McLaren

[Deesee]

McLaren, took a huge leap towards last yr in identifying the 2018 chassis problems and putting it right in 2019, Sadly I don’t think we’ll see the kind of gains again this year.

With news that the 2021 car is in the Toyota wind tunnel, I’m sure a large % of effort is geared towards MC Merc 2021.

[TheDeuce]

Deesee said:

McLaren, took a huge leap towards last yr in identifying the 2018 chassis problems and putting it right in 2019, Sadly I don’t think we’ll see the kind of gains again this year.

With news that the 2021 car is in the Toyota wind tunnel, I’m sure a large % of effort is geared towards MC Merc 2021.

The big question for me is, what will Renault's response be to McLaren this year? Ending 4th last year was a big result for McLaren and they have to really stay on it this year to maintain that position - Renault really don't want them to of course.

Must have been very difficult for both teams to judge how much they need to invest in this year's car to keep the other at bay, Vs how much they invest in the 2021 effort.

[Deesee]

TheDeuce said:

Deesee said:

McLaren, took a huge leap towards last yr in identifying the 2018 chassis problems and putting it right in 2019, Sadly I don’t think we’ll see the kind of gains again this year.

With news that the 2021 car is in the Toyota wind tunnel, I’m sure a large % of effort is geared towards MC Merc 2021.

The big question for me is, what will Renault's response be to McLaren this year? Ending 4th last year was a big result for McLaren and they have to really stay on it this year to maintain that position - Renault really don't want them to of course.

Must have been very difficult for both teams to judge how much they need to invest in this year's car to keep the other at bay, Vs how much they invest in the 2021 effort.

I expect Renault to have a few surprise (decent) results, if they can time the engines (aka Red Bull) tactically.

They were particularly strong on high speed tracks, heavy breaking zones & weak on high speed corners, they need to have addressed that this year with improvements to the floor and bargeboards.

Renault have no issues with Mclaren success.

[slipstream 1985]

Deesee said:

TheDeuce said:

Deesee said:

McLaren, took a huge leap towards last yr in identifying the 2018 chassis problems and putting it right in 2019, Sadly I don’t think we’ll see the kind of gains again this year.

With news that the 2021 car is in the Toyota wind tunnel, I’m sure a large % of effort is geared towards MC Merc 2021.

The big question for me is, what will Renault's response be to McLaren this year? Ending 4th last year was a big result for McLaren and they have to really stay on it this year to maintain that position - Renault really don't want them to of course.

Must have been very difficult for both teams to judge how much they need to invest in this year's car to keep the other at bay, Vs how much they invest in the 2021 effort.

I expect Renault to have a few surprise (decent) results, if they can time the engines (aka Red Bull) tactically.

They were particularly strong on high speed tracks, heavy breaking zones & weak on high speed corners, they need to have addressed that this year with improvements to the floor and bargeboards.

Renault have no issues with Mclaren success.

Could they go more extreme with it and focus on building a car just for those tracks they are already strong at? a couple of 3rd and 4th places vs being worth the sacrifice of fighting for lots of 7th and 8th

[Deesee]

slipstream 1985 said:

Could they go more extreme with it and focus on building a car just for those tracks they are already strong at? a couple of 3rd and 4th places vs being worth the sacrifice of fighting for lots of 7th and 8th

Why not? a glory charge to get a podium/keep some sponsors/drivers happy is just as important as midfield WCC money, & TV time moments is important... See Checo and Force India through the years.

(however it should be noted that the best battle of the whole year was not shown on TV at all last yr for 11th!!!)

https://streamable.com/d930w

Renault put Dani Ric on some outlandish strategies to get up the grid following poor quali / grid penalties, and he managed to outscore Nico who had the prime strategy in most of the races.

Would be nice to see a McLaren up on the podium regularly mind!

[HustleRussell]

Deesee said:

slipstream 1985 said:

Could they go more extreme with it and focus on building a car just for those tracks they are already strong at? a couple of 3rd and 4th places vs being worth the sacrifice of fighting for lots of 7th and 8th

Why not? a glory charge to get a podium/keep some sponsors/drivers happy is just as important as midfield WCC money, & TV time moments is important... See Checo and Force India through the years.

