F1 Past

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poo at Paul's

7,045 posts

116 months

Wednesday 21st March 2018
quotequote all
ELUSIVEJIM said:
The full race itself was not that exciting but the end sure was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtZ0wv1I8yc
That is cracking footage.

ELUSIVEJIM

Original Poster:

5,589 posts

92 months

Wednesday 21st March 2018
quotequote all
poo at Paul's said:
That is cracking footage.
beer

paua

1,108 posts

84 months

Wednesday 21st March 2018
quotequote all
ELUSIVEJIM said:
poo at Paul's said:
That is cracking footage.
beer
About as good as it gets, in more recent times, sadly, it is more normal to have : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx9zIQvrdZU

Vocal Minority

8,582 posts

93 months

Thursday 22nd March 2018
quotequote all
paua said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
poo at Paul's said:
That is cracking footage.
beer
About as good as it gets, in more recent times, sadly, it is more normal to have : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx9zIQvrdZU
That wasn’t normal back then - it’s why everyone remembers it (despite it being presented by some as typical of the era to prove their point about f1 being better in the past (ie when they were young)

I remember being heart broken at 12 by the seal that failed on Hill’s Arrows at Hungary - a win would have sealed his reputation from people who under-rays him (in part, IMHO, because it’s fashionable).

That said - the aforementioned ‘when I was young’ effect may be at work too smile

paua

1,108 posts

84 months

Thursday 22nd March 2018
quotequote all
Vocal Minority said:
paua said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
poo at Paul's said:
That is cracking footage.
beer
About as good as it gets, in more recent times, sadly, it is more normal to have : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx9zIQvrdZU
That wasn’t normal back then - it’s why everyone remembers it (despite it being presented by some as typical of the era to prove their point about f1 being better in the past (ie when they were young)

I remember being heart broken at 12 by the seal that failed on Hill’s Arrows at Hungary - a win would have sealed his reputation from people who under-rays him (in part, IMHO, because it’s fashionable).

That said - the aforementioned ‘when I was young’ effect may be at work too smile
Seems to me there was an increase in poor sportsmanship/ behaviour/ win at all costs from the mid '80's on. In part, i think, increasing safety margins have contributed to this. There have been dozens of examples over the last 30 some years.
As a contrast : www.youtube.com/watch?v=yveFVn1DXPo featuring one of the leading contenders for the bad boy award actually behaving with honour. His career wasn't always thus.

Just to add: I was on a road trip with a friend from Cologne to Munich & Stuttgart to visit 3 important museums (these 3 not possible in NZ!). We stopped for fuel on the autobahn & as luck would have it, witnessed this live on the TV. Good start to the journey.

Edited by paua on Thursday 22 March 06:22

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Eric Mc

106,130 posts

206 months

Thursday 22nd March 2018
quotequote all
Vocal Minority said:
That wasn’t normal back then - it’s why everyone remembers it (despite it being presented by some as typical of the era to prove their point about f1 being better in the past (ie when they were young)

I remember being heart broken at 12 by the seal that failed on Hill’s Arrows at Hungary - a win would have sealed his reputation from people who under-rays him (in part, IMHO, because it’s fashionable).

That said - the aforementioned ‘when I was young’ effect may be at work too smile
I wasn't that young (39) by that time but that certainly was an exciting - and frustrating - race. I'd also put in Hill's win at Spa in the Jordan as being a great memory. Indeed, the whole race was a bit of an event. Will be 20 years ago this year.

Regarding sportsmanship (or rather the decline in it), I would cite Ayrton Senna as a major influence in this area - followed by Michael Schumacher. Both these guys certainly increased the drama aspect, especially Senna, but at the expense of the "sporting" aspect of the sport.

One other factor that would prevent an Arnoux/Villeneuve type "ding -dongs" today is the fact that contact of that nature would almost definitely break too many aerodynamic protuberances - rendering the car uncompetitive if not putting it out of the race.

