Group B Rally

Author
Discussion

towser

Original Poster:

444 posts

147 months

Sunday 2nd December
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Seems like a lifetime ago - In fact it was - since group B was the peak of motorsport (IMHO). Anyway stumbled across a rather nice and renetly posted Group B YouTube video - some amazing footage, dunno who had more balls the drivers or the spectators!

https://youtu.be/zpzOf4-6GoE

chunder27

1,360 posts

144 months

Sunday 2nd December
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There are countless videos like this on YT, from all sorts of eras.

Group B was amazing yes, but it outgrew the sport, the cars were silly,a bit unsafe some of them, but the crowds and marshalling was the main issue.

We now have the other way in the UK, its tough for new fans in certain areas to watch rallying without being in pens, and thats tough.

But it is largely because of a few silly people and a lot of bad luck.

Oh, and insurance companies!!

Pericoloso

36,904 posts

99 months

Sunday 2nd December
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Group B still exists ,if you look in the right places.



July this year ,not a competitive timed event but driven with gusto and sometimes by the original drivers.

Gav147

915 posts

97 months

Sunday 2nd December
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Antti who made that video has been making them for many years, there are some superb videos on YouTube by him aswell as that one, I believe he had issues with YouTube and copyright and lost a lot of his content/channel? if you search his name they are still floating about uploaded by others, a lot of them worth a watch

chunder27

1,360 posts

144 months

Monday 3rd December
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True enough Gav, there are tons of people who upload stuff that was on DVD's on ebay years ago, but the sales have stopped a bit now. Hours of pure sound footage.

A lot of Quattro's running in GpB demo's are replicas, there are very few original cars
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bloomen

1,844 posts

95 months

Tuesday 4th December
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chunder27 said:
but the crowds and marshalling was the main issue.
If I were a driver in that period I would've thrown it in. It was beyond insanity and it's amazing there weren't many, many more massacres.

120 mph through a wall of people for a second would give me nightmares, let alone several days of it.

chunder27

1,360 posts

144 months

Tuesday 4th December
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Fair enough, but some of the drivers seemed to ignore it and drive their lines still, hoping they would move, the pressure on them was immense, a guy like Fiorio would not accept that excuse, he was a ruthless man.

andy97

3,438 posts

158 months

Tuesday 4th December
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chunder27 said:
.

A lot of Quattro's running in GpB demo's are replicas, there are very few original cars
Does that really matter? Lots of Lotus Cortina's weren't built as such, ditto Escort RS 1800s, Litweight E-Types etc, and then there are the "continuation cars". Doesn't really ruin the spectacle as long as we a understand what we are looking at. Its only a problem if someone is trying to pass it off as an original car.

bloomen

1,844 posts

95 months

Tuesday 4th December
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andy97 said:
Does that really matter? Lots of Lotus Cortina's weren't built as such, ditto Escort RS 1800s, Litweight E-Types etc, and then there are the "continuation cars". Doesn't really ruin the spectacle as long as we a understand what we are looking at. Its only a problem if someone is trying to pass it off as an original car.
In the Quattro case it's a bit different. You can build a near exact Escort or Cortina easily enough.

Many S1 recreations won't share any similarity other than the silhouette, and that's often not right either as you need to murder an Audi 80 coupe to get the right rake of the screen.

I wouldn't kick one out the garage all the same.

chunder27

1,360 posts

144 months

Tuesday 4th December
quotequote all
Exactly, some of them are quite cheap and nasty with nothing like as much power and different 4wd systems.

A few are even set up not to be original, an Austrian guy basically drifts his everywhere, looks like an A2 but is driven idiotically everywhere it goes.

Yet some are very near to exact copies.

You do not get the same with things like 037's Delta's, RS200's. MOst 205's you see are copies or based on very low tuned base models, you can tell by the sound.

And the vast majority of Renault 5 Maxi's are not at all, only very few of those are around.

andy97

3,438 posts

158 months

Tuesday 4th December
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bloomen said:
In the Quattro case it's a bit different. You can build a near exact Escort or Cortina easily enough.

Many S1 recreations won't share any similarity other than the silhouette, and that's often not right either as you need to murder an Audi 80 coupe to get the right rake of the screen.

I wouldn't kick one out the garage all the same.
All true, and the engine almost certainly won't have the proper aluminium block either, but as long as they are properly log booked rally cars, and not just "lookey likeys" then that's fine for me.

Must admit, I don't understand the comment on Chunder's post about the different 4WD system. The only possible difference is that they may have a Torsen central diff from a later road car. Big deal. The architecture is still the same with an in line engine and transaxle at the front and a prop shaft through to the rear axle.

chunder27

1,360 posts

144 months

Tuesday 4th December
quotequote all
Its not really a big deal no, but they dont handle the same really.

