Williams F1

Williams F1

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jsf

22,434 posts

201 months

Friday 26th March
quotequote all
Smollet said:
Iirc he was signed before the 96 season had even started. Nothing like a bit of confidence in your drivers.
They didn't tell him until the only drive left was Arrows. Not a great way to treat your number 1 driver who helped the team through the loss of Senna.

rider73

1,365 posts

42 months

Friday 26th March
quotequote all
jsf said:
Smollet said:
Iirc he was signed before the 96 season had even started. Nothing like a bit of confidence in your drivers.
They didn't tell him until the only drive left was Arrows. Not a great way to treat your number 1 driver who helped the team through the loss of Senna.
Yes i think it was Autosport or Motorsport magazine that ran the news mid season and was dismissed by everyone for around 2 months, until Frank told Hill , yet HHF had stated that he had signed the year before, and also as it comes out later as history, Head / Frank also agreed that was the case - so yes, they simply wanted the best for the team and thought keeping it from Hill would mean he would keep focus and win the title, but doing that cost Hill any chance of negotiation of a top drive as early as possible.

carl_w

6,639 posts

223 months

Friday 26th March
quotequote all
jsf said:
They didn't tell him until the only drive left was Arrows. Not a great way to treat your number 1 driver who helped the team through the loss of Senna.
I thought he had an offer from McLaren but it was results-based (i.e. no points = no cash)?

[Edit: turns out that was for 1998, not 1997]

Edited by carl_w on Friday 26th March 17:35

jsf

22,434 posts

201 months

Friday 26th March
quotequote all
carl_w said:
I thought he had an offer from McLaren but it was results-based (i.e. no points = no cash)?
That's not what a world champion would call a serious offer.

I am sure you got the point though, they strung him along until his options were very limited, pretty stty way to treat any driver, never mind someone as decent as Damon.

thegreenhell

8,481 posts

184 months

Friday 26th March
quotequote all
Hill also had a serious offer from JYS to join the new Stewart team, but he felt that Arrows would be a better bet than something brand new. It also gave him the opportunity to go for just a one year deal and then look for something else, without feeling that he was deserting his friend if Stewart didn't work out for him. In the end they both scored a second place result in '97, but it's crazy when you look back at the season results and see how many retirements there were compared to now. Stewart only had 8 finishes out of 34 starts that year.


SpudLink

3,558 posts

157 months

Friday 26th March
quotequote all
However poorly they treated Damon, it is a great gesturer by the current Williams team to honour Murray Walker.

TheDeuce

9,108 posts

31 months

Monday 3rd May
quotequote all
Quite revealing, paddy on his final two years at Williams: https://youtu.be/j65L14gt19c

It's all worth a listen but the Williams stuff is in the last quarter.

He starts by saying he doesn't want to talk about it.. then goes on to talk about it quite a bit. No major surprises, obviously money was a key issue, but interesting to hear his views about the general attitude and talent level at the team at the time.

Piginapoke

1,881 posts

150 months

Monday 3rd May
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Quite revealing, paddy on his final two years at Williams: https://youtu.be/j65L14gt19c

It's all worth a listen but the Williams stuff is in the last quarter.

He starts by saying he doesn't want to talk about it.. then goes on to talk about it quite a bit. No major surprises, obviously money was a key issue, but interesting to hear his views about the general attitude and talent level at the team at the time.
Sorry Deuce, completely disagree. Paddy was happy to talk about all the good years but not how it all went wrong at Williams, beyond the obvious poor process = poor car. As a TD, to have a car turn up late, illegal, and 4 seconds off the pace was unforgivable and I thought it was very poor he wouldn't share what exactly happened.


jsf

22,434 posts

201 months

Monday 3rd May
quotequote all
Piginapoke said:
Sorry Deuce, completely disagree. Paddy was happy to talk about all the good years but not how it all went wrong at Williams, beyond the obvious poor process = poor car. As a TD, to have a car turn up late, illegal, and 4 seconds off the pace was unforgivable and I thought it was very poor he wouldn't share what exactly happened.
You don't hear the truth behind most goings on in top level teams in any sport or competitive environment, this is especially the case now. Too much money and too many people with vested interests involved to tell the real details.

n3il123

2,155 posts

178 months

Monday 3rd May
quotequote all
Piginapoke said:
TheDeuce said:
Quite revealing, paddy on his final two years at Williams: https://youtu.be/j65L14gt19c

It's all worth a listen but the Williams stuff is in the last quarter.

