Williams F1

[skwdenyer]

TheDeuce said:

shirt said:

Assuming the tub is indeed carried over from last year where do you think the lions share of the ‘3second’ deficit can be made up?

Williams have the shortest wheelbase iirc So the aero disadvantage there will remain.

Would taking the merc gearbox help? Lowe seemed to be the main force behind keeping the in house ally unit which still seems an odd decision.

Sticking with the ally box in a CF world is weird, although it could simply be down to the fact that Williams make their own, and they seem intent on making everything in-house that they possibly can. Also perhaps intent on not taking steps closer to being seen as a mercedes b-team.

As for the 3 seconds.. I think it's not that the car is absolutely 3 seconds off the pace, but rather it's unpredictable handling means the drivers can't realistically do the fastest laps that the car can theoretically manage - for risk of it letting go unexpectedly. Both drivers last year had strange offs/snaps.

If you're not confident in the car, you kind of have to drive it assuming it will let you down if you prod it too hard. Confidence is probably worth about half of the deficit we saw. Kubica made a few comments along those lines for sure.

Also a factor is the 'no driving over kerbs' saga. The reason the other drivers do it is to save time.. If you're not allowed to to do the same, you lose out.

Their public rationale was that the cost involved in producing a CF gearbox was not matched by the potential gains.

[TheDeuce]

skwdenyer said:

Their public rationale was that the cost involved in producing a CF gearbox was not matched by the potential gains.

They could have had Mercedes carbon box though. I can understand the cost aspect of developing their own, but there was one available.

Claire said it was because they didn't want further collaboration with another team beyond the necessity of needing an engine. And then Paddy seemed to broadly repeat that same rhetoric - I don't recall he gave any technical justification for the decision.

Possibly they were happy to wing it by sticking with their own gearbox in anticipation of standard boxes in 2021 - but that idea was scrapped earlier this year..

[Piginapoke]

TheDeuce said:

They could have had Mercedes carbon box though. I can understand the cost aspect of developing their own, but there was one available.

Claire said it was because they didn't want further collaboration with another team beyond the necessity of needing an engine. And then Paddy seemed to broadly repeat that same rhetoric - I don't recall he gave any technical justification for the decision.

Possibly they were happy to wing it by sticking with their own gearbox in anticipation of standard boxes in 2021 - but that idea was scrapped earlier this year..

Williams want to retain the capability to make the whole car, and don’t want to rely on Merc or any other manufacturer, figuring at some point they will leave the sport.

The trouble with this is that you employ far more people than your competition, and have less resources to invest in aero, the bit that makes the car go faster

[Piginapoke]

Petrus1983 said:

I did wonder! Thanks

Apologies, it was early!

Adrian Newey’s book is well worth a read. The March 881 was a properly game changing concept, his approach to it was fascinating

[sgtBerbatov]

TheDeuce said:

That's the point I always come back to. The team is huge, budget farcical.

What I don't understand is how having so many people doesn't translate in to performance.

I can answer this.

Have you ever been to Birmingham? We have the biggest council in europe and it's worn like a badge of honour. Except nothing ever gets done, costs a bomb, and theres never enough money. There's a bin that's been smashed up since before christmas next to a bus stop here, and it still hasn't been fixed. But they're more than happy to put up daft signs for a ULEZ zone for an area of the city that you can't help but go through if you need to get to the Motorway.

Williams is effectively Birmingham City Council in terms of the huge staff numbers and inefficiency of their work.

[TheDeuce]

sgtBerbatov said:

I can answer this.

Have you ever been to Birmingham? We have the biggest council in europe and it's worn like a badge of honour. Except nothing ever gets done, costs a bomb, and theres never enough money. There's a bin that's been smashed up since before christmas next to a bus stop here, and it still hasn't been fixed. But they're more than happy to put up daft signs for a ULEZ zone for an area of the city that you can't help but go through if you need to get to the Motorway.

Williams is effectively Birmingham City Council in terms of the huge staff numbers and inefficiency of their work.

I certainly have experience of committee culture taking a simple job and breaking it down in to 17 less simple jobs, before delivering a result that is somehow weaker than the sum of its parts! Not sure exactly how much common ground their is between Williams and Birmingham council in that regard, but it's not a stretch to look at the size of Williams, the quality of their output, and imagine that efficiency needs improving.