Gad-Westy

9,286 posts

154 months

Thursday 22nd March 2018
quotequote all
paua said:
About as good as it gets, in more recent times, sadly, it is more normal to have : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx9zIQvrdZU
Would have to disagree as well about this being anything like normal. I actually think we've had some cracking wheel to wheel action on occasions in the last few years. I remember some great battles between Hamilton and Button in McLarens and more recently MV and DR in the Red Bulls. Not to mention some Rosberg and Hamilton's spicier encounters. I perhaps don't remember any lap long battle like the Arnoux one but I think the fact that exact video gets rolled out so often is for the fact that wasn't typical action either.

I'm another who has Button's 2011 Canada victory firmly filed away as one of the great moments. Dead last at more than half distance, absolute horror story of a race and then comes through to take the lead on the last lap. Fariy tale stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Iaz1-8VC0

More recently, MV has served up plenty of excitement.

Brazil 2016
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHpdS2p9mBk

First lap of lat year's Chinese GP was quite something too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBRhuhU5WHM





paua

1,108 posts

84 months

Thursday 22nd March 2018
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
Vocal Minority said:
That wasn’t normal back then - it’s why everyone remembers it (despite it being presented by some as typical of the era to prove their point about f1 being better in the past (ie when they were young)

I remember being heart broken at 12 by the seal that failed on Hill’s Arrows at Hungary - a win would have sealed his reputation from people who under-rays him (in part, IMHO, because it’s fashionable).

That said - the aforementioned ‘when I was young’ effect may be at work too smile
I wasn't that young (39) by that time but that certainly was an exciting - and frustrating - race. I'd also put in Hill's win at Spa in the Jordan as being a great memory. Indeed, the whole race was a bit of an event. Will be 20 years ago this year.

Regarding sportsmanship (or rather the decline in it), I would cite Ayrton Senna as a major influence in this area - followed by Michael Schumacher. Both these guys certainly increased the drama aspect, especially Senna, but at the expense of the "sporting" aspect of the sport.

One other factor that would prevent an Arnoux/Villeneuve type "ding -dongs" today is the fact that contact of that nature would almost definitely break too many aerodynamic protuberances - rendering the car uncompetitive if not putting it out of the race.
Was, largely, Senna I was alluding to - mid '80's. Followed by Schu, Vet, Ham, Ros, MV et al.

ELUSIVEJIM

Original Poster:

5,589 posts

92 months

Thursday 22nd March 2018
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
I wasn't that young (39) by that time but that certainly was an exciting - and frustrating - race. I'd also put in Hill's win at Spa in the Jordan as being a great memory. Indeed, the whole race was a bit of an event. Will be 20 years ago this year.

Regarding sportsmanship (or rather the decline in it), I would cite Ayrton Senna as a major influence in this area - followed by Michael Schumacher. Both these guys certainly increased the drama aspect, especially Senna, but at the expense of the "sporting" aspect of the sport.

One other factor that would prevent an Arnoux/Villeneuve type "ding -dongs" today is the fact that contact of that nature would almost definitely break too many aerodynamic protuberances - rendering the car uncompetitive if not putting it out of the race.
That was the complex nature of Senna.

In one moment he would take someone out due to behind the scene's politics "Prost" but then stop to help "and in Erik Comas words" saved the life of Erik after a nasty shunt at Spa.

It was clear at the Imola 94 weekend he was deeply troubled by the accident of Barrichello and then the death of Ratzenberger.

It was mentioned Senna had an Austrian flag with him in the Williams when he died during the race.

Very complex individual.

ELUSIVEJIM

Original Poster:

5,589 posts

92 months

Thursday 22nd March 2018
quotequote all
I remember this race being loopy due to the horrendous weather conditions.

Thought the battle between Kubica and Massa was as good as I have seen in a long time.

Amazed this is not shown more as the skill level and desire to win the battle is fantastic.

Perhaps the reason is it was for minor points.

It would be red flagged now which is another huge issue with F1.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnxUu36-uYw

Eric Mc

106,130 posts

206 months

Thursday 22nd March 2018
quotequote all
ELUSIVEJIM said:
That was the complex nature of Senna.

In one moment he would take someone out due to behind the scene's politics "Prost" but then stop to help "and in Erik Comas words" saved the life of Erik after a nasty shunt at Spa.

