"Sebastian Vettel a 'massively overrated one-trick pony"

"Sebastian Vettel a 'massively overrated one-trick pony"

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sparta6

1,476 posts

50 months

Sunday 10th February 2019
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DS240 said:
I'll try to cover my views on the different points raised....

Vettel -
I do not believe is massively over rated. I don't think you can fluke or get lucky on 4 world titles. The last 3 years have been massively disappointing though, I would say as a Ferrari fan. he is fast, works well with the team, but is not delivering the consistency.

Berger / Alesi -
Both were good, solid drivers. I think Ferrari hoped Berger was the all round reliable one and Alesi was going to be the superstar. Ultimately I don't think either were your world title material. Plus they never really got the car from Ferrari to go for it. My love of F1 started in 93 and followed Ferrari from that time.

Schumacher -
The best. Too easy to dismiss the success over the infamous incidents. He was all round fast, consistent, clever, brutal, driven and changed the game with work ethic and preparation.

Probably best to discuss how I see drivers on the grid now before going onto Irvine. They are all top of their game, but like any sport there are those who sit at the top and those who sit at the bottom. We aren't talking about a huge degree of skill difference, but there are those who operate at the top, those in the middle who sometimes reach the top and then those who make up the bottom level. Split into Cat A, B and C.

Irvine -
For example, i'd say he was a Cat B. And I reckon he'd agree with that also. He openly said he couldn't fight Michael and never pretended he was there to win the title from him. He performed the solid team mate role and he nearly got his WDC reward when Michael broke his leg. Unlike Massa or Barrichello, each Cat B also, they would come out every year and say this was their year to beat Michael and then as the year wore on the excuses came out. They had their good days, but they could not fight all the time with Cat A.

Webber, Coulthard, Raikkonen, Bottas, Ricciardo all Cat B.
I agree with your overview.

On Alesi - he certainly had Cat A skills, his moves on Senna at Phoenix were evidence alone.
It's a pity the Ferrari could not deliver.

Europa1

9,403 posts

138 months

Sunday 10th February 2019
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spunkytherabbit said:
Galileo said:
Irvine has always been and probably always will be a weapons grade bell-end
I have just laughed out loud on a conference call reading this!!!!!
I quite liked him when he was racing, as he was occasionally an antidote to the general wall to wall corporate speak.

Now, I rank his pronouncements with those of Jacques Villeneuve, who even when he was racing in F1 I regarded as a weapons grade bellend.

TobyTR

740 posts

96 months

Monday 11th February 2019
quotequote all
DS240 said:
I'll try to cover my views on the different points raised....

Vettel -
I do not believe is massively over rated. I don't think you can fluke or get lucky on 4 world titles. The last 3 years have been massively disappointing though, I would say as a Ferrari fan. he is fast, works well with the team, but is not delivering the consistency.

Berger / Alesi -
Both were good, solid drivers. I think Ferrari hoped Berger was the all round reliable one and Alesi was going to be the superstar. Ultimately I don't think either were your world title material. Plus they never really got the car from Ferrari to go for it. My love of F1 started in 93 and followed Ferrari from that time.

Schumacher -
The best. Too easy to dismiss the success over the infamous incidents. He was all round fast, consistent, clever, brutal, driven and changed the game with work ethic and preparation.

Probably best to discuss how I see drivers on the grid now before going onto Irvine. They are all top of their game, but like any sport there are those who sit at the top and those who sit at the bottom. We aren't talking about a huge degree of skill difference, but there are those who operate at the top, those in the middle who sometimes reach the top and then those who make up the bottom level. Split into Cat A, B and C.

Irvine -
For example, i'd say he was a Cat B. And I reckon he'd agree with that also. He openly said he couldn't fight Michael and never pretended he was there to win the title from him. He performed the solid team mate role and he nearly got his WDC reward when Michael broke his leg. Unlike Massa or Barrichello, each Cat B also, they would come out every year and say this was their year to beat Michael and then as the year wore on the excuses came out. They had their good days, but they could not fight all the time with Cat A.

Webber, Coulthard, Raikkonen, Bottas, Ricciardo all Cat B.
I agree with all that, except Raikkonen I'd class as Cat A 2003-2007 (before he lost 'it') and Ricciardo Cat A if given a consistent race-winning car; he's already proven to have more talent than Webber and Coulthard, with bigger cojones when it matters, too. Imo, Ricciardo in a Merc or Ferrari would've done a slightly better job than Vettel last year, he's a beast.

