Red Bull

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Discussion

c1derman

47 posts

129 months

Monday 18th March 2019
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Had pace in hand and chose to finish 20 seconds behind Bottas?
To me it seemed Lewis was in super cautious mode and gave up the win at the first corner. That and his strategy to cover Vettel meant that he raced as slow as possible for 2nd. Not the race I wanted to see but Melbourne is a tricky track to overtake at, especially in the same car.
Seems that Bottas was looking to prove a point and also benefited from the better strategy.

rich1231

17,263 posts

210 months

Monday 18th March 2019
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Had pace in hand and chose to finish 20 seconds behind Bottas?
Yes

Why chase down Bottas when he knew something was wrong with his car? Only needed to be just ahead of Max

TheDeuce

4,327 posts

16 months

Monday 18th March 2019
quotequote all
rich1231 said:
Yes

Why chase down Bottas when he knew something was wrong with his car? Only needed to be just ahead of Max
Because he's a racer and it's better to finish 5 seconds behind than 20.

He didn't know there was damage and no indication at all that he felt he had to nurse the car.

Obviously there was an issue but I think he was pushing as best he could. We will never know of course, but I believe max could have taken him.

rdjohn

4,030 posts

145 months

Monday 18th March 2019
quotequote all
Perhaps you missed Lewis’s message that he did not think his tyres were going to last.

The tactical mistake from Mercedes was covering the undercut from Vettel, but at that time, they did not understand that his mediums were not going to light-up.

Hindsight is a wonderful gift - but pretty useless.

I think that the real worry for Ferrari is that Mercedes tend always to be conservative at the beginning of the season.

Back on topic, and again with hindsight, the RB decision to drop Renault and fully engage with Honda is currently looking masterful. RIC switching to Renault, less so.

Composite Guru

2,057 posts

153 months

Monday 18th March 2019
quotequote all
rdjohn said:
Back on topic, and again with hindsight, the RB decision to drop Renault and fully engage with Honda is currently looking masterful. RIC switching to Renault, less so.
Just look at some of the comments made last year about this tie up. I read a lot of negative and not a lot of positive ones.

I'm glad its worked for them. There are a lot of people out there that didn't want it to.

This will hopefully open up a totally different season rather than falling asleep watching Merc romp away with it.

The fact that Honda has nothing to do with Merc like Renault/Nissan has means that they are 100% focused to pull out all the stops to beat Merc.



Edited by Composite Guru on Monday 18th March 10:31

patmahe

5,277 posts

154 months

Monday 18th March 2019
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
rich1231 said:
Yes

Why chase down Bottas when he knew something was wrong with his car? Only needed to be just ahead of Max
Because he's a racer and it's better to finish 5 seconds behind than 20.

He didn't know there was damage and no indication at all that he felt he had to nurse the car.

Obviously there was an issue but I think he was pushing as best he could. We will never know of course, but I believe max could have taken him.
He may be a racer, but he is also a champion, it's a long season and he knows better than most that on the days where things don't go your way you simply maximise what you can get rather than throwing aways the points for second in an effort to close a gap that was never going to close in the first place.


London424

11,656 posts

125 months

Monday 18th March 2019
quotequote all
rdjohn said:
Perhaps you missed Lewis’s message that he did not think his tyres were going to last.

The tactical mistake from Mercedes was covering the undercut from Vettel, but at that time, they did not understand that his mediums were not going to light-up.

Hindsight is a wonderful gift - but pretty useless.

I think that the real worry for Ferrari is that Mercedes tend always to be conservative at the beginning of the season.

Back on topic, and again with hindsight, the RB decision to drop Renault and fully engage with Honda is currently looking masterful. RIC switching to Renault, less so.
At the time though they had to do it really. They had no idea at that stage that Ferrari would be miles off the pace. By losing out off the start Lewis lost the ideal strategy decisions. They were never going to cover off Seb with Bottas so just tough luck for Lewis.

