because it is a secret. As we are not likely to find out in the future, it is hard to understand why someone might think the technological race is all-important.
I think, if what we all wanted was a premier series in equally matched or spec cars, A1 GP would have fared better. I know that was broken a lot by mismanagement though, so it also doesn't seem to be remembered much on here either so maybe I was in a minority in enjoying it.

Formula E, I suppose, has similar potential.

Graveworm

2,470 posts

17 months

Friday 4th October
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rdjohn said:
That does not explain the significant shift in straight line performance. Increased power of the P3 unit does not seem to show in the customer cars, but back-to-back with Mercedes it was obvious. Lewis could pull time back in corners, so it does not seem to be aero.

But this is my beef - we just do not know, because it is secret. And therefore useless as a reasonable sporting milestone.

If you look at another high-tech sport like Americas Cup, by the end of the series it is usually obvious why a team won. The best boat tends to get to be the challenger, but the best crew tends to win.
I don't think it's so much an improvement in the P3 unit. For the whole season the Ferrari seems to have the better low downforce package, more power from the ICE and better deployment. The straight line performance has been better all season and most of last. What looks to have changed, since the break, is that Ferrari now have an improved aero package for medium downforce circuits. If they had that from Australia this might be a different championship.


TheDeuce

3,138 posts

12 months

Friday 4th October
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Graveworm said:
I don't think it's so much an improvement in the P3 unit. For the whole season the Ferrari seems to have the better low downforce package, more power from the ICE and better deployment. The straight line performance has been better all season and most of last. What looks to have changed, since the break, is that Ferrari now have an improved aero package for medium downforce circuits. If they had that from Australia this might be a different championship.
It could have been just about neck and neck if they had had such a package from the start - potentially at least. I think Mercedes would still take the lead due to a marginally better overall package for the full season's worth of tracks, and frankly, making far less mistakes than Ferrari and their increasingly flaky German driver.

Certainly something for Mercedes to think on going into next season though.. Although I'm somewhat confident that if they care about one thing in their F1 future, it's throwing all resources at making certain next season is theirs too.

Bo_apex

997 posts

164 months

Friday 4th October
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paulguitar said:
Bo_apex said:
And Mercedes today remains the best package over race distance.
Even if that were true, it is moot when the Ferrari currently has a significant qualifying advantage and is quantifiably faster on the straights. I suspect if Hamilton were given a choice of car at the moment he would pick a red one.

Also if Hamilton were a Ferrari driver, you’d be claiming that the Ferrari is the car which is the ‘better package over a race distance’. It’s clear you have a particular drum you always beat.


Edited by paulguitar on Thursday 3rd October 09:40
Hardly.

If Hamilton could pedal a piece of recalcitrant poo I would applaud it.
His results with McLaren from 2009 show that he cannot hustle a subpar car. His theoretical employment at Ferrari over the past few years would have made zero difference to the Scuderia.

Journeyman Bottas being 2nd in the WDC underscores the superiority of the Brackley car and team, apart from when it rains at Hockenheim

Ferrari now has some speed and it's good that CLC seems able to exploit it



Edited by Bo_apex on Friday 4th October 22:20

paulguitar

3,518 posts

59 months

Friday 4th October
quotequote all
Bo_apex said:
If Hamilton could pedal a piece of recalcitrant poo I would applaud it.
His results with McLaren from 2009 show that he cannot hustle a subpar car.

Edited by Bo_apex on Friday 4th October 22:20
I take it then you were similarly unimpressed by Alonso and Button in the McLaren Honda?

I think it’s been pretty well established that an uncompetitive car cannot be taken far beyond its shortcomings in modern F1, the best that can be hoped for is to beat one’s teammate. In 2009 Hamilton placed 5th in the WDC, his teammate 12th, with fewer than half the points of Hamilton.

Also, Hamilton won with that 2009 McLaren. Twice.

I don't know what you’re smoking, but I want to try some!

Bo_apex

997 posts

164 months

Friday 4th October
quotequote all
paulguitar said:
an uncompetitive car cannot be taken far beyond its shortcomings in modern F1, the best that can be hoped for is to beat one’s teammate.
Try telling that to Max

paulguitar

3,518 posts

59 months

Friday 4th October
quotequote all
Bo_apex said:
Try telling that to Max
Well yep, he is doing exactly what one would expect of a top driver in a good, but not the best car.

He's not often winning in it, which is just what we would expect. From time to time at certain circuits in certain conditions, he can win.

TheDeuce

3,138 posts

12 months

Saturday 5th October
quotequote all
paulguitar said:
Bo_apex said:
Try telling that to Max
Well yep, he is doing exactly what one would expect of a top driver in a good, but not the best car.

He's not often winning in it, which is just what we would expect. From time to time at certain circuits in certain conditions, he can win.
I agree, he isn't driving beyond the cars limits (which is a nonsense idea in any case), he's just very good and subsequently gets closer than most to the cars limits.