Derek Smith

35,346 posts

198 months

Monday 11th February 2019
quotequote all
DS240 said:
Irvine -
For example, i'd say he was a Cat B. And I reckon he'd agree with that also.

Webber, Coulthard, Raikkonen, Bottas, Ricciardo all Cat B.
I'm certain he would and does not. At the time he said that there were just two world class drivers on the grid, him and MS and he graciously admitted MS was the better.

Raikk as class B? There's a thought.





Edited by Derek Smith on Monday 11th February 14:28

DS240

3,111 posts

168 months

Monday 11th February 2019
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Derek Smith said:
[quote=DS240

Irvine -
For example, i'd say he was a Cat B. And I reckon he'd agree with that also.

Webber, Coulthard, Raikkonen, Bottas, Ricciardo all Cat B.
I'm certain he would and does not. At the time he said that there were just two world class drivers on the grid, him and MS and he graciously admitted MS was the better.

Raikk as class B? There's a thought.

Okay maybe a little harsh on a world champion. However, the last few years have not exactly been special.

I'd have sacked him from Ferrari a long time ago!

In fact, reflecting on it, the last few years I'd stand by the Cat B for him.

Duns

105 posts

15 months

Monday 18th February 2019
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It may have been Lewis & Mercedes worked well together last year and did better with the opportunities they had. Marchionne's passing wouldn't have helped.

chris285

811 posts

82 months

Tuesday 9th April 2019
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For me Vettel's biggest issue seems to be if the car is not working well and as he likes it, then he struggles to make the car perform and for me the RB was spot on and so is why he was in a great car setup as he liked and only had his teamate on a consistent challenge basis. Not doubting his abilties but to me that seems to be his biggest flaw in an otherwise very good driver.

Also let's face it a lot of F1 now is about simply being a good driver in the right car during that season, I am a Lewis fan and thought he'd made a big mistake going to mercedes but it's the best move made by any driver in a decade IMO.

I can't really remember much of Schumacher during his winning era and can't say as a driver that I liked him, but you don't win 7 titles with 2 teams without being one of the best and especially when you have to help lead the Ferrari team on joining.

Senna was a flawed driver thats for sure and i think he was the greatest driver, but without having a full season in the same cars of drivers to compare we can never say this driver was the best

For me the ability to drag an average car ahead of where it should probably be, the greats in Senna and Schmacher and so on demonstrate this and for me is why Vettel is a good driver but behind the best.

Supersam83

347 posts

95 months

Tuesday 9th April 2019
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chris285 said:
For me the ability to drag an average car ahead of where it should probably be, the greats in Senna and Schumacher and so on demonstrate this and for me is why Vettel is a good driver but behind the best.
Surely Seb Vettel dragging the Toro Rosso in mixed wet/damp conditions to his 1st F1 win @ Monza in 2008 falls into this category?

Wasn't 4 time Champcar/Indycar champion Seb Bourdais his teammate at the time and finished 1 lap down and Toro Rosso were using 2007 spec engines.


Jasandjules

63,595 posts

179 months

Tuesday 9th April 2019
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Supersam83 said:
Surely Seb Vettel dragging the Toro Rosso in mixed wet/damp conditions to his 1st F1 win @ Monza in 2008 falls into this category?
Yes, it is that I have always clung to. Along with a race (I can't recall where) with the Red Bull where he went out in Q1, did one lap, Q2 went out and did one lap then Q3 did one lap and got Pole.....It was just a supreme exhibition of a driver in full control.

It is a bit like Button in Canada.....

slipstream 1985

6,752 posts

129 months

Tuesday 9th April 2019
quotequote all
Supersam83 said:
chris285 said:
For me the ability to drag an average car ahead of where it should probably be, the greats in Senna and Schumacher and so on demonstrate this and for me is why Vettel is a good driver but behind the best.
Surely Seb Vettel dragging the Toro Rosso in mixed wet/damp conditions to his 1st F1 win @ Monza in 2008 falls into this category?

Wasn't 4 time Champcar/Indycar champion Seb Bourdais his teammate at the time and finished 1 lap down and Toro Rosso were using 2007 spec engines.
This is the case of the facts of history being lost in the stats of history. Infighting at Mclaren in 2001 as well as total gifts from a teammate gave Kimi his championship.

And toro rosso did they not go for a full wet set up gamble for monza? No denying it was a great performance but it didn't mean Vettel was some sort of wet weather driving god.

