Discussion
DanielSan said:
'An evolution of last years car with certain parts focused on to improve the performance for their resources'
Basically they're running further off the back this year and praying for a miracle next year
From what i've seen you could attribute that quote to ll the cars launched so far, nobody is coming with a concept change in the last year of the current regsBasically they're running further off the back this year and praying for a miracle next year
NewUsername said:
From what i've seen you could attribute that quote to ll the cars launched so far, nobody is coming with a concept change in the last year of the current regs
It's not about expecting a concept change. Reading between the lines I get the impression Williams have done a good deal less than the other teams. TheDeuce said:
NewUsername said:
From what i've seen you could attribute that quote to ll the cars launched so far, nobody is coming with a concept change in the last year of the current regs
It's not about expecting a concept change. Reading between the lines I get the impression Williams have done a good deal less than the other teams. They are hoping that everyone else hasn't bothered much this year as well. Which even if they all just developed last year's car a bit, would still be massively in front of Williams.
Tyre Smoke said:
Presumably because they a) Don't want to spend their meagre resources and b) new regs next year, so throw as much as they can afford at that instead.
They are hoping that everyone else hasn't bothered much this year as well. Which even if they all just developed last year's car a bit, would still be massively in front of Williams.
Sad as it is I do agree. In the end, if making the car competitive isn't an option - why spend any resources at all on it? Either way they're at the back. Might as well save the money for next year.They are hoping that everyone else hasn't bothered much this year as well. Which even if they all just developed last year's car a bit, would still be massively in front of Williams.
Part of me had hoped maybe the team could have identified something that can be fixed/improved over the winter that could give them at least a target of p17/18 occasionally. From the way they've presented this car though, one rather gets the impression that even that target might be a little optimistic.
There's just no point in trying to claw back 3 secs in the last year of regulations before a big overhaul. They have to grin & bear it, hopefully pick up a lucky point somewhere, then come out of the blocks solidly in the upper midfield next year. Anything less than that and they might as well pull the plug on F1 and do something else - FE or sportscars.
Not really sure what everyone expected them to say?
They know that the whole world knows they don't have the resources that other teams do.
They also know the whole world knows just how badly last year went.
They thirdly also know that 2020 is a stopgap year where none of the teams are going to do anything radical with their car.
Sounds to me like they're just being realistic instead of trying to sell people a bridge.
Might sound depressing to some but I think it's about right for where they're at. If all they've done is improve the areas that seriously let them down last year then that's a good thing. Focus on those bits and maybe just maybe the underlying car isn't so bad.
After all, what's the point in making a massive change to the concept if you still can't trust the car to go over kerbs properly or be ready on time? Seems to me they've already done better than last year by passing crash tests on time and they'll have a car ready for testing on the first day, that's a big change already.
They know that the whole world knows they don't have the resources that other teams do.
They also know the whole world knows just how badly last year went.
They thirdly also know that 2020 is a stopgap year where none of the teams are going to do anything radical with their car.
Sounds to me like they're just being realistic instead of trying to sell people a bridge.
Might sound depressing to some but I think it's about right for where they're at. If all they've done is improve the areas that seriously let them down last year then that's a good thing. Focus on those bits and maybe just maybe the underlying car isn't so bad.
After all, what's the point in making a massive change to the concept if you still can't trust the car to go over kerbs properly or be ready on time? Seems to me they've already done better than last year by passing crash tests on time and they'll have a car ready for testing on the first day, that's a big change already.
F1GTRUeno said:
Not really sure what everyone expected them to say?
They know that the whole world knows they don't have the resources that other teams do.
They also know the whole world knows just how badly last year went.
They thirdly also know that 2020 is a stopgap year where none of the teams are going to do anything radical with their car.
Sounds to me like they're just being realistic instead of trying to sell people a bridge.
Might sound depressing to some but I think it's about right for where they're at. If all they've done is improve the areas that seriously let them down last year then that's a good thing. Focus on those bits and maybe just maybe the underlying car isn't so bad.
After all, what's the point in making a massive change to the concept if you still can't trust the car to go over kerbs properly or be ready on time? Seems to me they've already done better than last year by passing crash tests on time and they'll have a car ready for testing on the first day, that's a big change already.
Indeed. And did anyone really expect more? Probably not really. My hope was that they would possibly identify a specific improvement that they could make over the winter - something aero that could make the car more dependable and predictable for the drivers. I was hopeful as I read the quotes from the press release they would be able to point to something like that. I'm sure they would have if they had made a tangible improvement, so in that respect my hopes were dashed a little, albeit they were very much hopes not expectations. They referred to general aero work being positive but I'm sure all teams could say that with the benefit of last year's data and 3 months to apply it to this year's car.They know that the whole world knows they don't have the resources that other teams do.
