McLaren

Author
Discussion

LaurasOtherHalf

14,315 posts

134 months

Tuesday 15th January
quotequote all
Vaud said:
thegreenhell said:
He was originally hired in a commercial role reporting to Ron Dennis, who was still in charge of the team at the time. He was supposedly going to get the new sponsors rolling in. Having completely failed on that front, he seems to have somehow ended up in charge of the whole party after the coup to remove RD, despite apparently having no prior experience of running a company of this size. I have no idea how he has achieved this.
Erm, he is a very smart man (and former racer)?
I don't doubt he's a very smart man, I'm just of the thought that he's completely out of his depth at what was his role. He may have agreed considering the recent appointment.

When you consider any successful team in F1 have they ever had anything but a fantastic team manager at the helm? Being a competent (or even exemplary CEO) is not the same thing, never mind a marketing guru (hello Arrivebene)-and if Zak is the marketing genius who can bring in the big name sponsors just how bad would things at McLaren have been without him?

Or, he simply isn't suited to the roles he was promoted to within McLaren, by which I mean he wasn't very good at them.

He waffles a good talk but has so far shown a complete lack of results. I don't think it should be underestimated just how poor McLaren have been over the past few years and their decisions appear from the outside to be completely at odds of what is needed.

F1 is a vastly different sport to football but like it or lump it, like every great football team needs a fantastic manager so does every other sporting team.

HighwayStar

2,139 posts

82 months

Tuesday 15th January
quotequote all
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Vaud said:
thegreenhell said:
He was originally hired in a commercial role reporting to Ron Dennis, who was still in charge of the team at the time. He was supposedly going to get the new sponsors rolling in. Having completely failed on that front, he seems to have somehow ended up in charge of the whole party after the coup to remove RD, despite apparently having no prior experience of running a company of this size. I have no idea how he has achieved this.
Erm, he is a very smart man (and former racer)?
I don't doubt he's a very smart man, I'm just of the thought that he's completely out of his depth at what was his role. He may have agreed considering the recent appointment.

When you consider any successful team in F1 have they ever had anything but a fantastic team manager at the helm? Being a competent (or even exemplary CEO) is not the same thing, never mind a marketing guru (hello Arrivebene)-and if Zak is the marketing genius who can bring in the big name sponsors just how bad would things at McLaren have been without him?

Or, he simply isn't suited to the roles he was promoted to within McLaren, by which I mean he wasn't very good at them.

He waffles a good talk but has so far shown a complete lack of results. I don't think it should be underestimated just how poor McLaren have been over the past few years and their decisions appear from the outside to be completely at odds of what is needed.

F1 is a vastly different sport to football but like it or lump it, like every great football team needs a fantastic manager so does every other sporting team.
You also need the right people in the right positions, know what their individual roles and responsibilities are but being about working as a team in pursuit of a common goal. Style of management and moving with the times is another thing.

rdjohn

3,119 posts

133 months

Tuesday 15th January
quotequote all
n3il123 said:
I can't get over the management structure there:

Zak Brown - CEO
Jonathon Neale - COO Mclaren Group
Gil De Ferran - Sporting Director
Simon Roberts - COO Mclaren Racing
John Cooper - Chief Business Officer
Peter Prodromou - Chief Enginerr Aero
Paul James - Team Manager

And now they have got Andreas Seidl joining from Porsche in a as yet unannounced position.

With a management structure like that i'm not surprised they don't know what they're doing!
There is another name missing from that list and from what I have heard recently, he is making an impact in pointing out the bleedingly obvious shortcomings in communication between the design office and the coal face. The same faultlines probably exist elsewhere in the organisation, so the new blood can make a big difference and put Brown as the spokesperson / overseer rather than having a huge influence on outcomes.

Given that McLaren still managed 5th in the WCC last year, despite having an absolute dog of a car, they clearly have potential to move forward this year. Just how far will probably depend more on how good the RIC / Renault and RB / Honda combinations perform.

I still live in hope that they may, one day, return to being a force to be reckoned with. A future budget cap will obviously assist them greatly in that objective.


ralphrj

2,777 posts

129 months

Tuesday 15th January
quotequote all
rdjohn said:
Given that McLaren still managed 5th in the WCC last year, despite having an absolute dog of a car, they clearly have potential to move forward this year.
1. McLaren finished 6th last year not 5th.

2. They only beat Force India by 10 points after their results from the first 12 races were scrubbed. Force India scored 59 points in those 12 races.

3. The points gap between 5th placed Haas and 6th placed McLaren was bigger than that points gap between 6th placed McLaren and 9th placed Scuderia Toro Rosso.

4. 50 of McLaren's 62 points were scored by Alonso. I do not think either of their drivers for 2019 are in the same class as Alonso.

LaurasOtherHalf

14,315 posts

134 months

Tuesday 15th January
quotequote all
rdjohn said:
I still live in hope that they may, one day, return to being a force to be reckoned with. A future budget cap will obviously assist them greatly in that objective.
That’s an interesting viewpoint, I’d have thought if they’ve struggled to spend their way out of trouble this far, I can’t figure out how a level financial playing field would assist them further?

