McLaren

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Fortitude

356 posts

137 months

Sunday 24th June 2018
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old traveller

18 posts

66 months

Tuesday 26th June 2018
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Very erudite and sensible thread! However a few errors, Newey is busy elsewhere and will never go to Woking,and Boullier and Brown have patently fouled up, either by not leading from the front or by being distracted. If we assume Monsieur Brawn is spoken for it does`nt leave many EXPERIENCED leaders willing to take on the job,there was a rumour they were contemplating Horner(with a big share incentive) which I discount as Matschutts(siq) pockets are deep, this leaves very few people. My votes? Patrick Head?
Gil De Ferran(already there),Stoddart, now fight it out!!

HustleRussell

16,783 posts

105 months

Tuesday 26th June 2018
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I don’t see any evidence that the team as a whole is a shambles, they appear to operate quite well at the circuit- they’ve just built a slow car. With no benchmark for the Honda they bought their own hype year after year and blamed their lack of pace on the engine.

It must be pretty easy to conflate low speed trap figures with a lack of power in that scenario, and now they’ve had a rude awakening.

I don’t have a lot of faith in the Daily Mail, so I’m not quite ready to believe the toxic environment / mass worker’s revolt thing.

I just hope they are recruiting, I hope Boullier’s organisational structure is horizontal enough for designers to excel and that they understand the problem. As problems go, very inefficient aero must be a difficult one to turn around quickly.

It seems as much a technical issue as a leadership issue to me.

Are Boullier and Brown the people to sort it out? Not certain, but I don’t think replacing either would be the silver bullet.

I do wish Brown would stop flirting with Indycar etc but he appears to have been charged with doing whatever it takes to retain Alonso.

Let’s not forget how Alonso will create a toxic stink within a team.

It all looks like something of a perfect storm but for all we know they could be a couple of developments away from where they need to be this season i.e. Q3. I would hope Canada and France are as bad as it’ll get for them.

Kraken

1,102 posts

145 months

Tuesday 26th June 2018
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Newey (and others) has designed cars that looked great in the wind tunnel (as per the McLaren) but performed miserably on the track with no easy to find reason why.

It happens. It doesn't mean half the team should be sacked. It's a complex sport.

Fortitude

356 posts

137 months

Tuesday 26th June 2018
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old traveller said:
Very erudite and sensible thread! However a few errors, Newey is busy elsewhere and will never go to Woking,and Boullier and Brown have patently fouled up, either by not leading from the front or by being distracted. If we assume Monsieur Brawn is spoken for it does`nt leave many EXPERIENCED leaders willing to take on the job,there was a rumour they were contemplating Horner(with a big share incentive) which I discount as Matschutts(siq) pockets are deep, this leaves very few people. My votes? Patrick Head?
Gil De Ferran(already there),Stoddart, now fight it out!!
Your votes: Patrick Head to McLaren?

That would be as realistic, as Ron Dennis going to Williams!

Sa Calobra

28,905 posts

156 months

Tuesday 26th June 2018
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They can't blame the engine anymore.

The whole car sans engine is bad.

The driver isn't great either. I don't get the respect Alonso gets or the 'hes got talent, just needs the car'.

Even with a Mercedes engine they'd be on the same positions. Slightly ironic that Alonso is back in the team he tried to frag once and is fragging again.


StevieBee

7,864 posts

200 months

Tuesday 26th June 2018
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Sa Calobra said:
The driver isn't great either. I don't get the respect Alonso gets or the 'hes got talent, just needs the car'.
Alonso's stock is weighted by the presence of two WDC titles and a recognised gift to extract performance from any car beyond the capabilities of others.

His win at Le Mans was impressive but hardly a demonstration of his prowess. I wonder how he would have faired against a Lotterer in an Audi or a Webber in a Porsche. Either way, the absence of competition means that the win regardless of anything else is a tick in the box that supports the regard in which he is held by many.

I know this subject has been done to death - and for the record, I do like Alonso as a driver and personality, but he is the victim of his own doing.

But...he is a very experienced driver. Were he at Williams, I think there is little doubt their aero woes would have been spotted and fixed sooner as he would be able to have identified the issues from a driver's perspective. The fact that he has had little or no impact on the performance of the McLaren is more telling of issues McLaren has rather than any deficiency on Alosno's part (IMO).

cuprabob

7,885 posts

159 months

Tuesday 26th June 2018
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StevieBee said:
Sa Calobra said:
The driver isn't great either. I don't get the respect Alonso gets or the 'hes got talent, just needs the car'.
Alonso's stock is weighted by the presence of two WDC titles and a recognised gift to extract performance from any car beyond the capabilities of others.

His win at Le Mans was impressive but hardly a demonstration of his prowess. I wonder how he would have faired against a Lotterer in an Audi or a Webber in a Porsche.
While you are correct, I'm led to believe that the night stint that Alonso drove at Le Mans was very impressive.

StevieBee

7,864 posts

200 months

Tuesday 26th June 2018
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cuprabob said:
StevieBee said:
Sa Calobra said:
The driver isn't great either. I don't get the respect Alonso gets or the 'hes got talent, just needs the car'.
Alonso's stock is weighted by the presence of two WDC titles and a recognised gift to extract performance from any car beyond the capabilities of others.

His win at Le Mans was impressive but hardly a demonstration of his prowess. I wonder how he would have faired against a Lotterer in an Audi or a Webber in a Porsche.
While you are correct, I'm led to believe that the night stint that Alonso drove at Le Mans was very impressive.
Very much so...and visibly so. But without comparison of other drivers in other teams, it's not possible to say whether it would have been any better or worse than others.

Bit like England v Panama. Great score and all that.....but it was Panama!