They also know the whole world knows just how badly last year went.
They thirdly also know that 2020 is a stopgap year where none of the teams are going to do anything radical with their car.
Sounds to me like they're just being realistic instead of trying to sell people a bridge.
Might sound depressing to some but I think it's about right for where they're at. If all they've done is improve the areas that seriously let them down last year then that's a good thing. Focus on those bits and maybe just maybe the underlying car isn't so bad.
After all, what's the point in making a massive change to the concept if you still can't trust the car to go over kerbs properly or be ready on time? Seems to me they've already done better than last year by passing crash tests on time and they'll have a car ready for testing on the first day, that's a big change already.
It's all very well saying this is a throwaway year and the focus should be on 2021, but they also need to retain and attract sponsors to keep the bills paid, something they've already struggled with this year based on last year's poor results. That's why some improvement this year would be very timely imo. Even the target was to snatch the odd p17 on merit. Feels odd that such a low target probably remains out of reach for Williams.
F1GTRUeno said:
Not really sure what everyone expected them to say?
They know that the whole world knows they don't have the resources that other teams do.
They also know the whole world knows just how badly last year went.
They thirdly also know that 2020 is a stopgap year where none of the teams are going to do anything radical with their car.
Sounds to me like they're just being realistic instead of trying to sell people a bridge.
Might sound depressing to some but I think it's about right for where they're at. If all they've done is improve the areas that seriously let them down last year then that's a good thing. Focus on those bits and maybe just maybe the underlying car isn't so bad.
After all, what's the point in making a massive change to the concept if you still can't trust the car to go over kerbs properly or be ready on time? Seems to me they've already done better than last year by passing crash tests on time and they'll have a car ready for testing on the first day, that's a big change already.
If they ditched 500 staff members from their roster of 700 and were a little more realistic about what they are doing and where they are, I think they'd have more sympathy. They are running around at the back, way off the pace and have a roster of staff three times the size of Haas and Racing Point. What the hell are all these people doing?They know that the whole world knows they don't have the resources that other teams do.
They also know the whole world knows just how badly last year went.
They thirdly also know that 2020 is a stopgap year where none of the teams are going to do anything radical with their car.
Sounds to me like they're just being realistic instead of trying to sell people a bridge.
Might sound depressing to some but I think it's about right for where they're at. If all they've done is improve the areas that seriously let them down last year then that's a good thing. Focus on those bits and maybe just maybe the underlying car isn't so bad.
After all, what's the point in making a massive change to the concept if you still can't trust the car to go over kerbs properly or be ready on time? Seems to me they've already done better than last year by passing crash tests on time and they'll have a car ready for testing on the first day, that's a big change already.
Tyre Smoke said:
If they ditched 500 staff members from their roster of 700 and were a little more realistic about what they are doing and where they are, I think they'd have more sympathy. They are running around at the back, way off the pace and have a roster of staff three times the size of Haas and Racing Point. What the hell are all these people doing?
That's the point I always come back to. The team is huge, budget farcical.What I don't understand is how having so many people doesn't translate in to performance. I get that once they've paid the wageroll and business costs there isn't 'money for the car'. But they do of course manage to deliver (just about) 'a car'. The material costs have to be met no matter what, but the difference between a good and a bad car is how those materials are used, and that the job of the team staff to get right. We know the car has very limited downforce, but why? How was that not foreseeable? You can never be sure to get aero absolutely right using CFD, but pretty damn close to right.
When the 2019 car arrived there was a lot of comment about the very basic looking aero, particularly the bargeboards. Fair enough, they'd obviously struggled to get a car out the door at all, so I thought there would be a succession of updates to follow. There wasn't though, and at the season end they still had very unevolved looking bargeboards. The material costs to produce a better design are only so much, the real cost is in people to r&d, and they have those people paid for already. They also have the workshops to produce the parts from scratch. The setup they have should be capable of churning out well judged updates.
What is the issue that prevents all the people and facilities they have from delivering an at least slightly competitive car?
Speed Badger said:
There's just no point in trying to claw back 3 secs in the last year of regulations before a big overhaul. They have to grin & bear it, hopefully pick up a lucky point somewhere, then come out of the blocks solidly in the upper midfield next year. Anything less than that and they might as well pull the plug on F1 and do something else - FE or sportscars.
If they cant produce a competitive car in regs that have been around a long time with arguably the best engine on the grid - wheres the evidence to suggest that they will be anything other than at the back of the grid again, save for the possibility of another team at the back of the grid producing a complete dog?The 2020 car looks very smart in the new livery.
Regardless of all the bluster down the grid I can only see Red Bull and Ferrari putting a real effort in this year to depose Mercedes as its the last chance wiith these rules.