Advertisement

ralphrj

2,777 posts

129 months

Tuesday 15th January
quotequote all
LaurasOtherHalf said:
That’s an interesting viewpoint, I’d have thought if they’ve struggled to spend their way out of trouble this far, I can’t figure out how a level financial playing field would assist them further?
Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull have considerably bigger budgets than the rest which is why they have opened up such a gap to the other teams. The budget cap would, at least, prevent them pulling further away.

Vaud

30,831 posts

93 months

Tuesday 15th January
quotequote all
LaurasOtherHalf said:
That’s an interesting viewpoint, I’d have thought if they’ve struggled to spend their way out of trouble this far, I can’t figure out how a level financial playing field would assist them further?
Nor can I. They haven't been effective with their current spend, so if the playing field is more level then what is to stop them being last?

rdjohn

3,119 posts

133 months

Tuesday 15th January
quotequote all
ralphrj said:
1. McLaren finished 6th last year not 5th.

2. They only beat Force India by 10 points after their results from the first 12 races were scrubbed. Force India scored 59 points in those 12 races.

3. The points gap between 5th placed Haas and 6th placed McLaren was bigger than that points gap between 6th placed McLaren and 9th placed Scuderia Toro Rosso.

4. 50 of McLaren's 62 points were scored by Alonso. I do not think either of their drivers for 2019 are in the same class as Alonso.
90%, or more, of a team’s performance comes from the car.

You can’t polish a turd.

rdjohn

3,119 posts

133 months

Tuesday 15th January
quotequote all
Vaud said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
That’s an interesting viewpoint, I’d have thought if they’ve struggled to spend their way out of trouble this far, I can’t figure out how a level financial playing field would assist them further?
Nor can I. They haven't been effective with their current spend, so if the playing field is more level then what is to stop them being last?
Without a budget cap, the four works teams will always be dominant. McLaren are now just another league-2 customer team.

I do not believe that Liberty will allow that situation to remain, in the longer term.

tigerkoi

2,388 posts

136 months

Tuesday 15th January
quotequote all
thegreenhell said:
ralphrj said:
When Zak Brown was first announced I thought it was a good appointment but as more time passes he seems to be full of nothing but hot air.
He was originally hired in a commercial role reporting to Ron Dennis, who was still in charge of the team at the time. He was supposedly going to get the new sponsors rolling in. Having completely failed on that front, he seems to have somehow ended up in charge of the whole party after the coup to remove RD, despite apparently having no prior experience of running a company of this size. I have no idea how he has achieved this.
It’s called the Peter principle isn’t it? Being promoted to your “level of incompetence”...

I’ve got a late edition of Laurence Peter’s book. Kept in the mini library in one of the WC’s. Chapter 5 is great, focussing on how you achieve promotion in a role; the traditional way of doing it - working hard, courses for self improvement etc - is considered a bit ineffective, usually. Because you’re basically hindered by the Seniority Factor, where your path is blocked anyway as it’s fully manned by more tenured incompetents, by and large. Murdering your immediate seniors is a potential option but considered to be an extreme approach.

tigerkoi

2,388 posts

136 months

Tuesday 15th January
quotequote all
HighwayStar said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Vaud said:
thegreenhell said:
He was originally hired in a commercial role reporting to Ron Dennis, who was still in charge of the team at the time. He was supposedly going to get the new sponsors rolling in. Having completely failed on that front, he seems to have somehow ended up in charge of the whole party after the coup to remove RD, despite apparently having no prior experience of running a company of this size. I have no idea how he has achieved this.
Erm, he is a very smart man (and former racer)?
I don't doubt he's a very smart man, I'm just of the thought that he's completely out of his depth at what was his role. He may have agreed considering the recent appointment.

When you consider any successful team in F1 have they ever had anything but a fantastic team manager at the helm? Being a competent (or even exemplary CEO) is not the same thing, never mind a marketing guru (hello Arrivebene)-and if Zak is the marketing genius who can bring in the big name sponsors just how bad would things at McLaren have been without him?

Or, he simply isn't suited to the roles he was promoted to within McLaren, by which I mean he wasn't very good at them.

He waffles a good talk but has so far shown a complete lack of results. I don't think it should be underestimated just how poor McLaren have been over the past few years and their decisions appear from the outside to be completely at odds of what is needed.

F1 is a vastly different sport to football but like it or lump it, like every great football team needs a fantastic manager so does every other sporting team.
You also need the right people in the right positions, know what their individual roles and responsibilities are but being about working as a team in pursuit of a common goal. Style of management and moving with the times is another thing.
I urge you guys to see the Amazon Prime documentary - if you hadn’t done so already. I’m unashamedly someone who gets more focussed when I see organisational chaos and atrophy (money to be made, power to be grabbed), but the doc really does highlight in some areas why the place is a mess. Nuanced and low key perhaps, but for those who see the signs it’s fairly plain.

