Noisier & cheaper engines from 2021
Discussion
The tricky thing with these new engines is that no-one really knows what they should be...
Noise - Noisier? How much noisier? What kind of noise? I don't think going back to the old ways would be much better, needing earplugs to be anywhere near the track wasn't much fun after the first 10 minutes imo, I'd much rather have a better noise than more of it. That may mean more revs, or less restriction in the exhausts.
Efficiency? Again, how much do we really want? The new engines are bloody amazing pieces of kit, but there's no doubt that the rest of the spectacle suffers for their buttoned-down efficiency and complexity.
Road car relevance - Personally I couldn't give a fig about making F1 relevant to road-going tech, but if it draws big manufacturers into the sport then it may be worth putting up with.
Someone needs to sit down and work out exactly where they want to go with it, then they can draw up the new format for the engines. I'd say the best route would be the same tactic as LMP1 - give them a set fuel amount and flow rate, and a fixed limit on the amount of recoverable/deployable battery energy (if any), and then let them decide on the best way to get it.
Noise - Noisier? How much noisier? What kind of noise? I don't think going back to the old ways would be much better, needing earplugs to be anywhere near the track wasn't much fun after the first 10 minutes imo, I'd much rather have a better noise than more of it. That may mean more revs, or less restriction in the exhausts.
Efficiency? Again, how much do we really want? The new engines are bloody amazing pieces of kit, but there's no doubt that the rest of the spectacle suffers for their buttoned-down efficiency and complexity.
Road car relevance - Personally I couldn't give a fig about making F1 relevant to road-going tech, but if it draws big manufacturers into the sport then it may be worth putting up with.
Someone needs to sit down and work out exactly where they want to go with it, then they can draw up the new format for the engines. I'd say the best route would be the same tactic as LMP1 - give them a set fuel amount and flow rate, and a fixed limit on the amount of recoverable/deployable battery energy (if any), and then let them decide on the best way to get it.
I don't want them to abandon any of the clever technologies, I'd prefer to see MGU-H retained possibly using standardised components. Could do the same for the deployment side, leaving the ICE, turbo and associated ancillaries to the manufacturers.
I don't see the need to take a backwards step in order to make the cars louder. The consumer has a breadth of choice of loud race series to go and listen to.
I don't see the need to take a backwards step in order to make the cars louder. The consumer has a breadth of choice of loud race series to go and listen to.
CoolHands said:
To make it more exciting. That's the whole point of everything really, isn't it. If they become more equal the driver skills and overtaking make a difference. If one car is so much better than the rest, they don't.
So just have a stock formula. Big companies won't invest millions in 2 tenths advantage of only to have it nullified next race.CoolHands said:
Vaud said:
Why does racing have to be equalised?
To make it more exciting. That's the whole point of everything really, isn't it. If they become more equal the driver skills and overtaking make a difference. If one car is so much better than the rest, they don't.rdjohn said:
I think that in reality, it could be fairly simple. It's just that the big teams don't want it.
If teams size were limited to about 100 design and 50 race personnel, then an audit trail would have to exist for everything that goes on the car. A couple of sceptical forensic accountants and engineers for each team could ask all the right questions and be rotated annually to resist indoctrination and ensure consistency.
Any team found guilty of cheating gets penalised and pillared.
So, team A employs a caterer to provide food for staff and guests. Occasionally they turn up with a new wing, spoiler etc. The aufit will show that the aero department came up with the new part.If teams size were limited to about 100 design and 50 race personnel, then an audit trail would have to exist for everything that goes on the car. A couple of sceptical forensic accountants and engineers for each team could ask all the right questions and be rotated annually to resist indoctrination and ensure consistency.
Any team found guilty of cheating gets penalised and pillared.
Factory team B implements some tech that comes from the R&D dept of the parent company. How are you going to stop them using knowledge or IP from the parent company that has spent millions on it ?
Its unenforceable. If you tried to implement one it'd just get abused and workarounds put in place. Remember the FIA would be responsible for enforcement and they don't have a good reputation do they ?
The RRA ended up exactly the same, abused and undermined.
coppice said:
Yes- saw my first top fuller in '73 and have been addicted ever since- got my last fix at Santa Pod in September ! A lot of DFV engined cars sounded impressive enough, but not soul stirring . Personal highlights from trackside have included Matra MS 120,any Ferrari or Alfa V or flat 12 etc but the one best sounding engine for me was the Toyota V10 from about 2005 - amazing range of noises .
One of my best times at the track was at Le Mans 2005 with Audi and ADTHere we are setting up for a photoshoot with the Audi cars and the ADT CCTV van, I ran the CCTV vans for ADT.
Crafty_ said:
So, team A employs a caterer to provide food for staff and guests. Occasionally they turn up with a new wing, spoiler etc. The aufit will show that the aero department came up with the new part.