It's very hard to keep the structure and management of any business fluid enough to move with the times though, more true than ever if the budget drops sharply, unexpectedly. I'm sure they must struggle to translate a team that was effective 'back in the day' to one that now needs to work towards far lower targets with less resource. Especially if they do, as Piginapoke suggests in regard to making their own gearbox, wish to retain the operations and abilities of a top team whilst competing as back runners.

The problem is that if a business goes too far down the wrong route, money becomes so tight that there is no wriggle room to effect change. All very well people saying they need to sack off a load of staff - realistically they probably do. But in a single years balance sheet the cost of making people redundant is typically greater than keeping them for that year. If a business is already hand-to-mouth budget wise, the sensible options are often not viable. That's the big question for me, has the pendulum already swung too far at Williams? Are they now essentially trapped making something work the way it is, even if it no longer fits?

[Tyre Smoke]

I didn't realise they still made their own gearbox. That smacks of either head in the sand or plain obstinacy on behalf of Frank. The obvious choice is to take the Merc box. It's already paired to the engine. That immediately frees up masses of R+D bodies, and manufacturing. The people can either be let go or put to work on aero or finding more pace. It's not like they've not had a plethora of different engines over the years, just take the box that comes with it. Swap the cogs about if you must, but it's going to save a vast amount of budget.

It's a no brainer. Adapt and survive or die like the dinosaurs.

[TheDeuce]

Tyre Smoke said:

I didn't realise they still made their own gearbox. That smacks of either head in the sand or plain obstinacy on behalf of Frank. The obvious choice is to take the Merc box. It's already paired to the engine. That immediately frees up masses of R+D bodies, and manufacturing. The people can either be let go or put to work on aero or finding more pace. It's not like they've not had a plethora of different engines over the years, just take the box that comes with it. Swap the cogs about if you must, but it's going to save a vast amount of budget.

It's a no brainer. Adapt and survive or die like the dinosaurs.

They've been pretty vocal about their determination to NOT diminish their status as fully fledged constructors. I would say it's clear to anyone with two minutes and a calculator that they can no longer afford those principals. I honestly don't see it changing though, even if it sinks them.

The team itself would survive, Frank and Claire are ultimately gambling on their own future in the sport if the finances collapse and the team has to be sold. If they don't want to be involved unless they're running a team that meets their ideals, then fair enough I suppose. I can understand that.. they might lose the team due to having very fixed ideas about how the team should operate, but one could argue Frank only built the team in the first place by being just as determined and commited.

[Tyre Smoke]

Granted.

But that is a very bizarre stance to take. An engine and gearbox hardly detracts from it being a Williams.

If that is truly how they are running things, then they are going to go under. I'm surprised they haven't already.

Whether F1 allows the team to fold and disappear is another entity altogether. Because I really can't see Frank selling up to anyone and losing the name.

[TheDeuce]

Tyre Smoke said:

Granted.

But that is a very bizarre stance to take. An engine and gearbox hardly detracts from it being a Williams.

If that is truly how they are running things, then they are going to go under. I'm surprised they haven't already.

Whether F1 allows the team to fold and disappear is another entity altogether. Because I really can't see Frank selling up to anyone and losing the name.

According to Claire it's more about not extending their collaboration with Mercedes. I don't know why such a collaboration would be a bad thing - it's not as if Mercedes want to snoop around and steal Williams secrets.. I agree completely that a gearbox mated to an engine it was designed in tandem with does seem like a no brainer.

If the finances collapse, Frank will have to sell his shares or put the team into administration, and then the administrators would sell it - that would be unavoidable at a certain point. Will they actually get to that point? That's something we can only speculate on. It doesn't look promising though and the rhetoric suggests Frank/Claire are steadfast when it comes to how they want the team to operate.

[Tyre Smoke]

We all know Claire is daddy's mouthpiece and only doing what she is doing because daddy is too old/infirm/can't be bothered to travel around the world with the team.
I suspect they fear that if they are not there 'in charge' then the team won't operate as they dema6it should. And perhaps people will look to jump ship/paddock talk/ have their secrets stolen.
They talk the talk like they are still a big name with big clout, and they probably believe that, but they are increasingly looking like HRT or Super Aguri.

