"Sebastian Vettel a 'massively overrated one-trick pony"

"Sebastian Vettel a 'massively overrated one-trick pony"

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Discussion

swisstoni

7,371 posts

217 months

Tuesday 29th January
quotequote all
You don’t think Schumacher might have had something to say about having hakinnen on the other side of the garage?

HighwayStar

Original Poster:

2,139 posts

82 months

Wednesday 30th January
quotequote all
sparta6 said:
entropy said:
As much as a fan and huge respect for Michael's talent and success he never had an equal as teammate so is it surprising he was much more "on it" compared to Lewis battling Nico for a number of years, though Michael would still be more on it than Lewis as Michael was much more humble and less distractions.
Mika Hakinnen was the only other driver to have similar speed to Michael, but his loyalty to Ron and his magnificent McLaren prevented him from being Schumacher's teammate. Probably to Mika's advantage as the Ferrari was dog rough for a while. It would have been great to watch them a teammates though !
Rubbish... That's not how Ferrari do things and you know it. There would never have been and offer from Ferrari to pair him with Michael and Hakinnen had no interest in going to Ferrari. There has never even any speculation... I'd agree it would've been good to see another top line driver in the same team, free to race Michael and McLaren and Mercedes have done but it's just not the Ferrari way.

thegreenhell

5,008 posts

157 months

Wednesday 30th January
quotequote all
It would have been more likely to find Michael at McLaren. Ron has since said that he was trying to sign him before he opted to go to Ferrari. I assume that would have paired him with Hakkinen, since he was already established in the team then, and McLaren have never been shy of pairing two top drivers together.

sparta6

1,126 posts

38 months

Wednesday 30th January
quotequote all
HighwayStar said:
sparta6 said:
entropy said:
As much as a fan and huge respect for Michael's talent and success he never had an equal as teammate so is it surprising he was much more "on it" compared to Lewis battling Nico for a number of years, though Michael would still be more on it than Lewis as Michael was much more humble and less distractions.
Mika Hakinnen was the only other driver to have similar speed to Michael, but his loyalty to Ron and his magnificent McLaren prevented him from being Schumacher's teammate. Probably to Mika's advantage as the Ferrari was dog rough for a while. It would have been great to watch them a teammates though !
Rubbish... That's not how Ferrari do things and you know it. There would never have been and offer from Ferrari to pair him with Michael and Hakinnen had no interest in going to Ferrari. There has never even any speculation... I'd agree it would've been good to see another top line driver in the same team, free to race Michael and McLaren and Mercedes have done but it's just not the Ferrari way.
Interesting...are you suggesting that Alesi and Berger did not have similar speed ?

HighwayStar

Original Poster:

2,139 posts

82 months

Wednesday 30th January
quotequote all
sparta6 said:
HighwayStar said:
sparta6 said:
entropy said:
As much as a fan and huge respect for Michael's talent and success he never had an equal as teammate so is it surprising he was much more "on it" compared to Lewis battling Nico for a number of years, though Michael would still be more on it than Lewis as Michael was much more humble and less distractions.
Mika Hakinnen was the only other driver to have similar speed to Michael, but his loyalty to Ron and his magnificent McLaren prevented him from being Schumacher's teammate. Probably to Mika's advantage as the Ferrari was dog rough for a while. It would have been great to watch them a teammates though !
Rubbish... That's not how Ferrari do things and you know it. There would never have been and offer from Ferrari to pair him with Michael and Hakinnen had no interest in going to Ferrari. There has never even any speculation... I'd agree it would've been good to see another top line driver in the same team, free to race Michael and McLaren and Mercedes have done but it's just not the Ferrari way.
Interesting...are you suggesting that Alesi and Berger did not have similar speed ?
Did I say that, did I mention Jean and Gerhard?
Seriously!!! Top line drivers? How many WDCs do they have between them... oh wait....
I thought we were talking drivers on the level of Hakinnen and Schumacher duking it out for the title.
We've seen plenty of team mates scrapping lower down the grid. Max and DRic, Ocon and Perez.