The whole thing has gone to a ridiculous level with all the CFD and wind tunnels telling them to fabricate increasingly bizarre bits of plastic.
Reb dull have a good chance this year as they seem to have the most strange new oddball bits on the car.
Next year should be great when its all stripped off.
The rest know they are on a hiding to nothing anyway and hope for better next year.
There is no point in Williams trying to get to where the top 3 are and the best chance is the new rules.
So I would guess they are currently thrilled how its going.
Regardless of all the bluster down the grid I can only see Red Bull and Ferrari putting a real effort in this year to depose Mercedes as its the last chance wiith these rules.
The whole thing has gone to a ridiculous level with all the CFD and wind tunnels telling them to fabricate increasingly bizarre bits of plastic.
Reb dull have a good chance this year as they seem to have the most strange new oddball bits on the car.
Next year should be great when its all stripped off.
The rest know they are on a hiding to nothing anyway and hope for better next year.
There is no point in Williams trying to get to where the top 3 are and the best chance is the new rules.
So I would guess they are currently thrilled how its going.
Fundoreen said:
The 2020 car looks very smart in the new livery.
Regardless of all the bluster down the grid I can only see Red Bull and Ferrari putting a real effort in this year to depose Mercedes as its the last chance wiith these rules.
The whole thing has gone to a ridiculous level with all the CFD and wind tunnels telling them to fabricate increasingly bizarre bits of plastic.
Reb dull have a good chance this year as they seem to have the most strange new oddball bits on the car.
Next year should be great when its all stripped off.
The rest know they are on a hiding to nothing anyway and hope for better next year.
There is no point in Williams trying to get to where the top 3 are and the best chance is the new rules.
So I would guess they are currently thrilled how its going.
Will the new regs make the cars simpler though? Or will the areas left where the designers still have free will get even more complex as they seek to find small advantages with diminishing returns?Regardless of all the bluster down the grid I can only see Red Bull and Ferrari putting a real effort in this year to depose Mercedes as its the last chance wiith these rules.
The whole thing has gone to a ridiculous level with all the CFD and wind tunnels telling them to fabricate increasingly bizarre bits of plastic.
Reb dull have a good chance this year as they seem to have the most strange new oddball bits on the car.
Next year should be great when its all stripped off.
The rest know they are on a hiding to nothing anyway and hope for better next year.
There is no point in Williams trying to get to where the top 3 are and the best chance is the new rules.
So I would guess they are currently thrilled how its going.
As an aside, Williams with their facilities and team size should be very capable of doing at least an average job of all the fiddly bits that are currently required for the cars to perform. Yet they don't, so perhaps there are other issues.. money no doubt has an impact on everything they do, and that's one thing 2021 might not help them with, the cap being beyond the budget they can raise in any case.
Edit: I'd also add McLaren to your list of cars that have made an effort this year - they've changed a lot and there is something new and odd about the engine cover/back of car.
Assuming the tub is indeed carried over from last year where do you think the lions share of the ‘3second’ deficit can be made up?
Williams have the shortest wheelbase iirc So the aero disadvantage there will remain.
Would taking the merc gearbox help? Lowe seemed to be the main force behind keeping the in house ally unit which still seems an odd decision.
Williams have the shortest wheelbase iirc So the aero disadvantage there will remain.
Would taking the merc gearbox help? Lowe seemed to be the main force behind keeping the in house ally unit which still seems an odd decision.
shirt said:
Assuming the tub is indeed carried over from last year where do you think the lions share of the ‘3second’ deficit can be made up?
Williams have the shortest wheelbase iirc So the aero disadvantage there will remain.
Would taking the merc gearbox help? Lowe seemed to be the main force behind keeping the in house ally unit which still seems an odd decision.
Sticking with the ally box in a CF world is weird, although it could simply be down to the fact that Williams make their own, and they seem intent on making everything in-house that they possibly can. Also perhaps intent on not taking steps closer to being seen as a mercedes b-team.Williams have the shortest wheelbase iirc So the aero disadvantage there will remain.
Would taking the merc gearbox help? Lowe seemed to be the main force behind keeping the in house ally unit which still seems an odd decision.
As for the 3 seconds.. I think it's not that the car is absolutely 3 seconds off the pace, but rather it's unpredictable handling means the drivers can't realistically do the fastest laps that the car can theoretically manage - for risk of it letting go unexpectedly. Both drivers last year had strange offs/snaps.
If you're not confident in the car, you kind of have to drive it assuming it will let you down if you prod it too hard. Confidence is probably worth about half of the deficit we saw. Kubica made a few comments along those lines for sure.
Also a factor is the 'no driving over kerbs' saga. The reason the other drivers do it is to save time.. If you're not allowed to to do the same, you lose out.
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