Lewis Hamilton
Discussion
TheDeuce said:
Ricciardo to Mercedes post Lewis... I'd love to see that. That guy really needs a top car. I missed seeing him in the mix fighting for podiums last year.
I've always felt that we've been continually robbed of the chance to see just how good DR really could be. He drove very well in the Red Bull but so many performances were blunted by DNFs. In 2014, when he beat Vettel through a season, it seemed a foregone conclusion he would go on to win titles...
DR should have stayed at RB.I've always felt that we've been continually robbed of the chance to see just how good DR really could be. He drove very well in the Red Bull but so many performances were blunted by DNFs. In 2014, when he beat Vettel through a season, it seemed a foregone conclusion he would go on to win titles...
Going to Renault was just about the money and running away from Max.
He will need some wins for another team to be interested, which is unlikely.
Most teams now have young drivers that are more likely to fill any spare seats.
Alonso made the same mistake when he left Ferrari to join McLaren, but nobody wants him
after bad mouthing the car and engine.
Have Ferrari offered Hamilton 60 million, so is that why he is asking Mercedes for that amount in order to stay?
dreamcracker said:
DR should have stayed at RB.
Going to Renault was just about the money and running away from Max.
He will need some wins for another team to be interested, which is unlikely.
Most teams now have young drivers that are more likely to fill any spare seats.
Alonso made the same mistake when he left Ferrari to join McLaren, but nobody wants him
after bad mouthing the car and engine.
Have Ferrari offered Hamilton 60 million, so is that why he is asking Mercedes for that amount in order to stay?
I think some of that is a little uncharitable towards DR. He matched max in terms of talent , albeit with a different driving style. In the end Max's massive popularity (important for sponsors and the RB brand) combined with his relative youth meant RB had to make him No1 in order to retain him. Once that was done, it was totally unrealistic that DR could have a chance at a title with RB. He went to Renault no doubt very aware they were unlikely deliver what he want, but at least there was a potential chance... Better than no chance.Going to Renault was just about the money and running away from Max.
He will need some wins for another team to be interested, which is unlikely.
Most teams now have young drivers that are more likely to fill any spare seats.
Alonso made the same mistake when he left Ferrari to join McLaren, but nobody wants him
after bad mouthing the car and engine.
Have Ferrari offered Hamilton 60 million, so is that why he is asking Mercedes for that amount in order to stay?
I'm sure he does also remain of interest to the top teams - although granted, that won't last forever.
I doubt Ferrari offered Lewis £60m pa, to be honest I doubt anyone had such a sum in mind until he asked for it..
I can see why Ricciardo would be a very solid call for Mercedes but I think they are lining it up for George Russell. He is still fairly unproven in competitive F1 terms but his first year was impressive in the Alonso 2001 mould.
Mercedes see the data and clearly rate him highly, plus he is on a 3 year Williams deal which is unusual for a first F1 contract and shows he is a long term prospect for Merc.
He is at the right end of his career to be able to go head to head with Max, Charles, Lando etc for the next decade or so.
Mercedes see the data and clearly rate him highly, plus he is on a 3 year Williams deal which is unusual for a first F1 contract and shows he is a long term prospect for Merc.
He is at the right end of his career to be able to go head to head with Max, Charles, Lando etc for the next decade or so.
I don’t see the fascination with Ricciardo.
A few good performances, last of the late brakers but often over cooking it.
I think he’s had his chance.
If he was serious about winning stuff, he should have stayed at RB.
Verstappen might be the golden boy but above all else they want to win. A few good performances at RB would have put him back in the picture.
A few good performances, last of the late brakers but often over cooking it.
I think he’s had his chance.
If he was serious about winning stuff, he should have stayed at RB.
Verstappen might be the golden boy but above all else they want to win. A few good performances at RB would have put him back in the picture.
Exige77 said:
I don’t see the fascination with Ricciardo.
A few good performances, last of the late brakers but often over cooking it.
I think he’s had his chance.
If he was serious about winning stuff, he should have stayed at RB.
Verstappen might be the golden boy but above all else they want to win. A few good performances at RB would have put him back in the picture.