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sparta6

1,126 posts

38 months

Wednesday 30th January
quotequote all
HighwayStar said:
sparta6 said:
HighwayStar said:
sparta6 said:
entropy said:
As much as a fan and huge respect for Michael's talent and success he never had an equal as teammate so is it surprising he was much more "on it" compared to Lewis battling Nico for a number of years, though Michael would still be more on it than Lewis as Michael was much more humble and less distractions.
Mika Hakinnen was the only other driver to have similar speed to Michael, but his loyalty to Ron and his magnificent McLaren prevented him from being Schumacher's teammate. Probably to Mika's advantage as the Ferrari was dog rough for a while. It would have been great to watch them a teammates though !
Rubbish... That's not how Ferrari do things and you know it. There would never have been and offer from Ferrari to pair him with Michael and Hakinnen had no interest in going to Ferrari. There has never even any speculation... I'd agree it would've been good to see another top line driver in the same team, free to race Michael and McLaren and Mercedes have done but it's just not the Ferrari way.
Interesting...are you suggesting that Alesi and Berger did not have similar speed ?
Did I say that, did I mention Jean and Gerhard?
Seriously!!! Top line drivers? How many WDCs do they have between them... oh wait....
I thought we were talking drivers on the level of Hakinnen and Schumacher duking it out for the title.
We've seen plenty of team mates scrapping lower down the grid. Max and DRic, Ocon and Perez.
"That's not how Ferrari do things" you said. Pairing drivers with comparable speed ?

Both Alesi and Berger were fast, albeit with different approaches.
The Ferrari was a bit of an unreliable dog and they only managed a diminutive amount of race wins.

A worthwhile read

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article...



spunkytherabbit

281 posts

118 months

Wednesday 30th January
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
Irvine didn't try in his Ferrari days. He wandered around, doing just enough. He was embarrassing. If he had put as much effort into his driving as he does to bad-mouthing every other driver, except Schumacher of course, then he'd have knocked half a second of his lap times. That said, it didn't do to get near Schumacher's times.
I think that's a spot on assessment of Irvine. Ron Dennis had the measure of him when Irvine approached him to go to Mclaren to try and replace Coulthard. Ron told him he was no better than Coulthard and it wasn't worth his trouble to do so and Irvine then went for broke rubbishing and bad mouthing Coulthard every chance he had. Indeed, embarrassing himself in the process. The net result, if I remember correctly, being increasing mistakes and poor performances as his concentration on his real job waned and he spent all his time talking to the press pushing his vendetta.

As such, I think Irvine's comments about Seb deserve all they get. The casual attention of F1 fans waiting for nothing more than the season to start.

HighwayStar

Original Poster:

2,139 posts

82 months

Wednesday 30th January
quotequote all
sparta6 said:
HighwayStar said:
sparta6 said:
HighwayStar said:
sparta6 said:
entropy said:
As much as a fan and huge respect for Michael's talent and success he never had an equal as teammate so is it surprising he was much more "on it" compared to Lewis battling Nico for a number of years, though Michael would still be more on it than Lewis as Michael was much more humble and less distractions.
Mika Hakinnen was the only other driver to have similar speed to Michael, but his loyalty to Ron and his magnificent McLaren prevented him from being Schumacher's teammate. Probably to Mika's advantage as the Ferrari was dog rough for a while. It would have been great to watch them a teammates though !
Rubbish... That's not how Ferrari do things and you know it. There would never have been and offer from Ferrari to pair him with Michael and Hakinnen had no interest in going to Ferrari. There has never even any speculation... I'd agree it would've been good to see another top line driver in the same team, free to race Michael and McLaren and Mercedes have done but it's just not the Ferrari way.
Interesting...are you suggesting that Alesi and Berger did not have similar speed ?
Did I say that, did I mention Jean and Gerhard?
Seriously!!! Top line drivers? How many WDCs do they have between them... oh wait....
I thought we were talking drivers on the level of Hakinnen and Schumacher duking it out for the title.
We've seen plenty of team mates scrapping lower down the grid. Max and DRic, Ocon and Perez.
"That's not how Ferrari do things" you said. Pairing drivers with comparable speed ?

Both Alesi and Berger were fast, albeit with different approaches.
The Ferrari was a bit of an unreliable dog and they only managed a diminutive amount of race wins.