Dr Z

2,954 posts

116 months

Tuesday 26th June 2018
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We know that Honda missed their target of matching Mercedes 2016 power levels for the start of 2017 by some distance. Mercedes also found a big chunk of power for their 2017 engine.

McLaren were forced to run a car designed for 2016 Mercedes power in a compromised state for the majority of the 2017 season. They didn't have any other Honda powered car as a benchmark from 2015- 2017. So they rely on numbers they see in their simulations, which needless to say may not always match reality.

It's easy to see why/how McLaren would have believed they could win with Mercedes/Renault power. Perhaps, their numbers started to get out of kilter with reality gradually during the time they were powered by Honda and has led them to the state they are in now. Would explain Tim Goss being fired.

So, who was it that put the deal together that gave them a veto over who gets supplied by Honda? And guarantees exclusive supply from Honda? Who was it that put the team of heads (of whatever) together that have presided over the chassis and losing the Honda deal from 2015-present?

The blame for McLaren's decline lies firmly on these persons shoulders.

dr_gn

12,603 posts

129 months

Tuesday 26th June 2018
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Dr Z said:
The blame for McLaren's decline lies firmly on these persons shoulders.
The responsibility may ultimately lay with them.

The whole deal could have gone either way, and if it had gone as intended, that person would be hailed as a genius right now.

So easy to criticise with hindsight.

Andy S15

376 posts

72 months

Tuesday 26th June 2018
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All things considered, the only people I have sympathy for are the Mclaren employees. Alonso and senior management have a lot to answer for here - there was a culture of blame within Mclaren during the Honda period which has only served to destroy morale. They've made their collective bed.

I'd be interested in hindsight to know if they would have done better or worse this year had they stuck with Honda.

Dr Z

2,954 posts

116 months

Tuesday 26th June 2018
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dr_gn said:
Dr Z said:
The blame for McLaren's decline lies firmly on these persons shoulders.
The responsibility may ultimately lay with them.

The whole deal could have gone either way, and if it had gone as intended, that person would be hailed as a genius right now.

So easy to criticise with hindsight.
McLaren had seen how badly Ferrari and Renault got it wrong in 2014 with their engines, and knew the restrictions with the engine regulations for the future years. What were the incumbent leadership doing with this level of hindsight?

After the appalling year they had in 2015, Honda improved in 2016. This would have been another great opportunity for them rope another team in for 2017 when the engine development restrictions were taken off. But the leadership again were involved in some in-fighting, to see the big picture.

It would have helped Honda greatly to have another team running their engines in the 2017 pre-season test. It would have helped McLaren to see how good or bad their car was performing relative to another car with the same engine. I would be willing to bet McLaren would be running Honda engines right now and be significantly well off financially if the leadership had some level of foresight or racing nous in this period.

thegreenhell

6,096 posts

164 months

Tuesday 26th June 2018
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Their main problem was arrogance. They are McLaren and they know best...

WestyCarl

2,127 posts

70 months

Tuesday 26th June 2018
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Might as well join in the guessing........

I reckon it's the complicated "matrix" structure they introduced a good few years ago. We introduced one at work and all it seems good for is not making decisions and no-one taking responsibility.

F1 teams on the whole have done well when there was a defined Technical Leader who was responsible not some "everyone's partly responsible structure"


dr_gn

12,603 posts

129 months

Tuesday 26th June 2018
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Gaz. said:
dr_gn said:
The responsibility may ultimately lay with them.

The whole deal could have gone either way, and if it had gone as intended, that person would be hailed as a genius right now.

So easy to criticise with hindsight.
He isn’t criticising with hindsight though, there’s loads of posts on here in real time commenting as events unfolded or even before them that Mclaren were making disastrous decisions pretty much from day 1.
And of course commenting with full knowledge of the background and reasons - technical and contractural - for every decision made within McLaren before, during and after their association with Honda?

I'm surprised there aren't any multi-championship winning F1 team owners on here by now, with the amazing depth of knowledge and prescience available.

Rude-boy

22,155 posts

178 months

Tuesday 26th June 2018
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StevieBee said:
Very much so...and visibly so. But without comparison of other drivers in other teams, it's not possible to say whether it would have been any better or worse than others.

Bit like England v Panama. Great score and all that.....but it was Panama!
There are many who would say that there were 5 other drivers who could be used as a direct comparison to Alonso - in the same cars as well (exactly the same in the case of 2 of them).

Personally i don't think Webber would have seen much more than a disappearing rear wing of the Toyota until it came back to lap him again. Lotti however might just have given him a better run for his money.

Rich_W

10,550 posts

157 months

Tuesday 26th June 2018
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If you want to replace Boulier then you've got to look at people who've won championships as managers. (which wiki reveals in EBs case hasn't been that much)

Look at GP2/ F2 Maybe even WRC teams.

Who are the current team principal of ART, RussianTime (aka iSport) Dams. Prema etc. Get on the phone to them

Horner came from Arden (via his dealings with Mateschitz) You need proven winners

hairyben

8,516 posts

128 months

Tuesday 26th June 2018
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Andy S15 said:
All things considered, the only people I have sympathy for are the Mclaren employees. Alonso and senior management have a lot to answer for here - there was a culture of blame within Mclaren during the Honda period which has only served to destroy morale. They've made their collective bed.

I'd be interested in hindsight to know if they would have done better or worse this year had they stuck with Honda.
I've found the way they seem to idolize alonso, whatever he does or says, most peculiar.

Fortitude

356 posts

137 months

Tuesday 26th June 2018
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dr_gn said:
I'm surprised there aren't any multi-championship winning F1 team owners on here by now, with the amazing depth of knowledge and prescience available.
So what do you think is the problem with McLaren?
How do you reckon McLaren got into this predicament?
How can McLaren solve their current problems with the car?
What does the future hold for McLaren?