McLaren

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Discussion

CoolHands

10,427 posts

145 months

Monday 27th January
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Cos it’s number 2 team? They get out the way if ferrari are in position, but don’t if it’s merc

jsf

15,113 posts

186 months

Monday 27th January
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Ferrari need to be faster than Mercedes to make that work.

CoolHands

10,427 posts

145 months

Monday 27th January
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But you could design a strategy to make it work eg ferrari build a faster high speed tracks car (that will be beat merc) so deny merc those points, yet haas deny them the slow speed points. If you pitched it right you could make it that the balance of power goes in Ferrari’s favour

TheDeuce

4,217 posts

16 months

Monday 27th January
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jsf said:
CoolHands said:
Interesting point that. Why don’t ferrari gets haas to build a short course car, that will win at small, twisty tracks, purely to disrupt merc?
How would that not disrupt Ferrari?
I was wondering that.

I suppose at races that Ferrari themselves were not strong at, the HAAS car could be used to at least stop Mercedes gaining the win and the associated points.

HAAS would be come a pretty dull place to work at though, fielding a car all season for no reason other than to irritate Mercedes a couple of times year..

What about a tow car? An F1 car designed primarily to provide a near perfect tow to it's big brother every qualifying session? biggrin

Joking aside, as the cost caps take effect we probably will see teams find new ways of making use of their b-teams. Maybe not the above examples... but I think the b-teams are going to prove invaluable and the teams that have one, will have an advantage over those that do not. More so than at present.

jsf

15,113 posts

186 months

Monday 27th January
quotequote all
CoolHands said:
But you could design a strategy to make it work eg ferrari build a faster high speed tracks car (that will be beat merc) so deny merc those points, yet haas deny them the slow speed points. If you pitched it right you could make it that the balance of power goes in Ferrari’s favour
Nah

kiseca

7,854 posts

169 months

Tuesday 28th January
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TheDeuce said:
jsf said:
CoolHands said:
Interesting point that. Why don’t ferrari gets haas to build a short course car, that will win at small, twisty tracks, purely to disrupt merc?
How would that not disrupt Ferrari?
I was wondering that.

I suppose at races that Ferrari themselves were not strong at, the HAAS car could be used to at least stop Mercedes gaining the win and the associated points.

HAAS would be come a pretty dull place to work at though, fielding a car all season for no reason other than to irritate Mercedes a couple of times year..

What about a tow car? An F1 car designed primarily to provide a near perfect tow to it's big brother every qualifying session? biggrin

Joking aside, as the cost caps take effect we probably will see teams find new ways of making use of their b-teams. Maybe not the above examples... but I think the b-teams are going to prove invaluable and the teams that have one, will have an advantage over those that do not. More so than at present.
I think the problem is, it doesn't matter what the other cars are doing, if Ferrari want to beat Merc, they have to finish ahead of Merc, and that matters more than whether the Merc beats Ferrari and wins, or the Merc beats Ferrari but both finish behind a Haas. It has a small impact on the points difference between the two, but I think there are too many other factors to make it a strategy worth pursuing. Not least through the risk of the Haas can beat the Ferraris on the slower tracks but still can't beat the Mercs!

TheDeuce

4,217 posts

16 months

Tuesday 28th January
quotequote all
kiseca said:
TheDeuce said:
jsf said:
CoolHands said:
Interesting point that. Why don’t ferrari gets haas to build a short course car, that will win at small, twisty tracks, purely to disrupt merc?
How would that not disrupt Ferrari?
I was wondering that.

I suppose at races that Ferrari themselves were not strong at, the HAAS car could be used to at least stop Mercedes gaining the win and the associated points.

HAAS would be come a pretty dull place to work at though, fielding a car all season for no reason other than to irritate Mercedes a couple of times year..

What about a tow car? An F1 car designed primarily to provide a near perfect tow to it's big brother every qualifying session? biggrin

Joking aside, as the cost caps take effect we probably will see teams find new ways of making use of their b-teams. Maybe not the above examples... but I think the b-teams are going to prove invaluable and the teams that have one, will have an advantage over those that do not. More so than at present.
I think the problem is, it doesn't matter what the other cars are doing, if Ferrari want to beat Merc, they have to finish ahead of Merc, and that matters more than whether the Merc beats Ferrari and wins, or the Merc beats Ferrari but both finish behind a Haas. It has a small impact on the points difference between the two, but I think there are too many other factors to make it a strategy worth pursuing. Not least through the risk of the Haas can beat the Ferraris on the slower tracks but still can't beat the Mercs!
Not sure if it came across the right way - but I for one was never being serious about some kind of specially designed F1 car, specifically to snatch a few points from Mercedes.. That's just a terrible idea and use for an F1 team.

But I do think that with the cost caps taking real effect 2022 onwards, the b-teams will be very valuable. They can be used to test experimental aero and parts, even run higher engine modes during race distance to test real world reliability. Any team with a b-team, has an extra test bed, potentially shared R&D costs and, every now and then, also some quali or race cooperation perhaps. None of these things will in isolation make a huge difference, but together it all adds up and it adds up to an advantage that only the top teams with their b-teams will have. For that reason, 2022 onwards, I do expect to see b-teams being used a little more sacrificially than today.

An interesting aspect in this, is that Mercedes don't actually have a b-team as such.. At least, if they do, everyone involved is determined that it isn't the case. If Mercedes are to stay in the sport, I think they will need one though - their competitors already have b-teams lined up and effectively fully subservient to them.

The Vambo

3,884 posts

91 months

Tuesday 11th February
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Damnit, now everyone knows who The Vambo really is...

The Vambo said:
Monday 27th May 2019

Until McLaren stopped giving themselves excuses, pointing fingers elsewhere and refusing to take responsibility for their situation they couldn't stop the rot never mind improve.

They had no benchmark for their chassis with Honda power so were more than happy to publicly pass the buck.

Sharing an engine with a similarly sized old hand F1 team that won't take any of your bullst was the first and most important step in McLaren's redemption in my opinion.
Ross Brawn said:
February 2020

“People say they made a big mistake getting rid of Honda," Brawn told Motorsport.com when asked about McLaren's decision.

"But I think funnily enough they almost needed to do that, to recognise what they needed to do within the team.

“They were blaming Honda all the time, and I think they would recognise now that it wasn't true," he added.

"That wasn't everything. In getting rid of Honda and getting a benchmark, they recognised they had to do something with the team."

“I don't know how they would have come to that conclusion unless they put an engine in the back of the car that somebody else was racing, and somebody else was doing well with.

"In doing that they recognised then that they have some bigger problems other than just the engine, and that they had to make some changes.

thegreenhell

6,452 posts

169 months

Tuesday 11th February
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I don't know why they never let another team use the engine at the same time. That would have given them a benchmark and allowed accelerated development of the PU. I know they had exclusivity in the first year, and Honda didn't really have the capacity to support two teams to start with, but they could have brought in another team in years two or three. Sauber were poised to sign up at one point, IIRC.