He starts by saying he doesn't want to talk about it.. then goes on to talk about it quite a bit. No major surprises, obviously money was a key issue, but interesting to hear his views about the general attitude and talent level at the team at the time.
Sorry Deuce, completely disagree. Paddy was happy to talk about all the good years but not how it all went wrong at Williams, beyond the obvious poor process = poor car. As a TD, to have a car turn up late, illegal, and 4 seconds off the pace was unforgivable and I thought it was very poor he wouldn't share what exactly happened.
Agree he'd have been better off hiding behind an NDA and not saying anything tbh.

TheDeuce

9,108 posts

31 months

Monday 3rd May
quotequote all
Piginapoke said:
TheDeuce said:
Quite revealing, paddy on his final two years at Williams: https://youtu.be/j65L14gt19c

It's all worth a listen but the Williams stuff is in the last quarter.

He starts by saying he doesn't want to talk about it.. then goes on to talk about it quite a bit. No major surprises, obviously money was a key issue, but interesting to hear his views about the general attitude and talent level at the team at the time.
Sorry Deuce, completely disagree. Paddy was happy to talk about all the good years but not how it all went wrong at Williams, beyond the obvious poor process = poor car. As a TD, to have a car turn up late, illegal, and 4 seconds off the pace was unforgivable and I thought it was very poor he wouldn't share what exactly happened.
What bit are you disagreeing about? I said he was initially short of talk and then loosened up a bit.. that's just what happened.

As for his delivery of the 2019 car, I think we'd have to be a bit basic to conclude all was on track at Williams up until the point paddy came along and ruined it all wink

We're not privy to the facts - but it seems very likely that the team had no real hope of delivering a suitable car irrespective of who took responsibility for it in the media. Paddy was bit one man, a single appointment. Against the fact that the entire outfit was already unsustainable and very much on the back foot at that point.

Piginapoke

1,881 posts

150 months

Monday 3rd May
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
What bit are you disagreeing about? I said he was initially short of talk and then loosened up a bit.. that's just what happened.

As for his delivery of the 2019 car, I think we'd have to be a bit basic to conclude all was on track at Williams up until the point paddy came along and ruined it all wink

We're not privy to the facts - but it seems very likely that the team had no real hope of delivering a suitable car irrespective of who took responsibility for it in the media. Paddy was bit one man, a single appointment. Against the fact that the entire outfit was already unsustainable and very much on the back foot at that point.
He was the boss? No one's saying he was going to produce a WDC car, but what happened under his watch was very poor. I didn't think it showed him in a good light to talk about everything else apart from that.

TheDeuce

9,108 posts

31 months

Monday 3rd May
quotequote all
Piginapoke said:
TheDeuce said:
What bit are you disagreeing about? I said he was initially short of talk and then loosened up a bit.. that's just what happened.

As for his delivery of the 2019 car, I think we'd have to be a bit basic to conclude all was on track at Williams up until the point paddy came along and ruined it all wink

We're not privy to the facts - but it seems very likely that the team had no real hope of delivering a suitable car irrespective of who took responsibility for it in the media. Paddy was bit one man, a single appointment. Against the fact that the entire outfit was already unsustainable and very much on the back foot at that point.
He was the boss? No one's saying he was going to produce a WDC car, but what happened under his watch was very poor. I didn't think it showed him in a good light to talk about everything else apart from that.
Well I assume he's under certain limitations as to how far he can talk about it to be honest.. but regardless, what do you think the team had that he squandered!? I think they had the potential to acheive sod all at the time, and he was the fool that took the credit for acheiving the 'sod all' they had to offer.