With hindsight I do actually agree, staying at RB would have been far better. But that's hindsight... At the time he didn't know how the Honda PU would work out, and he'd just had iirc 9 mechanical dnfs in a single season. Also Christ knows what Renault showed/promised him prior to 2019. It's undeniable it hasn't worked out in the best way for his career but that doesn't mean at the time the decision was made that it wasn't justifiable imo.A few good performances, last of the late brakers but often over cooking it.
I think he’s had his chance.
If he was serious about winning stuff, he should have stayed at RB.
Verstappen might be the golden boy but above all else they want to win. A few good performances at RB would have put him back in the picture.
Exige77 said:
I don’t see the fascination with Ricciardo.
A few good performances, last of the late brakers but often over cooking it.
I think he’s had his chance.
If he was serious about winning stuff, he should have stayed at RB.
Verstappen might be the golden boy but above all else they want to win. A few good performances at RB would have put him back in the picture.
I think Ricciardo went to Renault because he was comfortably leading Max but RB was becoming all about Max. It was only after he announced that he was off to Renault and had to be marginalised that Max was able to overhaul him. A few good performances, last of the late brakers but often over cooking it.
I think he’s had his chance.
If he was serious about winning stuff, he should have stayed at RB.
Verstappen might be the golden boy but above all else they want to win. A few good performances at RB would have put him back in the picture.
I don't think he left Red Bull because of Max, though I assume he felt Max was a huge threat for him. I think he left because Red Bull made the working environment unpleasant for him with their open support and admiration for Max. They did the same to Webber. I don't think they do it on purpose, well maybe Helmet does, but Christian always waxes lyrical about the faster driver and goes into motivational corpspeak when discussing the other driver (even when they've just beaten the talent...)
If that's what it's like inside the garage too, it's not going to be a happy place to work, and if the driver doesn't feel like the team is behind him, he's going to think he has no chance to beat the favoured team mate. I think the internal momentum and politics at Red Bull had gotten away from him, he recognised that, and decided he needed to move elsewhere to stay relevant.
If he had stayed at RB and indeed started getting beaten by Max (Max doesn't seem to have managed to add consistency to his speed, but back in mid 2018 it wasn't an unreasonable expectation that he would), I think his reputation would have taken a bigger hit than it is struggling around the midfield in a Renault. However, if that thought had also given him some motivation to move, then he would indeed be running from a fight.
If that's what it's like inside the garage too, it's not going to be a happy place to work, and if the driver doesn't feel like the team is behind him, he's going to think he has no chance to beat the favoured team mate. I think the internal momentum and politics at Red Bull had gotten away from him, he recognised that, and decided he needed to move elsewhere to stay relevant.
If he had stayed at RB and indeed started getting beaten by Max (Max doesn't seem to have managed to add consistency to his speed, but back in mid 2018 it wasn't an unreasonable expectation that he would), I think his reputation would have taken a bigger hit than it is struggling around the midfield in a Renault. However, if that thought had also given him some motivation to move, then he would indeed be running from a fight.
Weren't Red Bull paying Ricciardo about a quarter (or less) of what they were paying Max?
People have suggested that Ricciardo's move was financially motivated- but it goes much deeper than that. How is Ricciardo supposed to feel valued as an equal by the team? It is certainly not the case that his performance relative to max justified Red Bull giving him a fraction of the salary.
Red Bull had decided Max was their future. Ricciardo was demoted to being just a useful second driver for no reason other than simply not being Max. They felt he had no possibility for a competitive drive elsewhere so they took him for granted and undervalued him financially. They were complacent. When he called their bluff and announced he was going to Renault, they offered him all sorts to retain him- I seem to remember Horner came out in the media and basically said they had offered to match what Renault were offering. However it was too little, too late- because in the end it wasn't just about the headline figure. Red Bull had signaled the direction of travel. Once again, Red Bull's perfunctory attitude towards drivers had driven a good talent away.
People have suggested that Ricciardo's move was financially motivated- but it goes much deeper than that. How is Ricciardo supposed to feel valued as an equal by the team? It is certainly not the case that his performance relative to max justified Red Bull giving him a fraction of the salary.