Teddy Lop

2,345 posts

17 months

Tuesday 9th April 2019
quotequote all
slipstream 1985 said:
Supersam83 said:
chris285 said:
For me the ability to drag an average car ahead of where it should probably be, the greats in Senna and Schumacher and so on demonstrate this and for me is why Vettel is a good driver but behind the best.
Surely Seb Vettel dragging the Toro Rosso in mixed wet/damp conditions to his 1st F1 win @ Monza in 2008 falls into this category?

Wasn't 4 time Champcar/Indycar champion Seb Bourdais his teammate at the time and finished 1 lap down and Toro Rosso were using 2007 spec engines.
This is the case of the facts of history being lost in the stats of history. Infighting at Mclaren in 2001 as well as total gifts from a teammate gave Kimi his championship.

And toro rosso did they not go for a full wet set up gamble for monza? No denying it was a great performance but it didn't mean Vettel was some sort of wet weather driving god.
The sunday was expected to be dry so most teams went into the wet qually with a dry setup, thus hampering themselves in both that and race. TR/seb claimed to be on par but I've always believed they were fibbing and gambled a wet setup, the TR/seb was just too good.

FourWheelDrift

79,096 posts

234 months

Tuesday 9th April 2019
quotequote all
Supersam83 said:
Surely Seb Vettel dragging the Toro Rosso in mixed wet/damp conditions to his 1st F1 win @ Monza in 2008 falls into this category?

Wasn't 4 time Champcar/Indycar champion Seb Bourdais his teammate at the time and finished 1 lap down and Toro Rosso were using 2007 spec engines.
Bourdais qualified 4th and his car failed to start on the grid so was pushed off back to the pits and by the time he got going he was already a lap down. They used the Ferrari 056 engine (V8) same as Ferrari and Force India, give or take factory team tweaks.

Muzzer79

3,038 posts

137 months

Tuesday 9th April 2019
quotequote all
FourWheelDrift said:
Supersam83 said:
Surely Seb Vettel dragging the Toro Rosso in mixed wet/damp conditions to his 1st F1 win @ Monza in 2008 falls into this category?

Wasn't 4 time Champcar/Indycar champion Seb Bourdais his teammate at the time and finished 1 lap down and Toro Rosso were using 2007 spec engines.
Bourdais qualified 4th and his car failed to start on the grid so was pushed off back to the pits and by the time he got going he was already a lap down. They used the Ferrari 056 engine (V8) same as Ferrari and Force India, give or take factory team tweaks.
That was a weird race.

I felt for Bourdais that day - he was really unlucky. He actually got the second fastest lap time in the race and Vettel, strangely given his dominance, only got 14th.

Anyhow, regarding Vettel himself, I have a nagging theory:

Mark Webber has freely admitted that SV made more of the blown diffuser concept during the 2009-2013 era than he did. The ability to nail the throttle mid corner to get the diffuser working and find the grip really suited Vettel much more than him.

Since the car concept has changed, Vettel has looked good, but nothing like his exceptional former self. Perhaps that was his golden key and without it, he'll never reach the heights again?

HTP99

15,613 posts

90 months

Tuesday 9th April 2019
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
FourWheelDrift said:
Supersam83 said:
Surely Seb Vettel dragging the Toro Rosso in mixed wet/damp conditions to his 1st F1 win @ Monza in 2008 falls into this category?

Wasn't 4 time Champcar/Indycar champion Seb Bourdais his teammate at the time and finished 1 lap down and Toro Rosso were using 2007 spec engines.
Bourdais qualified 4th and his car failed to start on the grid so was pushed off back to the pits and by the time he got going he was already a lap down. They used the Ferrari 056 engine (V8) same as Ferrari and Force India, give or take factory team tweaks.
That was a weird race.

I felt for Bourdais that day - he was really unlucky. He actually got the second fastest lap time in the race and Vettel, strangely given his dominance, only got 14th.

Anyhow, regarding Vettel himself, I have a nagging theory:

Mark Webber has freely admitted that SV made more of the blown diffuser concept during the 2009-2013 era than he did. The ability to nail the throttle mid corner to get the diffuser working and find the grip really suited Vettel much more than him.

Since the car concept has changed, Vettel has looked good, but nothing like his exceptional former self. Perhaps that was his golden key and without it, he'll never reach the heights again?
I seem to recall when the blown diffuser had to be turned down due to protests or something, Webber actually outperformed Vettel, I think RB appealed, they partially won and the blown diffuser could be turned back up a few notches, not to where it was but enough and Vettel then started to out perform Webber again.

TobyTR

740 posts

96 months

Wednesday 10th April 2019
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
That was a weird race.

I felt for Bourdais that day - he was really unlucky. He actually got the second fastest lap time in the race and Vettel, strangely given his dominance, only got 14th.