A worthwhile read

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article...
Ok, you said you’d liked to have seen Hakinnen and Schumacher at Ferrari. They like their number 1 plus a wingman. Hakinnen wouldn’t have accepted that.
Neither Alesi or Berger were getting near a title in a Ferrari at that time.

sparta6

1,126 posts

38 months

Thursday 31st January
quotequote all
HighwayStar said:
sparta6 said:
HighwayStar said:
sparta6 said:
HighwayStar said:
sparta6 said:
entropy said:
As much as a fan and huge respect for Michael's talent and success he never had an equal as teammate so is it surprising he was much more "on it" compared to Lewis battling Nico for a number of years, though Michael would still be more on it than Lewis as Michael was much more humble and less distractions.
Mika Hakinnen was the only other driver to have similar speed to Michael, but his loyalty to Ron and his magnificent McLaren prevented him from being Schumacher's teammate. Probably to Mika's advantage as the Ferrari was dog rough for a while. It would have been great to watch them a teammates though !
Rubbish... That's not how Ferrari do things and you know it. There would never have been and offer from Ferrari to pair him with Michael and Hakinnen had no interest in going to Ferrari. There has never even any speculation... I'd agree it would've been good to see another top line driver in the same team, free to race Michael and McLaren and Mercedes have done but it's just not the Ferrari way.
Interesting...are you suggesting that Alesi and Berger did not have similar speed ?
Did I say that, did I mention Jean and Gerhard?
Seriously!!! Top line drivers? How many WDCs do they have between them... oh wait....
I thought we were talking drivers on the level of Hakinnen and Schumacher duking it out for the title.
We've seen plenty of team mates scrapping lower down the grid. Max and DRic, Ocon and Perez.
"That's not how Ferrari do things" you said. Pairing drivers with comparable speed ?

Both Alesi and Berger were fast, albeit with different approaches.
The Ferrari was a bit of an unreliable dog and they only managed a diminutive amount of race wins.

A worthwhile read

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article...
Ok, you said you’d liked to have seen Hakinnen and Schumacher at Ferrari. They like their number 1 plus a wingman. Hakinnen wouldn’t have accepted that.
Neither Alesi or Berger were getting near a title in a Ferrari at that time.
As the hottest driver of the period, Ferrari quite rightly invested major ££££ for Michael's services - and to try and win the WDC.
That does not automatically mean Ferrari put all their eggs in one basket - and without seeing the contract it's pure speculation.
Even Ross Brawn stated they wanted Irvine to win the WDC when Schumacher was out with a broken leg.

Ferrari has always been gunning for wins and the coveted WDC, with all of its drivers. If that car had been upto the job Alesi or Berger would have bagged a WDC.



HighwayStar

Original Poster:

2,139 posts

82 months

Thursday 31st January
quotequote all
sparta6 said:
HighwayStar said:
sparta6 said:
HighwayStar said:
sparta6 said:
HighwayStar said:
sparta6 said:
entropy said:
As much as a fan and huge respect for Michael's talent and success he never had an equal as teammate so is it surprising he was much more "on it" compared to Lewis battling Nico for a number of years, though Michael would still be more on it than Lewis as Michael was much more humble and less distractions.
Mika Hakinnen was the only other driver to have similar speed to Michael, but his loyalty to Ron and his magnificent McLaren prevented him from being Schumacher's teammate. Probably to Mika's advantage as the Ferrari was dog rough for a while. It would have been great to watch them a teammates though !
Rubbish... That's not how Ferrari do things and you know it. There would never have been and offer from Ferrari to pair him with Michael and Hakinnen had no interest in going to Ferrari. There has never even any speculation... I'd agree it would've been good to see another top line driver in the same team, free to race Michael and McLaren and Mercedes have done but it's just not the Ferrari way.
Interesting...are you suggesting that Alesi and Berger did not have similar speed ?
Did I say that, did I mention Jean and Gerhard?
Seriously!!! Top line drivers? How many WDCs do they have between them... oh wait....
I thought we were talking drivers on the level of Hakinnen and Schumacher duking it out for the title.
We've seen plenty of team mates scrapping lower down the grid. Max and DRic, Ocon and Perez.
"That's not how Ferrari do things" you said. Pairing drivers with comparable speed ?

Both Alesi and Berger were fast, albeit with different approaches.
The Ferrari was a bit of an unreliable dog and they only managed a diminutive amount of race wins.

