Williams F1

[TheDeuce]

sgtBerbatov said:

Fortitude said:

TheDeuce said:

Thanks, I enjoyed the skim/read through (I'm still at work), although as interesting as it was it also renewed my sadness and frustration at the current Williams situation. I know there has been 'progress' this year... But I think still the odds on likelihood is that 'Williams' won't really be 'Williams' for very much longer. None of what is current takes away from such a fantastic history though.

Deuce, it is ALWAYS about opinions, but this You Tube clip always resonates with me...

ITV Meridian Tonight : WilliamsF1 FW19 Car Launch (31-01-1997)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fej_hAO8xG4

The interview with Patrick Head is poignant, IMHO, very revealing... ...in some ways, IMHO, the slow decline was set in motion... ...the loss of Adrian Newey...

Sat as I am at my dining room table, listening to podcasts at a raised volume to drown out ignorant neighbours, I've been thinking about Adrian Newey a lot. I read his book, and it's as close to me as the saying goes: never meet your heroes. I thought he came across as a complete knobber in the book.

But I've got to listen to people like John Barnard and Gordon Murray, and I feel alone in thinking that there's a hype train around Newey that - in my opinion - isn't as justified as what it's made out to be. People talk about the decline at Williams starting when he left, and I think that's total bullshine. The decline starts when BMW left.

That's not to say Williams should've gone all in on a BMW partnership as they could've ended up in Sauber's position. Now Sauber have never recovered since BMW left, and I'd argue they were the worse for that partnership. But Williams haven't had the luxury of a works engine deal, and I often think that if the engine rules weren't as strict or as expensive as they are now, Williams would've been as well to court an engine manufacturer and work with them on a works basis that way. Less money spent on purchasing engines is more money spent on development of the car.

But this isn't the 90's anymore, I'm painfully aware of that. You've gotta piss with the cock you've got as they say.

Yeah.. I too would hold short of saying it was all down to Newey departing - although he is acknowledged by enough people as a true talent for me to not question it. The question is, why did he leave? What caused that, why was he not replaced with an equal (I don't buy that his car design skills are unique) and why did Williams not use their immense status at that time to bring in a whole raft of talent to keep them ahead? Surely once you've conquered the world, you need to put up powerful defenses to stop the world conquering you back!

For lots of reasons, none of which are prove-able, only my impressions.. To me Williams seem to have risen to the top and then become simply stubborn. They have since the heyday floundered and peaked and troughed on a generally downwards trend - bringing us to today, and the fact that the cars simply don't perform well enough to get the championship money and sponsor money to sustain the team. They say they're fully funded for this season and next... which I believe - but is irrelevant. That just means they can pay their bills and continue to roll out tweaked versions of the same bad car. They need serious money to improve and serious money to develop a strong 2022 car. They also need enough money to sustain that sort of development effort until the sponsors return. They also can't sell WAE more than once, which is surely a major chunk of their new found financial stability-ish.

I've said it endless times, they need to change tack and operate in F1 in a cheaper and also more effective way, by forming a new partnership on some level, become a 'b team', by any other name. I know Williams hate that idea to the point it's not seen as an option... But it need not be forever and the improved performance it could bring could at least bring enough money back to Williams for them to have a future at some point more along the lines of how they want to operate. Refusing that route at this stage seems likely to force them to sell a controlling stake of the team in the not too distant future, so in my view they're being stubborn about surrendering some of their independence - at the risk of losing the team altogether. That is pretty stubborn behavior.

[anonymous-user]

TheDeuce said:

Yeah.. I too would hold short of saying it was all down to Newey departing - although he is acknowledged by enough people as a true talent for me to not question it. The question is, why did he leave?

He wanted equity in the business, Frank and Patrick didn't want to give it to him. At the time Patrick was still heavily involved in the design team, Adrian was traditionally an Aero man.

The same issue hit McLaren, Adrian very nearly left to join his friend Bobby Rahal at Jaguar, they had an agreement, but Ron convinced him to stay, only for Adrian to leave for a much better deal at Red Bull later on. That screwed over Jaguar F1, they never recovered.

Red Bull's drop in performance has coincided with Adrian taking a step back, he wanted to leave the F1 side of Red Bull and effectively handed the design over to his team whilst he played with Yaught design.

The job of a technical director is now far more about organising and maximising a team of engineers, Mercedes went further in this aspect than any other team, having more heads of departments under the guidance of the tech director. The days of one designer coming up with the goods are long gone.