Red Bull had decided Max was their future. Ricciardo was demoted to being just a useful second driver for no reason other than simply not being Max. They felt he had no possibility for a competitive drive elsewhere so they took him for granted and undervalued him financially. They were complacent. When he called their bluff and announced he was going to Renault, they offered him all sorts to retain him- I seem to remember Horner came out in the media and basically said they had offered to match what Renault were offering. However it was too little, too late- because in the end it wasn't just about the headline figure. Red Bull had signaled the direction of travel. Once again, Red Bull's perfunctory attitude towards drivers had driven a good talent away.
kiseca said:
I don't think he left Red Bull because of Max, though I assume he felt Max was a huge threat for him. I think he left because Red Bull made the working environment unpleasant for him with their open support and admiration for Max. They did the same to Webber. I don't think they do it on purpose, well maybe Helmet does, but Christian always waxes lyrical about the faster driver and goes into motivational corpspeak when discussing the other driver (even when they've just beaten the talent...)
If that's what it's like inside the garage too, it's not going to be a happy place to work, and if the driver doesn't feel like the team is behind him, he's going to think he has no chance to beat the favoured team mate. I think the internal momentum and politics at Red Bull had gotten away from him, he recognised that, and decided he needed to move elsewhere to stay relevant.
If he had stayed at RB and indeed started getting beaten by Max (Max doesn't seem to have managed to add consistency to his speed, but back in mid 2018 it wasn't an unreasonable expectation that he would), I think his reputation would have taken a bigger hit than it is struggling around the midfield in a Renault. However, if that thought had also given him some motivation to move, then he would indeed be running from a fight.
Virtually all of what you say, DR has himself said so no need to question any of it. Those are the reasons why he wanted to leave, but that's only half the argument. There were reasons he would have wanted to stay too! Which is is why I can't help but wonder how different what Renault presented as their 2019 ambitions and expectations were compared to what was actually achieved. He would surely have needed a reason to want to go to Renault in addition to wanting to leave RB. Maybe they really thought the Renault PU for 2019 was going to be significantly better than whatever Honda were about to provide - if that had turned out to be the case, it could have been just about believable Renault could match RB in 2019... If that's what it's like inside the garage too, it's not going to be a happy place to work, and if the driver doesn't feel like the team is behind him, he's going to think he has no chance to beat the favoured team mate. I think the internal momentum and politics at Red Bull had gotten away from him, he recognised that, and decided he needed to move elsewhere to stay relevant.
If he had stayed at RB and indeed started getting beaten by Max (Max doesn't seem to have managed to add consistency to his speed, but back in mid 2018 it wasn't an unreasonable expectation that he would), I think his reputation would have taken a bigger hit than it is struggling around the midfield in a Renault. However, if that thought had also given him some motivation to move, then he would indeed be running from a fight.
The PU is just one wildly speculative theory. There has to had been a carrot though, and I doubt that the money was as important as feeling he was doing the best thing for his F1 career.
HustleRussell said:
Weren't Red Bull paying Ricciardo about a quarter (or less) of what they were paying Max?
People have suggested that Ricciardo's move was financially motivated- but it goes much deeper than that. How is Ricciardo supposed to feel valued as an equal by the team? It is certainly not the case that his performance relative to max justified Red Bull giving him a fraction of the salary.
Red Bull had decided Max was their future. Ricciardo was demoted to being just a useful second driver for no reason other than simply not being Max. They felt he had no possibility for a competitive drive elsewhere so they took him for granted and undervalued him financially. They were complacent. When he called their bluff and announced he was going to Renault, they offered him all sorts to retain him- I seem to remember Horner came out in the media and basically said they had offered to match what Renault were offering. However it was too little, too late- because in the end it wasn't just about the headline figure. Red Bull had signaled the direction of travel. Once again, Red Bull's perfunctory attitude towards drivers had driven a good talent away.
It was less than Max through 2018, and Horner did indeed eventually concede that they had offered DR everything he wanted - which I would certainly assume included matching whatever Renault were offering. No doubt some damage was already done by that point though.People have suggested that Ricciardo's move was financially motivated- but it goes much deeper than that. How is Ricciardo supposed to feel valued as an equal by the team? It is certainly not the case that his performance relative to max justified Red Bull giving him a fraction of the salary.