I think the rest of the race he was driving to a time to make the tyres last.

And for those worrying about the season and lack of overtaking etc do remember it's Oz. One of the worst tracks of the season for overtaking on track. Always has been (for as long as I can remember anyway).

TheDeuce

4,327 posts

16 months

Monday 18th March 2019
quotequote all
rdjohn said:
Perhaps you missed Lewis’s message that he did not think his tyres were going to last.

The tactical mistake from Mercedes was covering the undercut from Vettel, but at that time, they did not understand that his mediums were not going to light-up.

Hindsight is a wonderful gift - but pretty useless.

I think that the real worry for Ferrari is that Mercedes tend always to be conservative at the beginning of the season.

Back on topic, and again with hindsight, the RB decision to drop Renault and fully engage with Honda is currently looking masterful. RIC switching to Renault, less so.
That's pretty much my point. Lewis, for whatever factor was doing what he could, and max could likely have passed him. Only in this specific race, it's clear that it's advantage Mercedes in general.

As for Honda, ages ago I got involved in quite a 'debate' about their McLaren performance and the fact I believed in the fullness of time they would deliver. Their engine building heritage is world class both in and out of F1. I'm very happy to see that start to play out now. Given the improvement they saw at toro Rosso last year, and the state of the Renault relationship, it was a predictable but good decision by Red Bull.

I'm less sure about Renault's ambitions though. It's very early but so far I haven't seen any signs of them having a similarly capable PU so far. They're up there, doing well enough, just not stellar. Especially given the money they're piling in.

TheDeuce

4,327 posts

16 months

Monday 18th March 2019
quotequote all
London424 said:
And for those worrying about the season and lack of overtaking etc do remember it's Oz. One of the worst tracks of the season for overtaking on track. Always has been (for as long as I can remember anyway).
It's true. The only interesting thing about the Melbourne race is that it's the first one, so at least we get to see how the grid stacks up. It's got all the downsides of other street circuits with none of the interesting bits.

Come to think of it, perhaps that's why it's used for race 1, there is no other way of making it appeal smile

thegreenhell

6,463 posts

169 months

Monday 18th March 2019
quotequote all
Composite Guru said:
rdjohn said:
Back on topic, and again with hindsight, the RB decision to drop Renault and fully engage with Honda is currently looking masterful. RIC switching to Renault, less so.
Just look at some of the comments made last year about this tie up. I read a lot of negative and not a lot of positive ones.

I'm glad its worked for them. There are a lot of people out there that didn't want it to.

This will hopefully open up a totally different season rather than falling asleep watching Merc romp away with it.

The fact that Honda has nothing to do with Merc like Renault/Nissan has means that they are 100% focused to pull out all the stops to beat Merc.
It's a bit early to judge whether it's 'masterful' or not. If you look at laptimes relative to the works Mercedes and Renaults, then Red Bull have actually gone backwards compared to last year (using Melbourne qualifying as the yardstick). We need more than one race to judge reliability, given that the PU has to last seven races.

Norfolkit

2,263 posts

140 months

Monday 18th March 2019
quotequote all
Composite Guru said:
This will hopefully open up a totally different season rather than falling asleep watching Merc romp away with it.


Edited by Composite Guru on Monday 18th March 10:31
I think you might be jumping the gun a bit.

They (Red Bull) were still 22 seconds off the lead Merc.
2018 - they were a lot closer, 7 seconds off the leader (Vet in that instance), probably skewed a bit by the safety car though
2017 - 26 seconds off
2016 - 24 seconds off

Maybe they are a lot closer but yesterday doesn't really show that.

TheDeuce

4,327 posts

16 months

Monday 18th March 2019
quotequote all
Norfolkit said:
I think you might be jumping the gun a bit.