A worthwhile read

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article...
Ok, you said you’d liked to have seen Hakinnen and Schumacher at Ferrari. They like their number 1 plus a wingman. Hakinnen wouldn’t have accepted that.
Neither Alesi or Berger were getting near a title in a Ferrari at that time.
As the hottest driver of the period, Ferrari quite rightly invested major ££££ for Michael's services - and to try and win the WDC.
That does not automatically mean Ferrari put all their eggs in one basket - and without seeing the contract it's pure speculation.
Even Ross Brawn stated they wanted Irvine to win the WDC when Schumacher was out with a broken leg.

Ferrari has always been gunning for wins and the coveted WDC, with all of its drivers. If that car had been upto the job Alesi or Berger would have bagged a WDC.
.... but that is exactly what Ferrari did... I remember races early in the season, where maths didn't come into it, team mates being asked to pull over and let Michael through. There was a press conference, Barrichello had re-signed to Ferrari. He was asked if he was a number 2 or equal status to Schumi... He claimed they had equal status. When questioned further he again stressed they were equal, Michael was 1 and he was 1B.
Austria 02, 6 races in to a 17 race season. Rubens got the call to step aside. He didn't. Then he got the think about your contract. He moved over.
1B = all their eggs in one basket.
With Michael out of commission and Eddie in with a shot at the WDC, why wouldn't Ross want Irvine to win it?

swisstoni

7,371 posts

217 months

Thursday 31st January
quotequote all
Just to veer back on topic for a second, I think Vettel is bloody quick despite being flattered by his favoured status in RB and Ferrari.

Unusually Ferrari may not be 100% behind him this year and we’ll see his true performance against a rated rookie.

My guess is that Vettel won’t be troubled too much.

geeks

4,046 posts

77 months

Thursday 31st January
quotequote all
swisstoni said:
My guess is that Vettel won’t be troubled too much.
I just can't agree with this! Sorry!

Leclerc is the real deal make no mistake about this. Vettel has form for being usurped by a faster or more capable team mate. He has a talent for qualy and finding an extra something on one lap pace but Leclerc can do that and also manage a race and be quick all at the same time, just look at his GP2 runs to see what I am getting at here. I really think the "rookie" will make Vettel look a bit st.

Thats not to say Vettel is st, far from it, you don't win 4 on the bounce without talent even in the faster car, I have really warmed to him since he joined Ferrari and what I am actually hoping is that Leclerc raises Vettels game, Kimi is great I enjoy his personality but he has hardly challenged Vettel to do better which I was gutted about if not, not surprise IYSWIM

sparta6

1,126 posts

38 months

Thursday 31st January
quotequote all
HighwayStar said:
There was a press conference, Barrichello had re-signed to Ferrari. He was asked if he was a number 2 or equal status to Schumi... He claimed they had equal status. When questioned further he again stressed they were equal, Michael was 1 and he was 1B.
Every teammate of Schumacher I've ever heard has conceded MS was faster in equal cars.

As a team you want both cars to finish - or you risk accidents trying to hold up a charging Michael Schumacher.

This is where I applaud Red Bull, allowing their drivers to really duke it out.
Brave but good for the sport.





swisstoni

7,371 posts

217 months

Thursday 31st January
quotequote all
geeks said:
swisstoni said:
My guess is that Vettel won’t be troubled too much.
I just can't agree with this! Sorry!
Don’t apologise - i realise it may be totally wrong. Just a hunch of mine. It will be fascinating to watch either way.

thegreenhell

5,008 posts

157 months

Thursday 31st January
quotequote all
HighwayStar said:
With Michael out of commission and Eddie in with a shot at the WDC, why wouldn't Ross want Irvine to win it?
It's a shame they couldn't always give him 4 wheels on his wagon.

geeks

4,046 posts

77 months

Friday 1st February
quotequote all
swisstoni said:
geeks said:
swisstoni said:
My guess is that Vettel won’t be troubled too much.
I just can't agree with this! Sorry!
Don’t apologise - i realise it may be totally wrong. Just a hunch of mine. It will be fascinating to watch either way.
Completely! I think it is going to re-energise Ferrari, something has to!