[TheDeuce]

Tyre Smoke said:

We all know Claire is daddy's mouthpiece and only doing what she is doing because daddy is too old/infirm/can't be bothered to travel around the world with the team.
I suspect they fear that if they are not there 'in charge' then the team won't operate as they dema6it should. And perhaps people will look to jump ship/paddock talk/ have their secrets stolen.
They talk the talk like they are still a big name with big clout, and they probably believe that, but they are increasingly looking like HRT or Super Aguri.

I think it's fair enough they have 'TP' presence at the races - it would be weird if they didn't, and Frank realistically can't do that bit anymore - I have always been quite understanding of why Claire was the best way for him to retain control, without running around himself anymore. I would even go as far as to say she appears happy to play that role too. She's not just a puppet either, no doubt she does have some significant influence and ideas in her own right, she must do after a few years in the hot seat. I'm not saying she's a natural at it!! But she's probably the best person to project whatever Frank thinks and wishes.

Aside from the other issues already discussed at length, if Frank wants to keep running the show, Claire is his best bet at making that practical.

[DanielSan]

Tyre Smoke said:

Granted.

But that is a very bizarre stance to take. An engine and gearbox hardly detracts from it being a Williams.

If that is truly how they are running things, then they are going to go under. I'm surprised they haven't already.

Whether F1 allows the team to fold and disappear is another entity altogether. Because I really can't see Frank selling up to anyone and losing the name.

Even with the whole bizarre gearbox/constructor thing aside, theyve been getting the basics wrong since before the V6 era began, when was the last William's with a genuinely good aero package? They get away with it when the new power units came in because the Merc was an absolute rocket. As soon as Ferrari/Renault got within 20-30bhp they've fallen down the grid as pretty much every other team had a car that worked better

[TheDeuce]

DanielSan said:

Even with the whole bizarre gearbox/constructor thing aside, theyve been getting the basics wrong since before the V6 era began, when was the last William's with a genuinely good aero package? They get away with it when the new power units came in because the Merc was an absolute rocket. As soon as Ferrari/Renault got within 20-30bhp they've fallen down the grid as pretty much every other team had a car that worked better

The last 2 cars haven't just not been good in terms of aero though, I think it's fair to say they've been actively bad. And all that time they've been selling 'aero trickery' via WAE to other industries. The mind boggles as to why they can't seem to apply the knowledge to their own car in a more effective way. I'm not suggesting they have the resources to do the job as well as the top teams these days, but at least they should be able to put out an average car in terms of down force and aero efficiency, or a car that is designed to be particularly good on a handful of circuits.

Claire keeps going on about how difficult it's been for her and the team.. so pick your battles, focus on where you can be strong. Give the fans and sponsors 'something'. Surely 700 people can collectively manage something positive to show the world!?

[Teddy Lop]

TheDeuce said:

If the finances collapse, Frank will have to sell his shares or put the team into administration, and then the administrators would sell it - that would be unavoidable at a certain point. Will they actually get to that point? That's something we can only speculate on. It doesn't look promising though and the rhetoric suggests Frank/Claire are steadfast when it comes to how they want the team to operate.

What is the team worth beyond its assets now?

If anyone wants to enter formula 1 and doesn't mind being the slowest car on the grid they wouldn't need to spend whatever frank williams probably values his team at.

[TheDeuce]

Teddy Lop said:

TheDeuce said:

If the finances collapse, Frank will have to sell his shares or put the team into administration, and then the administrators would sell it - that would be unavoidable at a certain point. Will they actually get to that point? That's something we can only speculate on. It doesn't look promising though and the rhetoric suggests Frank/Claire are steadfast when it comes to how they want the team to operate.

What is the team worth beyond its assets now?

If anyone wants to enter formula 1 and doesn't mind being the slowest car on the grid they wouldn't need to spend whatever frank williams probably values his team at.