They (Red Bull) were still 22 seconds off the lead Merc.
2018 - they were a lot closer, 7 seconds off the leader (Vet in that instance), probably skewed a bit by the safety car though
2017 - 26 seconds off
2016 - 24 seconds off

Maybe they are a lot closer but yesterday doesn't really show that.
They were closer to Ferrari than last year though. So long as there is a battle between the top teams I'll be happy. Even if this year it's red bull battling Ferrari for 2nd, as opposed to either of them being able to battle Mercedes for first.

Of course I'd love a 3 way battle at the top, but with Mercedes on such form it's hard to believe they won't hoover up enough points in the next few races to make it very hard for Ferrari and Red bull to challenge them. Especially big they're caught up having their own fights.


HustleRussell

17,335 posts

110 months

Monday 18th March 2019
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
rdjohn said:
TheDeuce said:
rich1231 said:
Why chase down Bottas when he knew something was wrong with his car? Only needed to be just ahead of Max
Because he's a racer and it's better to finish 5 seconds behind than 20.

He didn't know there was damage and no indication at all that he felt he had to nurse the car.

Obviously there was an issue but I think he was pushing as best he could. We will never know of course, but I believe max could have taken him.
Perhaps you missed Lewis’s message that he did not think his tyres were going to last.

The tactical mistake from Mercedes was covering the undercut from Vettel, but at that time, they did not understand that his mediums were not going to light-up.

Hindsight is a wonderful gift - but pretty useless.

I think that the real worry for Ferrari is that Mercedes tend always to be conservative at the beginning of the season.

Back on topic, and again with hindsight, the RB decision to drop Renault and fully engage with Honda is currently looking masterful. RIC switching to Renault, less so.
That's pretty much my point. Lewis, for whatever factor was doing what he could, and max could likely have passed him. Only in this specific race, it's clear that it's advantage Mercedes in general.

As for Honda, ages ago I got involved in quite a 'debate' about their McLaren performance and the fact I believed in the fullness of time they would deliver. Their engine building heritage is world class both in and out of F1. I'm very happy to see that start to play out now. Given the improvement they saw at toro Rosso last year, and the state of the Renault relationship, it was a predictable but good decision by Red Bull.

I'm less sure about Renault's ambitions though. It's very early but so far I haven't seen any signs of them having a similarly capable PU so far. They're up there, doing well enough, just not stellar. Especially given the money they're piling in.
After the race, Lewis said he had Verstappen covered

Verstappen said that he wouldn't have got past Lewis even if it wasn't for his mistake at T1

Bottas, Hamilton, Verstappen and Leclerc all pushed for fastest lap at the end;

Bottas: 1:25.6
Hamilton +0.477
Verstappen + 0.676
Leclerc + 1.346

Hamilton's tyres were 10 laps older than Verstappen's and Leclerc was the only one on the hard tyre

Norfolkit

2,263 posts

140 months

Monday 18th March 2019
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Norfolkit said:
I think you might be jumping the gun a bit.

They (Red Bull) were still 22 seconds off the lead Merc.
2018 - they were a lot closer, 7 seconds off the leader (Vet in that instance), probably skewed a bit by the safety car though
2017 - 26 seconds off
2016 - 24 seconds off

Maybe they are a lot closer but yesterday doesn't really show that.
They were closer to Ferrari than last year though. So long as there is a battle between the top teams I'll be happy. Even if this year it's red bull battling Ferrari for 2nd, as opposed to either of them being able to battle Mercedes for first.

Of course I'd love a 3 way battle at the top, but with Mercedes on such form it's hard to believe they won't hoover up enough points in the next few races to make it very hard for Ferrari and Red bull to challenge them. Especially big they're caught up having their own fights.
I'd still keep the champagne on ice a while longer, Australia is a bit of an oddball race. Maybe they are neck and neck with Ferrari, maybe Bottas just had one of those races and it's 3 teams neck and neck, be a few more races yet before we know the true pecking order.


LaurasOtherHalf

16,260 posts

146 months

Monday 18th March 2019
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Norfolkit said:
I think you might be jumping the gun a bit.