Factory team B implements some tech that comes from the R&D dept of the parent company. How are you going to stop them using knowledge or IP from the parent company that has spent millions on it ?
Its unenforceable. If you tried to implement one it'd just get abused and workarounds put in place. Remember the FIA would be responsible for enforcement and they don't have a good reputation do they ?
The RRA ended up exactly the same, abused and undermined.
it failed largely because it was voluntary.Factory team B implements some tech that comes from the R&D dept of the parent company. How are you going to stop them using knowledge or IP from the parent company that has spent millions on it ?
Its unenforceable. If you tried to implement one it'd just get abused and workarounds put in place. Remember the FIA would be responsible for enforcement and they don't have a good reputation do they ?
The RRA ended up exactly the same, abused and undermined.
If any part does not have a bar code and a certifiable audit trail it cannot be used. The whole point of a cost cap would be that big teams no longer bring a revised fromt wing to every race.
The caterer would be a subcontractor, as would most carbon fibre bits. 3D printing is used for the small fiddly bits, but they have files.
The risk of being found cheating is also a huge deterrent.
Fortunately Liberty seem to be convinced of the merits.
rdjohn said:
it failed largely because it was voluntary.
If any part does not have a bar code and a certifiable audit trail it cannot be used. The whole point of a cost cap would be that big teams no longer bring a revised fromt wing to every race.
The caterer would be a subcontractor, as would most carbon fibre bits. 3D printing is used for the small fiddly bits, but they have files.
The risk of being found cheating is also a huge deterrent.
Fortunately Liberty seem to be convinced of the merits.
So the external company does all the research, testing etc of a part. The team make a few drawings of the finished article and produce a part with a barcode on. Job done. If any part does not have a bar code and a certifiable audit trail it cannot be used. The whole point of a cost cap would be that big teams no longer bring a revised fromt wing to every race.
The caterer would be a subcontractor, as would most carbon fibre bits. 3D printing is used for the small fiddly bits, but they have files.
The risk of being found cheating is also a huge deterrent.
Fortunately Liberty seem to be convinced of the merits.
Its impossible to enforce a cost cap and track every single activity the team / engine manufacturer do, short of having a team of auditors/inspectors sat in the factory 24x7.
There has always been disparity in team spending power, just like a football team in division 4 can't afford a player from the premier league (for example). What we need is a set of regulations that allow money to be spent effectively so a team with a small budget can do 95% of the job a big budget can, then on one special day with a bit of luck the small team gets a win...
ash73 said:
While they're modding the engines I wish they'd shorten the cars a bit, look at the amount of space around the sidepods (due to the incredible packaging), and the front wings are ridiculous.
Agreed. I'd like to see reduced front overhang and single element wings (none of these ridiculous strakes and vanes) no wider than the inner edge of the front wheels. Also rounded ends to the wings like the original Porsche Turbo. Hopefully this would reduce the amount of damage in first lap traffic.Dr. Marko is making some noise about this.
F1 risks losing Red Bull over post-2020 engines - Marko
It's the usual posturing.
F1 risks losing Red Bull over post-2020 engines - Marko
It's the usual posturing.
Dr Z said:
Dr. Marko is making some noise about this.
F1 risks losing Red Bull over post-2020 engines - Marko
It's the usual posturing.
With the grid down to 10 teams, and that's giving second teams credit, and those lower down the grid suffering (and FI's boss not having the most reassuring of times) Marko thinks he'll threaten someone.F1 risks losing Red Bull over post-2020 engines - Marko
It's the usual posturing.
I got the impression that one of the advantages of having a 'cheap' engine, noisy or not, was to get other manufacturers interested. VW has made noises, BMW might not be far behind, so there are going to be a lot of sources.
If, and I think it is a big if, if RB do pull their cars then there might well be a lot of pretenders wanting a place on the grid, especially if engines are cheapish. Further, I bet some other regs are agreed which will reduce costs.
Perhaps someone should tell Marko not to close the door after him as there'll be a queue outside by 2020.
He really irritates me. I almost feel sorry for Horner. Almost.
The purists will hate me for this, but I'd like to see an equivalency formula, with the non-factory teams allowed to use modified production car engines. The Chevrolet "small block" is over 7 litres now in some guises and could no doubt be stretched a bit more. That would give some interesting noise.
And the cars are stupidly large; did you know that the wheelbase of a current F1 car is over four feet longer than the Lotus 38 Indy car? (and the Lotus 49 F1 car was smaller than that!)
And the cars are stupidly large; did you know that the wheelbase of a current F1 car is over four feet longer than the Lotus 38 Indy car? (and the Lotus 49 F1 car was smaller than that!)
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