It's worth a lot as it's a functional team (in spite of some dodgy designs/choices - the team exists and functions fairly reliably). Year one for the new owners would be tricky for sure, but once they have the organisation understood/sorted out and providing they have the funds to bankroll it for that first and then second year, it could be righted again. Or perhaps more likely, they could quickly be re-modelled into a very effective if somewhat unwilling b-team. I bet Mercedess would be interested, assuming they really do intend to remain in the sport. They're the only team without a de-facto b-team that they can exert some influence over, and that is going to be pretty crucial to any team looking for a post 2021 advantage.

I would say as with previous teams that have been sold, it's worth a lot simply because it cheaper/quicker than setting a new team up from scratch.

History also provides a warning though - you can't run the team into the ground too hard for too long as in the end you really do start to erode value, talent leaves for other teams etc, the mood becomes despondent and the creditors ramp up pressure. Caterham ended up being sold for £1!

[CoolHands]

An ally gearbox isn’t automatically ‘bad’. The advantages of cf box might only be minimal. And they would have had to pay for that too, so savings compared with not making their own might not be high.

[thegreenhell]

CoolHands said:

An ally gearbox isn’t automatically ‘bad’. The advantages of cf box might only be minimal. And they would have had to pay for that too, so savings compared with not making their own might not be high.

Someone on one of the F1 technincal forums suggested that a CF gearbox would cost £12M to develop and save about 5kg over a titanium one. Obviously, buying in a Mercedes one would cost less than £12M, but they would lose control of the design and also be at the whim of Mercedes for things like suspension mounting points, which would naturally only suit the Mercedes unless you also bought the whole Mercedes rear end, which might then not suit the preferred design philosophy of the rest of the car.

It's not as simple as just buying a gearbox and bolting it on.

[TheDeuce]

thegreenhell said:

CoolHands said:

An ally gearbox isn’t automatically ‘bad’. The advantages of cf box might only be minimal. And they would have had to pay for that too, so savings compared with not making their own might not be high.

Someone on one of the F1 technincal forums suggested that a CF gearbox would cost £12M to develop and save about 5kg over a titanium one. Obviously, buying in a Mercedes one would cost less than £12M, but they would lose control of the design and also be at the whim of Mercedes for things like suspension mounting points, which would naturally only suit the Mercedes unless you also bought the whole Mercedes rear end, which might then not suit the preferred design philosophy of the rest of the car.

It's not as simple as just buying a gearbox and bolting it on.

I think it's something like £400k for the Merc box (per box) - can't find the source, maybe someone will correct me but that's the figure that sticks in mind.

Fair point about the mounting points etc. There will be pros and cons I'm sure, expense being one of them (although maintaining the staff and facilities to produce their own will also have a significant cost). They are however the only car on the grid that still uses an ally/titanium box, so very much against the tide. I'm thinking there must therefore be other benefits to a CF box beyond the relatively modest weight saving.

[skwdenyer]

TheDeuce said:

The last 2 cars haven't just not been good in terms of aero though, I think it's fair to say they've been actively bad. And all that time they've been selling 'aero trickery' via WAE to other industries. The mind boggles as to why they can't seem to apply the knowledge to their own car in a more effective way. I'm not suggesting they have the resources to do the job as well as the top teams these days, but at least they should be able to put out an average car in terms of down force and aero efficiency, or a car that is designed to be particularly good on a handful of circuits.

Claire keeps going on about how difficult it's been for her and the team.. so pick your battles, focus on where you can be strong. Give the fans and sponsors 'something'. Surely 700 people can collectively manage something positive to show the world!?

The minimum level of aero capability to compete in F1 is a huge deal for much of the rest of the world. WAE can do great stuff for non-F1 clients without being at the pinnacle in F1 terms.

There’s a school of thought that says that - especially with the resource caps - one simply *cannot* iterate to the sharp end in F1, because (never mind money) wind tunnels and CFD are rule-constrained. One instead needs people who “get it” at an almost visceral level.

Back in the day it was said there were only two people who truly understood F1 cars - Adrian Newey and Gordon Murray. Bear in mind the person who told me that was Ed Wood, recently departed Chief Designer at Williams... There are undoubtedly more of those people now, but it isn’t as simple as working harder. Just like drivers, the last few percent is the differentiator.