They (Red Bull) were still 22 seconds off the lead Merc.
2018 - they were a lot closer, 7 seconds off the leader (Vet in that instance), probably skewed a bit by the safety car though
2017 - 26 seconds off
2016 - 24 seconds off

Maybe they are a lot closer but yesterday doesn't really show that.
They were closer to Ferrari than last year though....
confused That says more about Ferrari’s lack of pace than Red Bull’s inherent speed.

Who cares how close you are to Ferrari when Ferrari are miles off the pace? And 7/10th a lap is miles off the pace!

Every time VER got to DRS within HAM, HAM just put on another 4/10ths on him. In a damaged car. On old tyres.

I’m super chuffed for Red Bull and Honda that it’s going way better but let’s not dip into hyperbole, there is nothing to show they were anywhere close to Mercedes in AUS.

Bahrain could be a different story...maybe.

thegreenhell

6,463 posts

169 months

Monday 18th March 2019
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
They were closer to Ferrari than last year though.
Compared to qualifying 2018, their deficit to Mercedes increased, their deficit to Ferrari increased, and Renault's deficit to Red Bull decreased. All other things being equal, none of these things are indicative of the Honda being better than what they had last year.

HustleRussell

17,335 posts

110 months

Monday 18th March 2019
quotequote all
Norfolkit said:
I think you might be jumping the gun a bit.

They (Red Bull) were still 22 seconds off the lead Merc.
2018 - they were a lot closer, 7 seconds off the leader (Vet in that instance), probably skewed a bit by the safety car though
2017 - 26 seconds off
2016 - 24 seconds off

Maybe they are a lot closer but yesterday doesn't really show that.
thegreenhell said:
Compared to qualifying 2018, their deficit to Mercedes increased, their deficit to Ferrari increased, and Renault's deficit to Red Bull decreased. All other things being equal, none of these things are indicative of the Honda being better than what they had last year.
It is a fool's errand to use qualifying times or race times as a metric to compare power units for obvious reasons.

There is a hint that Red Bull's PU situation with Honda is an improvement on their situation with Renault. That is Verstappen's DRS pass on Vettel between turn 2 and 3, taking track position before the braking zone. I didn't see a single other overtake done that way. Verstappen had a tyre and pace offset to Vettel but it was only six tenths per lap or so.

That of course only gives us a clue as to the picture on that lap at that circuit versus Ferrari. And of course it is suspected that Ferrari had their engines turned down to manage temperatures.

TheDeuce

4,327 posts

16 months

Monday 18th March 2019
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
It is a fool's errand to use qualifying times or race times as a metric to compare power units for obvious reasons.

There is a hint that Red Bull's PU situation with Honda is an improvement on their situation with Renault. That is Verstappen's DRS pass on Vettel between turn 2 and 3, taking track position before the braking zone. I didn't see a single other overtake done that way. Verstappen had a tyre and pace offset to Vettel but it was only six tenths per lap or so.

That of course only gives us a clue as to the picture on that lap at that circuit versus Ferrari. And of course it is suspected that Ferrari had their engines turned down to manage temperatures.
A small increase in performance, but then the performance wasn't that bad last year, a small improvement was all they needed to become far more competitive.

For me the biggest improvement is reliability, compared to last year's setup.

FourWheelDrift

79,101 posts

234 months

Monday 18th March 2019
quotequote all
Vettel's best lap of the race was a 1m27.954 on lap 16, that's 1.7s slower than Verstappen and 2.4s slower than Bottas best laps on worn tyres both on lap 57.

Laptime very consistent in the 1m28s until the end - https://results.motorsportstats.com/results/2019-a...

Gasly and Verstappen fastest through the top speed trap - https://results.motorsportstats.com/results/2019-a...

Vettel and Leclerc only 17th and 19th.

HustleRussell

17,335 posts

110 months

Monday 18th March 2019
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
it is suspected that Ferrari had their engines turned down to manage temperatures.