McLaren

McLaren

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dr_gn

14,615 posts

148 months

Tuesday 26th June 2018
quotequote all
Fortitude said:
dr_gn said:
I'm surprised there aren't any multi-championship winning F1 team owners on here by now, with the amazing depth of knowledge and prescience available.
So what do you think is the problem with McLaren?
How do you reckon McLaren got into this predicament?
How can McLaren solve their current problems with the car?
What does the future hold for McLaren?
Who cares?

Paul578

58 posts

71 months

Tuesday 26th June 2018
quotequote all
Rich_W said:
If you want to replace Boulier then you've got to look at people who've won championships as managers. (which wiki reveals in EBs case hasn't been that much)

Look at GP2/ F2 Maybe even WRC teams.

Who are the current team principal of ART, RussianTime (aka iSport) Dams. Prema etc. Get on the phone to them

Horner came from Arden (via his dealings with Mateschitz) You need proven winners
Would the situation have been any different if Jost Capito had actually got a fair crack of the whip to sort McLaren out rather than being booted out when Zak Brown arrived on the scene? Maybe the groups diversification plan implemented by Dennis and Neale was the straw that broke the F1 teams back?

Fire99

9,776 posts

193 months

Wednesday 27th June 2018
quotequote all
Fortitude said:
So what do you think is the problem with McLaren?
How do you reckon McLaren got into this predicament?
How can McLaren solve their current problems with the car?
What does the future hold for McLaren?
Most of the above is probably as complex as an F1 car is, but as a starting point I'd say the team need a very strong leader at the top with a very clear vision.

Just for an example, look at Apple. In 1996 it was nearly bankrupt but Steve Jobs was put back in at the helm in 1997 as interim CEO and Apple started one of the most dramatic turn-arounds in history..

This isn't a recommendation to get Ron Dennis back but from the outside, McLaren appear all out at sea with lots of little rudders turning the 'ship' around in circles. It needs a very strong hand and a very strong vision / plan.

That's my 50p

mcdjl

4,612 posts

159 months

Wednesday 27th June 2018
quotequote all
Fire99 said:
Most of the above is probably as complex as an F1 car is, but as a starting point I'd say the team need a very strong leader at the top with a very clear vision.

Just for an example, look at Apple. In 1996 it was nearly bankrupt but Steve Jobs was put back in at the helm in 1997 as interim CEO and Apple started one of the most dramatic turn-arounds in history..

This isn't a recommendation to get Ron Dennis back but from the outside, McLaren appear all out at sea with lots of little rudders turning the 'ship' around in circles. It needs a very strong hand and a very strong vision / plan.

That's my 50p
They need to stop changing the captain every other year when the current one doesn't immediately save them. Every team goes through ups and downs, Ferrari and Mclaren included. Why are Williams now accepted as being privateer and allowed to be second rate while Mclaren must be winning? If it takes 1/2 years to design an F1 car you need to get the team in place before that to get it done. Changing the people half way through won't help things.

Dr Z

3,396 posts

135 months

Wednesday 27th June 2018
quotequote all
dr_gn said:
Gaz. said:
dr_gn said:
The responsibility may ultimately lay with them.

The whole deal could have gone either way, and if it had gone as intended, that person would be hailed as a genius right now.

So easy to criticise with hindsight.
He isn’t criticising with hindsight though, there’s loads of posts on here in real time commenting as events unfolded or even before them that Mclaren were making disastrous decisions pretty much from day 1.
And of course commenting with full knowledge of the background and reasons - technical and contractural - for every decision made within McLaren before, during and after their association with Honda?

I'm surprised there aren't any multi-championship winning F1 team owners on here by now, with the amazing depth of knowledge and prescience available.
All the more surprising that the real multi-championship winning F1 team owners made such rubbish decisions one after another, that even us lowly nameless posters on PH found so perplexing at the time.

Frimley111R

11,388 posts

198 months

Wednesday 27th June 2018
quotequote all
Fortitude said:
So what do you think is the problem with McLaren?
The chassis has too much drag and is simply not good enough. Ron Dennis drove the team to competitiveness but now he's gone. A bit like Man Utd with Fergie.

Fortitude said:
How do you reckon McLaren got into this predicament?
Poor decision on swapping to Honda who had zero skill or experience in modern F1 engines. When I say poor and mean shockingly poor. See above regarding RD

Fortitude said:
How can McLaren solve their current problems with the car?
Slowly, it all takes time and it will take a few years to get back to the front of the grid.

Fortitude said:
What does the future hold for McLaren?
Short term pain without doubt and that short term is at least 2 years, probably more. Long term, who knows? A lot can change. They may be the new Williams or they may be the new Mercedes.

Fortitude

491 posts

156 months

Wednesday 27th June 2018
quotequote all
BIG thank you to the replies from;

Fire99 for his 50p on strong leadership.

mcdjl about the ‘changing the captain’ revolving door analysis.