Sadly I am a bit of a purist when it comes to GpB cars, having seen them for real in the day, I would not want to queue up and wait for ages to se one and find it was a cheap replica.

Bloke was using a 6R4 at Cadwell the other week with a Jag V6 in it, I mean cmon!

Rude-boy

22,005 posts

169 months

Tuesday 4th December
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chunder27 said:
Bloke was using a 6R4 at Cadwell the other week with a Jag V6 in it, I mean cmon!
Was it from a 220? scratchchin

andy97

3,438 posts

158 months

Wednesday 5th December
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chunder27 said:
Its not really a big deal no, but they dont handle the same really.

Sadly I am a bit of a purist when it comes to GpB cars, having seen them for real in the day, I would not want to queue up and wait for ages to se one and find it was a cheap replica.

Bloke was using a 6R4 at Cadwell the other week with a Jag V6 in it, I mean cmon!
I saw them for real, too. And own an Ur quattro road car. But i dont think there is any such thing as a cheap replica.

As for the 6R4, was it an original chassis? I think one or two people have put Jag engines or Millington 4 pots in to preserve their original engines. Not many of those were built, they are made of unobtanium and difficult to keep running. I would rather see a 6R4 running with a jag engine than not running at all.

chunder27

1,360 posts

144 months

Wednesday 5th December
quotequote all
Well cheap compared to running the respective motor that would have been running at the time. But for me, nah. bit like dressing up a fwd Celica in Castrol colours and entering a retro rally event as GT4.

Sorry, I would rather see nothing than a Jag engined 6R4, there are plenty of people running them still in rallying and rallycross, and parts are still available from numerous people.

In fact at the same event was an original of the 200 cars built, still same colours and he was running that just fine.


Krikkit

13,516 posts

117 months

Wednesday 5th December
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And what about the "proper" Group B cars which run updated management etc? They're nowhere near original either.

Personally I'd rather see a decent copy run balls-out than never see one again - almost no-one with a matching numbers original group B car would run it at anything other than huge events. The replicas get thrashed and give at least an idea of what they were like originally.

chunder27

1,360 posts

144 months

Wednesday 5th December
quotequote all
Lol, I suppose for younger people who have never seen them before replica's are fine.

I was lucky I got a stay of execution watching GpB cars in rallycross until 1993, so I had my fill and watched them being thrashed for another 6 years.

It's the same with any historic type car, there are better ways of running them, better tyres etc. Endless arguments on forums all over the place about this and also in rulebooks. Goodwood revival is awash with it most years!

But a proper GpB car is just that, everything else is just fake.

I love old war planes, and I know for a fact that although there are numerous 109's and 190's flying around, most of them are fake. Most it not all are replica's and for some that's fine, but not me sorry.

Jerry Can

2,056 posts

159 months

Thursday 6th December
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https://youtu.be/99qHoM-ef10

this may have been posted somewhere else, but seems appropriate here.


A group B 6r4 being driven by WRC startCraig Breen in Ireland at the weekend. Should satisfy all tastes.

GravelBen

13,437 posts

166 months

Friday 7th December
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Krikkit said:
Personally I'd rather see a decent copy run balls-out than never see one again - almost no-one with a matching numbers original group B car would run it at anything other than huge events. The replicas get thrashed and give at least an idea of what they were like originally.
+1

A replica can be just as spectacular, if not more so due to the driver not having to protective of something so valuable. Half of them were kindof hacked-together hybrids of different parts originally anyway weren't they? I'll happily watch them either way!

Edited by GravelBen on Friday 7th December 05:41

coppice

4,868 posts

80 months

Friday 7th December
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chunder27 said:
Lol, I suppose for younger people who have never seen them before replica's are fine.

I was lucky I got a stay of execution watching GpB cars in rallycross until 1993, so I had my fill and watched them being thrashed for another 6 years.

It's the same with any historic type car, there are better ways of running them, better tyres etc. Endless arguments on forums all over the place about this and also in rulebooks. Goodwood revival is awash with it most years!

But a proper GpB car is just that, everything else is just fake.

I love old war planes, and I know for a fact that although there are numerous 109's and 190's flying around, most of them are fake. Most it not all are replica's and for some that's fine, but not me sorry.
I watched the originals in period too and have very fond memories. You cannot replicate the past - the car's the easy bit compared to your younger self - but I don;t knock replicas. Nobody with an original will run it at ten tenths - these things are now older than D Type Jaguars were when GP B was happening .

Fake ? Yes, of course there is some sleight of hand at Goodwood and elsewhere - but I go to watch cars racing , not anorak over originality .Most genuine old racers end up never being seen except at Pebble Beach etc and to me there is nothing sadder than seeing some GTO or Alfa 33 - cars which once were dirty and battered as they raced at the Targa Florio or Le Mans - now spotless , clinically clean and treated as if they were Monets .