(however it should be noted that the best battle of the whole year was not shown on TV at all last yr for 11th!!!)

https://streamable.com/d930w

Renault put Dani Ric on some outlandish strategies to get up the grid following poor quali / grid penalties, and he managed to outscore Nico who had the prime strategy in most of the races.

Would be nice to see a McLaren up on the podium regularly mind!

The money is paid for constructor's championship position- and Mercedes vs. Ferrari has been a great case study for how the 'all-rounder' vs. 'specialist' design philosophy tends to play out.

[Deesee]

HustleRussell said:

The money is paid for constructor's championship position- and Mercedes vs. Ferrari has been a great case study for how the 'all-rounder' vs. 'specialist' design philosophy tends to play out.

I don't think McLaren and Renault are quite looking to step up to Merc & Ferrari levels of performance the $ difference between 4/5th is 5/6 million KIV.

Midfield your fighting conditions, alternative strategy/s & reliability, as well as almost equal race pace with the deltas in the tyre strategy's.

Zak has signed real worldwide blue chip companies, impressive stuff some of the names..

[HustleRussell]

Deesee said:

I don't think McLaren and Renault are quite looking to step up to Merc & Ferrari levels of performance

I didn't say that they were?

[TheDeuce]

Deesee said:

Renault have no issues with Mclaren success.

That's probably true in terms of their engine doing well in F1. It's always good if your customer team performs impressively but I doubt Renault enjoy being overtaken by their customer.

Although as you say, Renault do have obvious areas they can find improvement, with Pat Fry on board I can imagine they could find enough to regain 4th in 2020. I don't have a preference or prediction either way personally - but I do think that it's an interesting story going in to this year. With the top three teams so far ahead and unreachable, 4th in the WCC is these days a very big deal. There is a battle for 1st... and then once that's over all eyes turn to 4th. This might be the last year of that being true - depending on how 2021 onwards works out.

EDIT: Actually 2021 will be decided largely by investment made this year, and last year by the top teams... So I guess, 2022 onwards is the first year of seeing what effect the budget caps have on how far ahead the current top 3 remain. The budget caps not covering everything suggests the big spenders will still lead, but possibly not by such a margin as we've become used to.

Edited by TheDeuce on Monday 27th January 13:21

[Deesee]

HustleRussell said:

Deesee said:

I don't think McLaren and Renault are quite looking to step up to Merc & Ferrari levels of performance

I didn't say that they were?

I thought you were..

HustleRussell said:

The money is paid for constructor's championship position- and Mercedes vs. Ferrari has been a great case study for how the 'all-rounder' vs. 'specialist' design philosophy tends to play out.

& here's my reply, in full..

Deesee said:

I don't think McLaren and Renault are quite looking to step up to Merc & Ferrari levels of performance the $ difference between 4/5th is 5/6 million KIV.

Midfield your fighting conditions, alternative strategy/s & reliability, as well as almost equal race pace with the deltas in the tyre strategy's.

Zak has signed real worldwide blue chip companies, impressive stuff some of the names..

If not we can all move on eh?

[anonymous-user]

Deesee said:

HustleRussell said:

Deesee said:

I don't think McLaren and Renault are quite looking to step up to Merc & Ferrari levels of performance

I didn't say that they were?

I thought you were..

HustleRussell said:

The money is paid for constructor's championship position- and Mercedes vs. Ferrari has been a great case study for how the 'all-rounder' vs. 'specialist' design philosophy tends to play out.

& here's my reply, in full..

Deesee said:

difference between 4/5th is 5/6 million KIV.

Midfield your fighting conditions, alternative strategy/s & reliability, as well as almost equal race pace with the deltas in the tyre strategy's.

Zak has signed real worldwide blue chip companies, impressive stuff some of the names..

If not we can all move on eh?