Frimley111R for ‘chassis drag’, ‘hero to zero’ engine swapping.

Gaz. For an analysis which should merit his IMMEDIATE appointment at McLaren.


Sad to even think of the possibility that McLaren could eventually go the way of Lotus and Brabham, if they don’t sort this mess out.

Which leads one to perhaps realise, why Ron Dennis MAY have sold ALL his McLaren shares…


Ron Dennis Ends Association With McLaren After 37 Years; Sells Shares

https://auto.ndtv.com/news/ron-dennis-ends-associa...

StevieBee

9,592 posts

219 months

Wednesday 27th June 2018
quotequote all
It's worth remembering that the one thing McLaren has in its favour is money. Lots and lots of it via Mumtalakat whose wealth reserves are such that McLaren's budget could be doubled and still run from their petty cash tin.

This is course is dependant upon Mumtalakat's continued enthusiasm for it but given their involvement (IIRC) with the Road Car division as well, I don't anticipate much will change any time soon.

Money doesn't solve everything (see Toyota F1 for more information) but having it is better than not.


hairyben

8,516 posts

147 months

Wednesday 27th June 2018
quotequote all
StevieBee said:
It's worth remembering that the one thing McLaren has in its favour is money. Lots and lots of it via Mumtalakat whose wealth reserves are such that McLaren's budget could be doubled and still run from their petty cash tin.

This is course is dependant upon Mumtalakat's continued enthusiasm for it but given their involvement (IIRC) with the Road Car division as well, I don't anticipate much will change any time soon.

Money doesn't solve everything (see Toyota F1 for more information) but having it is better than not.
While it might appear better from within, being kept afloat at the whim of a rich benefactor isn't actually a great place to be at all. Many would argue being allowed to fail and starting again in some form, refocussed, leaner and wiser, is healthier.

ralphrj

3,085 posts

155 months

Wednesday 27th June 2018
quotequote all
StevieBee said:
It's worth remembering that the one thing McLaren has in its favour is money. Lots and lots of it via Mumtalakat whose wealth reserves are such that McLaren's budget could be doubled and still run from their petty cash tin.

This is course is dependant upon Mumtalakat's continued enthusiasm for it but given their involvement (IIRC) with the Road Car division as well, I don't anticipate much will change any time soon.

Money doesn't solve everything (see Toyota F1 for more information) but having it is better than not.
Actually they don't have money. The Bahrainis weren't prepared to put more cash in to buy out Ron Dennis. Instead the Company had to borrow the money to pay for the restructure.

The new McLaren Group issued bonds for a total of £560m. The buy back of Ron's share was £200m, the combined overdrafts were paid off (£223m), they paid of some shareholder loans (£8m) and incurred a total of £38m of transaction fees.

At the end of March 2018 they had only £40m left in the bank - a reasonable sum of money until you realise that the Group spent £59m more than they raised in the first 3 months of 2018.

The investment by Nidala (Michael Latifi) will offset that in Q2 but McLaren have already admitted that they are selling off the heritage assets of the F1 team to balance the books.

The threat by Trump to impose a 25% tariff on cars manufactured in the EU and sold into the US (McLaren's biggest market) must be deeply concerning for the Board.

Frimley111R

11,388 posts

198 months

Wednesday 27th June 2018
quotequote all
Nice insight. Selling of heritage items won't make much of a dent in the F1 budget deficit.

ralphrj

3,085 posts

155 months

Wednesday 27th June 2018
quotequote all
Frimley111R said:
Nice insight. Selling of heritage items won't make much of a dent in the F1 budget deficit.
Hard to say, at the moment we don't know which cars are for sale (or the ones sold last year but I wonder if McLaren were the sellers of the Senna MP4/8 sold at auction recently).

Senna's MP4/4 might be worth £10m?

Le Mans winning Ueno Clinic F1 GTR £20m?

The problem is that once they are sold you can't sell them again.

Sa Calobra

30,730 posts

175 months

Wednesday 27th June 2018
quotequote all
Even with a Renault engine they aren't even close to troubling RB.

I think McLaren will post warnings within a year. Can't see anyway they'll climb out of this.

StevieBee

9,592 posts

219 months

Wednesday 27th June 2018
quotequote all
ralphrj said:
StevieBee said:
It's worth remembering that the one thing McLaren has in its favour is money. Lots and lots of it via Mumtalakat whose wealth reserves are such that McLaren's budget could be doubled and still run from their petty cash tin.

This is course is dependant upon Mumtalakat's continued enthusiasm for it but given their involvement (IIRC) with the Road Car division as well, I don't anticipate much will change any time soon.

Money doesn't solve everything (see Toyota F1 for more information) but having it is better than not.
Actually they don't have money. The Bahrainis weren't prepared to put more cash in to buy out Ron Dennis. Instead the Company had to borrow the money to pay for the restructure.