Think I’ve mentioned it before, but there’s a really illuminating scene: ZB gets out of a chauffeured RR. Already there are manservants present handling his suit carriers, opening doors, handing him briefs of the current situation. He doesn’t read them; ignores, almost. ZB bounces around the Woking setup, an ‘uh huh’ here and there. Then a camera crew suddenly presents itself at an event. The glare of the light seems to fire him up, and he comes alive.

He’s a consummate media professional. Of no doubt. But beyond running a bath, his skill set seems a touch lacking when you’re looking for more accurate management with the right blend of strategic and visionary leadership. A corporate foghorn, max.

LaurasOtherHalf

14,315 posts

134 months

Tuesday 15th January
quotequote all
rdjohn said:
Vaud said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
That’s an interesting viewpoint, I’d have thought if they’ve struggled to spend their way out of trouble this far, I can’t figure out how a level financial playing field would assist them further?
Nor can I. They haven't been effective with their current spend, so if the playing field is more level then what is to stop them being last?
Without a budget cap, the four works teams will always be dominant. McLaren are now just another league-2 customer team.

I do not believe that Liberty will allow that situation to remain, in the longer term.
But McLaren weren't a league 2 customer team prior to last year. In fact they have only been a customer team for a tiny proportion of their modern incarnation.

Works Mercedes status alluded them once Mercedes decided to go it alone but they got that back with Honda, they were and could still be one of the Four works teams but they bloody well gave it up and pandered to the Spanish agitator instead.

Instead of Zak Brown's special paint schemes and doting radio messages at Abu Dhabi he should have been on the phone saying why on earth did we give up a manufacturer status to keep this this prima donna happy? Adios Fernando


Piginapoke

650 posts

123 months

Tuesday 15th January
quotequote all
Vaud said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
That’s an interesting viewpoint, I’d have thought if they’ve struggled to spend their way out of trouble this far, I can’t figure out how a level financial playing field would assist them further?
Nor can I. They haven't been effective with their current spend, so if the playing field is more level then what is to stop them being last?
Williams.

tight fart

1,154 posts

211 months

Wednesday 16th January
quotequote all
What Amazon prime documentary?

HighwayStar

2,139 posts

82 months

Wednesday 16th January
quotequote all
tight fart said:
What Amazon prime documentary?
This one:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/GRAND-PRIX-Driver-Season-...

A new behind-the-scenes Amazon documentary on the McLaren F1 team has revealed how genuine fears were that Fernando Alonso would quit on the eve of the 2017 season – and there being a risk of team "collapse". The series "Grand Prix Driver", which is narrated by Michael Douglas ...

Fortitude

293 posts

130 months

Friday 18th January
quotequote all
Hype up a Coca Cola deal, then announce a fake photo... I DO hope this year, the performance of the F1 car is NOT over hyped too...


'Leaked' McLaren 2019 photo was a fake
By GMM F1

Late last season, the struggling British team announced a minor on-car deal with Coca-Cola.

"I think they are a great entry into the sport," team boss Zak Brown said at the time. "They will help bring a younger audience and it's great for McLaren.

"Hopefully it will be a successful partnership that will go on into the future."

And according to the supposedly leaked teaser image, it looked as though Coca-Cola was indeed continuing and ramping up the deal for 2019.

It was claimed that McLaren uploaded an image to its Facebook page that showed the orange 2019 car with prominent Coca-Cola branding on the rear wing.

But McLaren says the image was not leaked, but actually a fake. The team said it was never added to its official Facebook page.

"It's a fake that was made by an amateur," a source close to Carlos Sainz told the Spanish sports newspaper Marca.

"The real images will not be seen until February 14," the source added.

McLaren confirmed that the image was a fake.

https://www.sportsmole.co.uk/football/barcelona/ne...

tight fart

1,154 posts

211 months

Saturday 19th January
quotequote all
Thanks will watch the amazon documentary.

That's funny about Coca Cola.

I spent an hour with the chairman of Coca Cola recently and I asked why they had never got involved in F1.

Smollet

4,453 posts

128 months

Saturday 19th January
quotequote all
tight fart said:
Thanks will watch the amazon documentary.

That's funny about Coca Cola.

I spent an hour with the chairman of Coca Cola recently and I asked why they had never got involved in F1.
....and?

Vaud

30,831 posts

93 months

Saturday 19th January
quotequote all
tight fart said:
Thanks will watch the amazon documentary.

That's funny about Coca Cola.

I spent an hour with the chairman of Coca Cola recently and I asked why they had never got involved in F1.
But they did through other CC brands like burn.

https://www.coca-colacompany.com/f1-racing-the-rig...

rallycross

9,563 posts

175 months

Sunday 20th January
quotequote all
Thanks had not heard about the doc have just watched it, interesting to see and amazing how things change so quickly in F1.

Didn’t realise Matt Bishop the journalist had got a senior job with McLaren.