You can only do so much when you have such limited resources to work with.

rider73

1,365 posts

42 months

Monday 3rd May
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Piginapoke said:
TheDeuce said:
What bit are you disagreeing about? I said he was initially short of talk and then loosened up a bit.. that's just what happened.

As for his delivery of the 2019 car, I think we'd have to be a bit basic to conclude all was on track at Williams up until the point paddy came along and ruined it all wink

We're not privy to the facts - but it seems very likely that the team had no real hope of delivering a suitable car irrespective of who took responsibility for it in the media. Paddy was bit one man, a single appointment. Against the fact that the entire outfit was already unsustainable and very much on the back foot at that point.
He was the boss? No one's saying he was going to produce a WDC car, but what happened under his watch was very poor. I didn't think it showed him in a good light to talk about everything else apart from that.
Well I assume he's under certain limitations as to how far he can talk about it to be honest.. but regardless, what do you think the team had that he squandered!? I think they had the potential to acheive sod all at the time, and he was the fool that took the credit for acheiving the 'sod all' they had to offer.

You can only do so much when you have such limited resources to work with.
this

and at the end of the day why he should get all the crap similar to the quotes above for the last years of a dying team that the owners were too stubborn to accept, when all he was given to work with was as far as we know, an apprentice A level physics student and a pile of playdoh to create a car with.

RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat

12,195 posts

60 months

Monday 3rd May
quotequote all
rider73 said:
this

and at the end of the day why he should get all the crap similar to the quotes above for the last years of a dying team that the owners were too stubborn to accept, when all he was given to work with was as far as we know, an apprentice A level physics student and a pile of playdoh to create a car with.
We don't know what promises he made to them when interviewed for the job.

TheDeuce

9,108 posts

31 months

Monday 3rd May
quotequote all
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
rider73 said:
this

and at the end of the day why he should get all the crap similar to the quotes above for the last years of a dying team that the owners were too stubborn to accept, when all he was given to work with was as far as we know, an apprentice A level physics student and a pile of playdoh to create a car with.
We don't know what promises he made to them when interviewed for the job.
True...

But also vice-versa. We simply don't know who promised who what.

What we do know is that paddy was the headline signing, and as such the first to be blamed if it went wrong, at least so far as the media are concerned..

I don't personally believe he was the failing of the Williams team though! He was just 'there'... The team had already failed, and stubbornly commited themselves to that failure.

Schermerhorn

3,997 posts

154 months

Monday 3rd May
quotequote all
Williams was on the decline well before Paddy Lowe signed on.

The depth of engineering is simply not there. That's what it all boils down to.

RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat

12,195 posts

60 months

Monday 3rd May
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
True...

But also vice-versa. We simply don't know who promised who what.

What we do know is that paddy was the headline signing, and as such the first to be blamed if it went wrong, at least so far as the media are concerned..

I don't personally believe he was the failing of the Williams team though! He was just 'there'... The team had already failed, and stubbornly commited themselves to that failure.
We also don't know whether Lowe was up to the job. It may be Williams couldn't have been helped by anybody. It might be that someone of sufficient capability could have avoided the failures Lowe suffered. We just don't know, it's purely conjecture.

Smollet

6,300 posts

155 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
e also don't know whether Lowe was up to the job. It may be Williams couldn't have been helped by anybody. It might be that someone of sufficient capability could have avoided the failures Lowe suffered. We just don't know, it's purely conjecture.
I just don’t think he was up to the job. Out of his depth tbh but in the right environment could be a useful asset

rider73

1,365 posts

42 months

Tuesday
quotequote all

errr this is the same Paddy Lowe that was at McLaren for 20 years and Mercedes for 4 , both of who were extremely successful with him on board....