Anyhow, regarding Vettel himself, I have a nagging theory:

Mark Webber has freely admitted that SV made more of the blown diffuser concept during the 2009-2013 era than he did. The ability to nail the throttle mid corner to get the diffuser working and find the grip really suited Vettel much more than him.

Since the car concept has changed, Vettel has looked good, but nothing like his exceptional former self. Perhaps that was his golden key and without it, he'll never reach the heights again?
You could be onto something there. It could be that this turbo-hybrid era with heaps of low-down torque doesn't suit Vettel; hence why he spins it as often as he does(?)

Bullitt Five-Oh

876 posts

17 months

Wednesday 10th April 2019
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It's not a secret and many experts made comments back in his RB days on how sloppy an average Vettel lap was, he was missing apexes like crazy yet he still managed to do fast times. If had a car that suited his sloppy style (thanks to the diffuser) then I'm not surprised that he's now struggling.

LaurasOtherHalf

16,259 posts

146 months

Wednesday 10th April 2019
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Bullitt Five-Oh said:
It's not a secret and many experts made comments back in his RB days on how sloppy an average Vettel lap was, he was missing apexes like crazy yet he still managed to do fast times. If had a car that suited his sloppy style (thanks to the diffuser) then I'm not surprised that he's now struggling.
We’ll never know though will we? As for the sloppy comments (Hamilton said that didn’t he?) perhaps it wasn’t sloppiness, perhaps that was the magic way to drive the blown defuser that everyone else missed.

I don’t buy the theory above about his spinning all the time. Bahrain is the only example I can think of of him doing it under power? Every other time it’s been as a result of contact or at Canada under pressure from Button, corner entry.

Do I rate Vettel as one of the greats? No. Is he one of the best on the grid? He’s up there.

I think you can safely say he was the best in the blown defuser cars at getting the best out of them.

His other skill is one lap Qually pace-it’s literally out of this world.

But the above two skills only really come good when he’s teamed with a car to his liking, in a great team and with a performance advantage.

In other words, the two years he walked the championship.

In other circumstances his results are a mixed bag. Some he won championships, some he lost.

Yes his challenges imploded in ‘17 and ‘18 but people forget his other two championships that were hard fought and well deserved.

He has his flaws but no one becomes a four time world champion without some serious skills. It just might not be the most entertaining set of skills for us to watch.



Sa Calobra

28,939 posts

161 months

Wednesday 10th April 2019
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Vettel is good but when the teams were throwing around their weight and threatening a break away series strangely RB was very dominant....

TheDeuce

4,286 posts

16 months

Wednesday 10th April 2019
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Tbh I find this thread a bit silly.

The margins between an all time time great and a nearly ran are not so great as to call any driver 'massively' overrated. In a fair comparison between Vettel and Hamilton, when either are not pressured they are both capable of natural, flowing and fast laps. Either can wring the very best out of a car in a quali lap.

The real difference is in their character. Hamilton performs better under pressure. That's an important and valuable difference, but it doesn't make it reasonable to say Vettel is massively overrated imo. He's a very good, very fast driver - he just happens to be matched by a driver that has a level of cool and focus that is frankly astonishing. And now, it seems that a few of the latest generation of drivers also have the Hamilton ability to stay cool. Max excepted, of course.

I believe if you gave Hamilton and Vettel the same car, sufficient practice and then took the quickest of ten timed laps from each, you would end up with a broadly similar fastest lap. A sense of perspective is due I think. He's consistently beaten by Hamilton not because he's 'massively' overrated, but because Hamilton is consistently a little more stable when under huge pressure. When Vettel leads, Hamilton is second/third. When Hamilton leads, Vettel often screws up his entire race.

rallycross

10,618 posts

187 months

Wednesday 10th April 2019
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TheDeuce said:
Tbh I find this thread a bit silly.

The margins between an all time time great and a nearly ran are not so great as to call any driver 'massively' overrated. In a fair comparison between Vettel and Hamilton, when either are not pressured they are both capable of natural, flowing and fast laps. Either can wring the very best out of a car.

I believe if you gave Hamilton and Vettel the same car, sufficient practice and then took the quickest of ten timed laps from each, you would end up with a broadly similar fastest lap. A sense of perspective is due I think. He's consistently beaten by Hamilton not because he's 'massively' overrated, but because Hamilton is consistently a little more stable when under huge pressure. When Vettel leads, Hamilton is second/third. When Hamilton leads, Vettel often screws up his entire race.
Correct but don’t spoil it for the fan-boys and their silly ideas.