It was clear at the Imola 94 weekend he was deeply troubled by the accident of Barrichello and then the death of Ratzenberger.

It was mentioned Senna had an Austrian flag with him in the Williams when he died during the race.

Very complex individual.
I actually don't think he was that complex. When it came to racing - especially dealing with drivers he thought were a threat - he was ruthless. That was consistent whether it was dealing with them on track or dealing with them behind the scenes. Part of the reason he was so antagonistic towards Prost was because he was both a threat on track and was probably even better at the behind the scenes manipulation stuff.

Off track or in circumstances where he wasn't under threat of being beaten - he was extremely caring and magnanimous.


ELUSIVEJIM

Original Poster:

5,589 posts

92 months

Thursday 22nd March 2018
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
I actually don't think he was that complex. When it came to racing - especially dealing with drivers he thought were a threat - he was ruthless. That was consistent whether it was dealing with them on track or dealing with them behind the scenes. Part of the reason he was so antagonistic towards Prost was because he was both a threat on track and was probably even better at the behind the scenes manipulation stuff.

Off track or in circumstances where he wasn't under threat of being beaten - he was extremely caring and magnanimous.
Yes agree totally. smile

ELUSIVEJIM

Original Poster:

5,589 posts

92 months

Thursday 22nd March 2018
quotequote all
Amazing save by Mansell.

Terrible driving by Berger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTJI6s8MMOE

yoshisdad

296 posts

112 months

Thursday 22nd March 2018
quotequote all
First F1 race I watched from start to finish was Monaco 1988. Senna way out in the lead, Prost finally gets past Berger and starts putting in fast laps. Senna distracted by this, puts it in to the barrier. These psychological games made me a big fan of Prost, and even bigger fan of McLaren and engendered a life long love of F1.

The two greatest drivers of their generation in the best car of its generation makes 1988 very special.

Eric Mc

106,130 posts

206 months

Thursday 22nd March 2018
quotequote all
That level of intensity does seem to be absent now. Maybe that's not all bad. Senna raised the "tenseness" to a level never seen before or since.

ELUSIVEJIM

Original Poster:

5,589 posts

92 months

Thursday 22nd March 2018
quotequote all
yoshisdad said:
First F1 race I watched from start to finish was Monaco 1988. Senna way out in the lead, Prost finally gets past Berger and starts putting in fast laps. Senna distracted by this, puts it in to the barrier. These psychological games made me a big fan of Prost, and even bigger fan of McLaren and engendered a life long love of F1.

The two greatest drivers of their generation in the best car of its generation makes 1988 very special.
This is the biggest disappointment with F1.

You will never get the two best drivers in F1 in the same team.

In the modern era this is why we see Kimi being retained at Ferrari and Bottas at Mercedes but it has been going on for years.

Clearly Mercedes had enough of the Rosberg/Hamilton battles so are happy to have someone who can score points towards the teams Championship but not upset the apple cart.



ELUSIVEJIM

Original Poster:

5,589 posts

92 months

Thursday 22nd March 2018
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
That level of intensity does seem to be absent now. Maybe that's not all bad. Senna raised the "tenseness" to a level never seen before or since.
Senna was no angel that is for sure but Prost was being helped massively by Jean-Marie Balestre.

Very toxic situation but fantastic for the sport.

I personally feel if this was to return, F1's fan base would increase ten fold.

Eric Mc

106,130 posts

206 months

Thursday 22nd March 2018
quotequote all
It certainly played a part in ramping up the profile of F1 in the years from 1988 through to 1994. After the demise of Senna, Schumacher kind of stepped into his shoes and the rivalry between him and Hill was bigged up - especially in the UK. It was never quite at the same level as the Prost/Senna rivalry but at times it did get pretty serious and did its bit to keep media interest high.

We should also look at the "rivalries" of earlier eras, which were often much less keen and far less overly serious. For instance,we sometimes get the narrative that there was serious rivalry between Lauda and Hunt, for instance, but everything was on a much friendlier level back in those days.

ELUSIVEJIM

Original Poster:

5,589 posts

92 months

Thursday 22nd March 2018
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DuckAvenger

248 posts

74 months

Thursday 22nd March 2018
quotequote all