I accept he's perhaps at least as good or maybe even better than the rest at wringing out the last drop - but in the end he's still car limited. The car sets the potential, the driver strives to maximise that potential. If it ever appears that a driver is driving beyond the cars limits, then the slightly less media friendly reality is that his team mate simply isn't as close to the limit.


vdn

6,789 posts

149 months

Saturday 5th October
quotequote all
Bo_apex said:
Hardly.

If Hamilton could pedal a piece of recalcitrant poo I would applaud it.
His results with McLaren from 2009 show that he cannot hustle a subpar car. His theoretical employment at Ferrari over the past few years would have made zero difference to the Scuderia.

Journeyman Bottas being 2nd in the WDC underscores the superiority of the Brackley car and team, apart from when it rains at Hockenheim

Ferrari now has some speed and it's good that CLC seems able to exploit it



Edited by Bo_apex on Friday 4th October 22:20
Bizarre post. The likes of Luca and Alonso disagree with you.

What does that say hehe

Durzel

7,837 posts

114 months

Saturday 5th October
quotequote all
No one is disputing or explaining how Bottas is 2nd in the WDC.

Presumably all those that are taking issue with Bo_apex’s post are accepting of the fact that Bottas has emerged from the wilderness to become a st hot WDC title contender....

Hmm...

Graveworm

2,470 posts

17 months

Saturday 5th October
quotequote all
Durzel said:
No one is disputing or explaining how Bottas is 2nd in the WDC.


Presumably all those that are taking issue with Bo_apex’s post are accepting of the fact that Bottas has emerged from the wilderness to become a st hot WDC title contender....

Hmm...
He won the GP3 championship before F1 and comfortably beat his teammate for his first 4 seasons in F1 Before coming to Merc. Not sure what more he could have done.

Durzel

7,837 posts

114 months

Saturday 5th October
quotequote all
What’s that got to do with his overall position on track though? Beating his teammate is an irrelevant stat beyond being noticed.

His stats speak for themselves, the highest place he achieved pre-Merc was 3rd, once. Joins Mercedes and is knocking out 2nds and even race wins, and is 2nd in the WDC standings.

No one is saying that he’s a crap driver, but the results clearly tell the story.

CustardOnChips

258 posts

8 months

Saturday 5th October
quotequote all
vdn said:
Bo_apex said:
Hardly.

If Hamilton could pedal a piece of recalcitrant poo I would applaud it.
His results with McLaren from 2009 show that he cannot hustle a subpar car. His theoretical employment at Ferrari over the past few years would have made zero difference to the Scuderia.

Journeyman Bottas being 2nd in the WDC underscores the superiority of the Brackley car and team, apart from when it rains at Hockenheim

Ferrari now has some speed and it's good that CLC seems able to exploit it



Edited by Bo_apex on Friday 4th October 22:20
Bizarre post. The likes of Luca and Alonso disagree with you.

What does that say hehe
Says it's another moron on a wind up!




rdjohn

3,717 posts

141 months

Saturday 5th October
quotequote all
Graveworm said:
I don't think it's so much an improvement in the P3 unit. For the whole season the Ferrari seems to have the better low downforce package, more power from the ICE and better deployment. The straight line performance has been better all season and most of last. What looks to have changed, since the break, is that Ferrari now have an improved aero package for medium downforce circuits. If they had that from Australia this might be a different championship.
I don’t know which low down force circuits you are thinking of, but at Baku, Montreal and Silverstone, Mercedes won - Valteri at Baku.

As I mentioned before, Lewis could pul back time on the Ferrari in the corners of Sochi, but lost 0.3s on the straight in party mode. That’s largely down to the PU.

Graveworm

2,470 posts

17 months

Saturday 5th October
quotequote all
Durzel said:
What’s that got to do with his overall position on track though? Beating his teammate is an irrelevant stat beyond being noticed.

His stats speak for themselves, the highest place he achieved pre-Merc was 3rd, once. Joins Mercedes and is knocking out 2nds and even race wins, and is 2nd in the WDC standings.

No one is saying that he’s a crap driver, but the results clearly tell the story.
This is the Lewis Hamilton thread - Until he was partnered with him, he had never lost out to someone in the same machinery and he won the championship, last time he was in a spec car. Against Lewis he hasn't even got close and was 3rd and 5th when his teammate was WDC in the same car. All the previous evidence is he could get a lot out of a car and win, even when the obvious No. 2 driver. Which is why, when he has been soundly beaten by Hamilton, it's not logical to conclude that Lewis is not all that great, it's all the car and Bottas is just poor.

If he were a truly great driver how would his pre Merc stats have looked better? e.g 2016 he beat Alonso in a Mclaren and Hulkenberg, splitting the Force Indias, as well as Massa in the other Williams.

Durzel

7,837 posts

114 months

Saturday 5th October
quotequote all
I’m not sure what point you’re making there. It’s absolutely relevant to look at Bottas’s performance in the same car relative to his previous years when analysing Hamilton’s. That’s all we can do really, since it’s impossible to analyse all the drivers in equal machinery.

I don’t frankly care how Hamilton performs versus Bottas or vice versa, or against any of his previous teammates. It’s an irrelevant stat against the backdrop of other drivers in other teams. No one is disputing his skill and superiority.