The new McLaren Group issued bonds for a total of £560m. The buy back of Ron's share was £200m, the combined overdrafts were paid off (£223m), they paid of some shareholder loans (£8m) and incurred a total of £38m of transaction fees.

At the end of March 2018 they had only £40m left in the bank - a reasonable sum of money until you realise that the Group spent £59m more than they raised in the first 3 months of 2018.

The investment by Nidala (Michael Latifi) will offset that in Q2 but McLaren have already admitted that they are selling off the heritage assets of the F1 team to balance the books.

The threat by Trump to impose a 25% tariff on cars manufactured in the EU and sold into the US (McLaren's biggest market) must be deeply concerning for the Board.
When the situation is set out as clearly and starkly as that, you can't help but think this is all stupid money really - just to go racing. Max had a point, didn't he!

What's Toyota's LMP1 budget?.. $40m pa or thereabouts. Chalk and cheese I know but not so much as to exclude the comparison.

A very sad state of affairs when a team has to sell the family silver to wash its financial face.





thegreenhell

8,407 posts

183 months

Wednesday 27th June 2018
quotequote all
ralphrj said:
Frimley111R said:
Nice insight. Selling of heritage items won't make much of a dent in the F1 budget deficit.
Hard to say, at the moment we don't know which cars are for sale (or the ones sold last year but I wonder if McLaren were the sellers of the Senna MP4/8 sold at auction recently).

Senna's MP4/4 might be worth £10m?

Le Mans winning Ueno Clinic F1 GTR £20m?

The problem is that once they are sold you can't sell them again.
The MP4/8 was one that they'd already sold to a private collector a few years ago. Back then they used to build at least 5 or 6 cars every season, some as spares, some as test cars, so they will have a lot of cars potentially to sell while still retaining at least one example of each type.

I think the Le Mans GTR would be more than £20m. A lot more. F1 road cars are not far off that now.

ralphrj

3,085 posts

155 months

Wednesday 27th June 2018
quotequote all
thegreenhell said:
I think the Le Mans GTR would be more than £20m. A lot more. F1 road cars are not far off that now.
Very hard to put values on something so unique.

I think that in the flemke F1 thread flemke himself said that the GTR F1s don't fetch as much money as the road cars. However, none of those GTRs was the Le Mans winning car.

I was certain that the MP4/8 would set a new record* for an F1 car but it sold for much less than I thought it would. The final price was €4,197,500. I thought it would make over €10m.


  • Schumacher's Monaco winning F2001 was auctioned for $7,504,000 last year.

ralphrj

3,085 posts

155 months

Wednesday 27th June 2018
quotequote all
thegreenhell said:
The MP4/8 was one that they'd already sold to a private collector a few years ago.
Do you know how long ago?

I ask as the accounts for McLaren show the sales of heritage assets and from memory the only sale in recent years was the MP4-16 to Zak Brown.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just curious.

Kraken

1,647 posts

164 months

Wednesday 27th June 2018
quotequote all
Sa Calobra said:
Even with a Renault engine they aren't even close to troubling RB.

I think McLaren will post warnings within a year. Can't see anyway they'll climb out of this.
Profit warnings? Don't think so. There's a lot more to McLaren than an F1 team.

ralphrj

3,085 posts

155 months

Wednesday 27th June 2018
quotequote all
Kraken said:
Sa Calobra said:
Even with a Renault engine they aren't even close to troubling RB.

I think McLaren will post warnings within a year. Can't see anyway they'll climb out of this.
Profit warnings? Don't think so. There's a lot more to McLaren than an F1 team.
There won't be a profit warning as McLaren is not a publicly traded company.

Whilst there might be more to McLaren than the F1 team they still aren't making any money.

In total the combined McLaren Group lost £44m before tax in 2017. They lost another £25m in the first 3 months of 2018.


I see that former designer John Barnard is questioning whether the team can survive.

Dr Z

3,396 posts

135 months

Wednesday 27th June 2018
quotequote all
Fortitude said:
How can McLaren solve their current problems with the car?
What does the future hold for McLaren?
McLaren have made big gains in performance over their previous Honda powered car in race pace this year, that much is obvious. The updates haven't come thick and fast as they usually do, and they do seem to be conducting a lot of experiments at the track to identify problems they are having, problems that are not currently allowing them to extract the maximum from the car on 1-lap pace.

A lot of development potential is left there in the car especially in the bargeboard area, which looks even more scarce than the last car. This is one area where the top teams are gaining a lot of performance from compared to the midfield. It has been said that Peter Prodromou's approach is very methodical, so it may be that the team is trying to gain an understanding of the car & the problem they are having, before chucking parts in there. This was also RBR's approach last season.

It took RBR 3/4th of last season to recover from the problems they had last year...and look at where they are now. It is possible, just need to do some solid science without all the noise around the team, which the current leadership should absorb and deflect rather than encourage.

If/when they solve the problem with the car, they should try and build up the tools for the 2021, forget about winning or podiums in the meantime, and take that pressure off the team.