Red Bull had decided Max was their future. Ricciardo was demoted to being just a useful second driver for no reason other than simply not being Max. They felt he had no possibility for a competitive drive elsewhere so they took him for granted and undervalued him financially. They were complacent. When he called their bluff and announced he was going to Renault, they offered him all sorts to retain him- I seem to remember Horner came out in the media and basically said they had offered to match what Renault were offering. However it was too little, too late- because in the end it wasn't just about the headline figure. Red Bull had signaled the direction of travel. Once again, Red Bull's perfunctory attitude towards drivers had driven a good talent away.
I agree. They gave up what could have been the strongest driver pairing in F1, though I reckon it was always going to end in tears anyway because Max seems to be a complete dick.
EDIT: TheDeuce, you're right about the PU too. There were no indications... at least outside F1... in 2018 that the Honda was capable of powering a race winner in 2019. It was a big disruptive change for the team and nothing really to indicate whether it would be a success or not.
EDIT: TheDeuce, you're right about the PU too. There were no indications... at least outside F1... in 2018 that the Honda was capable of powering a race winner in 2019. It was a big disruptive change for the team and nothing really to indicate whether it would be a success or not.
Edited by kiseca on Tuesday 28th January 12:56
TheDeuce said:
He would surely have needed a reason to want to go to Renault in addition to wanting to leave RB.
There has to had been a carrot though, and I doubt that the money was as important as feeling he was doing the best thing for his F1 career.
I don't think there does. Ricciardo was bloody minded enough to want to get out of Red Bull even though there was no faster seat available. He took a big lift in pay to become the leader of a works team with front running aspirations in the medium term. Renault was a life boat from Red Bull where he could await further developments whilst hopefully getting enough exposure to remain relevant to the 'front running drivers' discussion. There has to had been a carrot though, and I doubt that the money was as important as feeling he was doing the best thing for his F1 career.
jsf said:
sparta6 said:
Mercedes are launching 32 new cars in the next 2 years, regardless of who is in it's F1 seats. This has been in prep for a few years.
Bottas has shown he can win the WDC in a Merc if Lewis stops or switches team.
Against Lewis in a red bull or Ferrari or maybe even a working McLaren, i wouldn't bet on that.Bottas has shown he can win the WDC in a Merc if Lewis stops or switches team.
Probably the 3rd best car on the grid.
Bottas in the Merc would be off into the sunset
Bo_apex said:
jsf said:
sparta6 said:
Mercedes are launching 32 new cars in the next 2 years, regardless of who is in it's F1 seats. This has been in prep for a few years.
Bottas has shown he can win the WDC in a Merc if Lewis stops or switches team.
Against Lewis in a red bull or Ferrari or maybe even a working McLaren, i wouldn't bet on that.Bottas has shown he can win the WDC in a Merc if Lewis stops or switches team.
Probably the 3rd best car on the grid.
Bottas in the Merc would be off into the sunset
Bo_apex said:
jsf said:
sparta6 said:
Mercedes are launching 32 new cars in the next 2 years, regardless of who is in it's F1 seats. This has been in prep for a few years.
Bottas has shown he can win the WDC in a Merc if Lewis stops or switches team.
Against Lewis in a red bull or Ferrari or maybe even a working McLaren, i wouldn't bet on that.Bottas has shown he can win the WDC in a Merc if Lewis stops or switches team.
Probably the 3rd best car on the grid.
Bottas in the Merc would be off into the sunset
t 
kiseca said:
Bo_apex said:
jsf said:
sparta6 said:
Mercedes are launching 32 new cars in the next 2 years, regardless of who is in it's F1 seats. This has been in prep for a few years.
Bottas has shown he can win the WDC in a Merc if Lewis stops or switches team.
Against Lewis in a red bull or Ferrari or maybe even a working McLaren, i wouldn't bet on that.Bottas has shown he can win the WDC in a Merc if Lewis stops or switches team.
Probably the 3rd best car on the grid.
Bottas in the Merc would be off into the sunset
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