It is clear to me that because Bottas is doing so well, now, relative to his pre-Merc days, that the car is a major factor in that. How can it not be? The only way it wold not be a factor - and a large one - would be if the belief is that Bottas became a title contender over Christmas 2016..

Therefore because Hamilton is driving the same car it is obviously the case that his already top tier talents are augmented considerably by it. It has been said before that he’s winning consistently because he is one of the best drivers in the best overall car.

I can’t see how anyone can claim the Merc hasn’t been the best car (perhaps not now) when you have Bottas’s record in it staring you in the face.

Edited by Durzel on Saturday 5th October 09:43

Graveworm

2,470 posts

17 months

Sunday 6th October
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Durzel said:
I’m not sure what point you’re making there. It’s absolutely relevant to look at Bottas’s performance in the same car relative to his previous years when analysing Hamilton’s. That’s all we can do really, since it’s impossible to analyse all the drivers in equal machinery.

I don’t frankly care how Hamilton performs versus Bottas or vice versa, or against any of his previous teammates. It’s an irrelevant stat against the backdrop of other drivers in other teams. No one is disputing his skill and superiority.

It is clear to me that because Bottas is doing so well, now, relative to his pre-Merc days, that the car is a major factor in that. How can it not be? The only way it wold not be a factor - and a large one - would be if the belief is that Bottas became a title contender over Christmas 2016..

Therefore because Hamilton is driving the same car it is obviously the case that his already top tier talents are augmented considerably by it. It has been said before that he’s winning consistently because he is one of the best drivers in the best overall car.

I can’t see how anyone can claim the Merc hasn’t been the best car (perhaps not now) when you have Bottas’s record in it staring you in the face.

Edited by Durzel on Saturday 5th October 09:43
In that car Bottas managed third and fifth. Not second and down by a huge margin. So great car, of course, but the driver is still the deciding factor, and all the previous evidence was that Bottas can get a lot out of a car. If you prefer if Hamilton was not in the Merc, Vettel would already have 6 WDCs and we would be arguing that the Ferrari was obviously the best car.

Edited by Graveworm on Sunday 6th October 05:01

Mr_Thyroid

1,756 posts

173 months

Sunday 6th October
quotequote all
Graveworm said:
In that car Bottas managed third and fifth. Not second and down by a huge margin. So great car, of course, but the driver is still the deciding factor, and all the previous evidence was that Bottas can get a lot out of a car. If you prefer if Hamilton was not in the Merc, Vettel would already have 6 WDCs and we would be arguing that the Ferrari was obviously the best car.

Edited by Graveworm on Sunday 6th October 05:01
It's a bit more complicated than that - if Bottas was the lead driver he would have had more favourable strategies. In 2017 he finished only 12 points behind Vettel. In 2018 he was only 4 points behind 3rd - less than what he lost through team orders in Russia.

He wouldn't have beaten Vettel in 2018, but maybe he could in 2017.

Being the top driver in a championship team brings pressure but I imagine it's also a huge boost to the self confidence - who knows how Valteri would react to this.

REALIST123

12,011 posts

99 months

Sunday 6th October
quotequote all
Graveworm said:
Durzel said:
I’m not sure what point you’re making there. It’s absolutely relevant to look at Bottas’s performance in the same car relative to his previous years when analysing Hamilton’s. That’s all we can do really, since it’s impossible to analyse all the drivers in equal machinery.

I don’t frankly care how Hamilton performs versus Bottas or vice versa, or against any of his previous teammates. It’s an irrelevant stat against the backdrop of other drivers in other teams. No one is disputing his skill and superiority.

It is clear to me that because Bottas is doing so well, now, relative to his pre-Merc days, that the car is a major factor in that. How can it not be? The only way it wold not be a factor - and a large one - would be if the belief is that Bottas became a title contender over Christmas 2016..

Therefore because Hamilton is driving the same car it is obviously the case that his already top tier talents are augmented considerably by it. It has been said before that he’s winning consistently because he is one of the best drivers in the best overall car.

I can’t see how anyone can claim the Merc hasn’t been the best car (perhaps not now) when you have Bottas’s record in it staring you in the face.

Edited by Durzel on Saturday 5th October 09:43
In that car Bottas managed third and fifth. Not second and down by a huge margin. So great car, of course, but the driver is still the deciding factor, and all the previous evidence was that Bottas can get a lot out of a car. If you prefer if Hamilton was not in the Merc, Vettel would already have 6 WDCs and we would be arguing that the Ferrari was obviously the best car.

Edited by Graveworm on Sunday 6th October 05:01
Very probably, that’s just how it is. It’s almost always the best car that gets a driver the Championship, though sometimes the gap to the others isn’t as big as it’s been over recent years.

If you look at the statistics, it’s hard to argue against that.

Exige77

3,864 posts

137 months

Sunday 6th October
quotequote all
You have to achieve stuff first before becoming lead driver and keep delivering as lead driver or there is always someone waiting in the wings.

Look at Seb, he was lead driver and got an understudy. Now the understudy is performing better.

The red team have always had a lead driver, now they have two lead drivers and soon they will have one lead driver again.

Teams want to win