Just seemed odd that you say “I don't think McLaren and Renault are quite looking to step up to Merc & Ferrari levels of performance” when no one had suggested that they are and I doubt anyone would think that, not in the next year or three in any case.

[Deesee]

REALIST123 said:

Just seemed odd that you say “I don't think McLaren and Renault are quite looking to step up to Merc & Ferrari levels of performance” when no one had suggested that they are and I doubt anyone would think that, not in the next year or three in any case.

That was not the full quote.. it was a $ comparison made between 1/2 and 4/5 and WCC prize moneys received.

If people crop quotes mid sentence it will seem odd, such as what you have just done..

Edited by Deesee on Monday 27th January 14:20

[rdjohn]

Deesee said:

McLaren, took a huge leap towards last yr in identifying the 2018 chassis problems and putting it right in 2019, Sadly I don’t think we’ll see the kind of gains again this year.

With news that the 2021 car is in the Toyota wind tunnel, I’m sure a large % of effort is geared towards MC Merc 2021.

What I was told was that there was a huge gap between the design / manufacture of the 2018 car and the guys in the pits. Not so much as lnot everyone singing from the same hymn sheet”, more that the guys in the garage did not even have a copy of it - everything done on a “need to know” basis. Pat Fry put and end to that.

And I think that Andreas Seildl is probably a Jurgen Klopp in terms team leadership. The big effects of an organisational shift like that are only ever felt once. I feel certain that 4th in the championship is almost a certainty - occasional podiums is now their key target - but then RB Honda are just as desperate to deny them that.

[slipstream 1985]

TheDeuce said:

Deesee said:

Renault have no issues with Mclaren success.

That's probably true in terms of their engine doing well in F1. It's always good if your customer team performs impressively but I doubt Renault enjoy being overtaken by their customer.

Although as you say, Renault do have obvious areas they can find improvement, with Pat Fry on board I can imagine they could find enough to regain 4th in 2020. I don't have a preference or prediction either way personally - but I do think that it's an interesting story going in to this year. With the top three teams so far ahead and unreachable, 4th in the WCC is these days a very big deal. There is a battle for 1st... and then once that's over all eyes turn to 4th. This might be the last year of that being true - depending on how 2021 onwards works out.

EDIT: Actually 2021 will be decided largely by investment made this year, and last year by the top teams... So I guess, 2022 onwards is the first year of seeing what effect the budget caps have on how far ahead the current top 3 remain. The budget caps not covering everything suggests the big spenders will still lead, but possibly not by such a margin as we've become used to.

Edited by TheDeuce on Monday 27th January 13:21

What is nice is years ago we just happy that Hamilton had a challenge from Rosberg.

Now we have Ferrari and Red bull joined in the fight as capable of winning. Mclaren and Renault joining that party would be amazing but still to have a 6 way fight and another 6 way fight (Mclaren Renault torro rosso) really has been good for the sport.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

I wouldn't be surprised (maybe not the right word) if one or two constructors did indeed go for a design that specialises in some minority tracks.

With Honda now capable of powering a winning car as much as Renault the chance to do a 2020 glory race must be worth taking? This year's cars are completely and utterly end of the line, everything but the power plant is scrap in december.

McLaren, or any of the others can grab some headlines, a pole here or there, a top 3 finish, maybe even a win.

[CoolHands]

Interesting point that. Why don’t ferrari gets haas to build a short course car, that will win at small, twisty tracks, purely to disrupt merc?

[anonymous-user]

CoolHands said:

Interesting point that. Why don’t ferrari gets haas to build a short course car, that will win at small, twisty tracks, purely to disrupt merc?

How would that not disrupt Ferrari?

[CoolHands]

Cos it’s number 2 team? They get out the way if ferrari are in position, but don’t if it’s merc

[anonymous-user]

Ferrari need to be faster than Mercedes to make that work.

[CoolHands]

But you could design a strategy to make it work eg ferrari build a faster high speed tracks car (that will be beat merc) so deny merc those points, yet haas deny them the slow speed points. If you pitched it right you could make it that the balance of power goes in Ferrari’s favour