TobyTR

275 posts

84 months

Monday 4th February
quotequote all
spunkytherabbit said:
Derek Smith said:
Irvine didn't try in his Ferrari days. He wandered around, doing just enough. He was embarrassing. If he had put as much effort into his driving as he does to bad-mouthing every other driver, except Schumacher of course, then he'd have knocked half a second of his lap times. That said, it didn't do to get near Schumacher's times.
I think that's a spot on assessment of Irvine. Ron Dennis had the measure of him when Irvine approached him to go to Mclaren to try and replace Coulthard. Ron told him he was no better than Coulthard and it wasn't worth his trouble to do so and Irvine then went for broke rubbishing and bad mouthing Coulthard every chance he had. Indeed, embarrassing himself in the process. The net result, if I remember correctly, being increasing mistakes and poor performances as his concentration on his real job waned and he spent all his time talking to the press pushing his vendetta.

As such, I think Irvine's comments about Seb deserve all they get. The casual attention of F1 fans waiting for nothing more than the season to start.
Ron entered discussions with Eddie to replace Coulthard in the latter part of 1999, as Coulthard wasn't living up to expectations. Irvine came very close to winning the '99 WDC, he had his chance and ran a great driver very close, and helped Ferrari win the Constructor's title that year.

Hakkinen was for sure a great driver, and to finish within two points of him is decent - Coulthard never came that close to a WDC and McLaren had the faster cars in '97, '98 and '99.

Irvine isn't in the same league as Hakkinen or M.Schumacher, but he was a quality F1 driver and scored a couple of podiums for Jaguar - respect.

I can't help but like him - he's a multiple F1 race winner, drove some awesome V10 F1 cars to their limits in one of the greatest eras of the sport, made a tonne of money and as a result carries his wallet in a private jet and has a mighty car collection. Fair play to him.

I enjoyed this insight from Irvine in that article:

"I remember at the Japanese Grand Prix, Michael was fastest and I was second fastest, in my first grand prix into the pit lane. Senna was only fourth of fifth. Michael practiced the pit entry and Senna didn't, so there's things that he missed.

"Technically, he (Michael) wasn't that great but his actual talent with his feet, arms, feel and anticipation were second to none. There were corners I couldn't do what he was doing. Then he would just copy me in the corners I was quicker than him. I remember Silverstone I was much faster at the last corner and he couldn't figure out what I was doing. He'd always go through the telemetry and figured it out, then he'd just copy me. So that was the problem for me, he just had an amazing talent which you couldn't copy."

There are 20 episodes of "a drink with Eddie Irvine" on YouTube; in one episode he talks on how he altered his driving style to achieve 3rd place for Jaguar at Monza, among other fascinating anecdotes.

Galileo

3,095 posts

156 months

Thursday 7th February
quotequote all
Irvine has always been and probably always will be a weapons grade bell-end, therefore his opinions should be instantly dismissed as self advertising bullst.

spunkytherabbit

281 posts

118 months

Thursday 7th February
quotequote all
Galileo said:
Irvine has always been and probably always will be a weapons grade bell-end
I have just laughed out loud on a conference call reading this!!!!!

DS240

2,677 posts

156 months

Friday 8th February
quotequote all
I'll try to cover my views on the different points raised....

Vettel -
I do not believe is massively over rated. I don't think you can fluke or get lucky on 4 world titles. The last 3 years have been massively disappointing though, I would say as a Ferrari fan. he is fast, works well with the team, but is not delivering the consistency.

Berger / Alesi -
Both were good, solid drivers. I think Ferrari hoped Berger was the all round reliable one and Alesi was going to be the superstar. Ultimately I don't think either were your world title material. Plus they never really got the car from Ferrari to go for it. My love of F1 started in 93 and followed Ferrari from that time.

Schumacher -
The best. Too easy to dismiss the success over the infamous incidents. He was all round fast, consistent, clever, brutal, driven and changed the game with work ethic and preparation.

Probably best to discuss how I see drivers on the grid now before going onto Irvine. They are all top of their game, but like any sport there are those who sit at the top and those who sit at the bottom. We aren't talking about a huge degree of skill difference, but there are those who operate at the top, those in the middle who sometimes reach the top and then those who make up the bottom level. Split into Cat A, B and C.

Irvine -
For example, i'd say he was a Cat B. And I reckon he'd agree with that also. He openly said he couldn't fight Michael and never pretended he was there to win the title from him. He performed the solid team mate role and he nearly got his WDC reward when Michael broke his leg. Unlike Massa or Barrichello, each Cat B also, they would come out every year and say this was their year to beat Michael and then as the year wore on the excuses came out. They had their good days, but they could not fight all the time with Cat A.

Webber, Coulthard, Raikkonen, Bottas, Ricciardo all Cat B.