Same thing is currently happening with McLaren, they now have a team principle who is a great organiser with experience of a similar project philosophy via Porsche's Le Mans hybrid project.

[TheDeuce]

jsf said:

TheDeuce said:

Yeah.. I too would hold short of saying it was all down to Newey departing - although he is acknowledged by enough people as a true talent for me to not question it. The question is, why did he leave?

He wanted equity in the business, Frank and Patrick didn't want to give it to him. At the time Patrick was still heavily involved in the design team, Adrian was traditionally an Aero man.

The same issue hit McLaren, Adrian very nearly left to join his friend Bobby Rahal at Jaguar, they had an agreement, but Ron convinced him to stay, only for Adrian to leave for a much better deal at Red Bull later on. That screwed over Jaguar F1, they never recovered.

Red Bull's drop in performance has coincided with Adrian taking a step back, he wanted to leave the F1 side of Red Bull and effectively handed the design over to his team whilst he played with Yaught design.

The job of a technical director is now far more about organising and maximising a team of engineers, Mercedes went further in this aspect than any other team, having more heads of departments under the guidance of the tech director. The days of one designer coming up with the goods are long gone.

Same thing is currently happening with McLaren, they now have a team principle who is a great organiser with experience of a similar project philosophy via Porsche's Le Mans hybrid project.

I quite agree with all of that - on the basis it's been very evident at Mercedes, in fact Toto lectures on the principals of leaders being curators of the general human effort, not dictators of it.

I suppose the question becomes, why did Frank with all his youthful wisdom not realise that in a changing world, a different approach to how to extract the best from people could be valuable? Mercedes, under Toto, have the highest staff appreciation and happiness levels of any team.. It was around 80% I think - a figure Claire heard when interviewed by Rosberg and sounded genuinely shocked by.

It's likely that Toto will one day be revered as a great leader of F1 success - and in his own words... He doesn't understand very much about the car. He knows how to get the finest from those that do, which is all that matters. Williams seem not to have that ability.

[anonymous-user]

TheDeuce said:

I suppose the question becomes, why did Frank with all his youthful wisdom not realise that in a changing world, a different approach to how to extract the best from people could be valuable?

Not everybody has the same skillset and times change faster than people's ability to do the same.

[TheDeuce]

RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:

TheDeuce said:

I suppose the question becomes, why did Frank with all his youthful wisdom not realise that in a changing world, a different approach to how to extract the best from people could be valuable?

Not everybody has the same skillset and times change faster than people's ability to do the same.

I agree, and that is only human - every dog has it's day, as they say. We all basically have the same problem as the world now is certainly evolving faster than history suggest any ageing human can keep pace with..

But Frank, and now Claire, do have a responsibility to 700+ staff in the team and also a responsibility to detect their own limitations. If they're not equipped to step into a bold new world, why not step back - sell? Or change and form a partnership that give the team a better chance?

I don't expect Frank to forever be the perfect person to run Williams, and/or via Claire. But I do think they have a basic responsibility to recognise as much themselves, if they cannot. Recognising that early on is surely better than damaging the team as an asset over multiple seasons and then at some point being forced to let go of it anyway.

[TheDeuce]

This from GR: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.russell...

I read through keen to see what the issue is that the headline suggests he has 'pin-pointed' be he concludes by saying the car is no use at following other cars and no one seems to know why...

The initial shortage of upgrade parts is reminiscent of last year too. That seems strange to me - other teams manage a much faster turn around of new parts and stock of spare parts. The raw material cost of the parts can't be that great, the cost is surely in fabrication hours and Williams have no shortage of people already on the payroll - no shortage of fabrication facilities either. Why is everything so slow to come out of the factory!?

[budgie smuggler]

TheDeuce said:

The raw material cost of the parts can't be that great, the cost is surely in fabrication hours and Williams have no shortage of people already on the payroll - no shortage of fabrication facilities either. Why is everything so slow to come out of the factory!?

Maybe there's a cashflow issue, i.e. they were previously reliant on credit with long invoice terms and those credit facilites have been removed after the profit warnings etc from the last two years.

[TheDeuce]

budgie smuggler said:

TheDeuce said:

The raw material cost of the parts can't be that great, the cost is surely in fabrication hours and Williams have no shortage of people already on the payroll - no shortage of fabrication facilities either. Why is everything so slow to come out of the factory!?

Maybe there's a cashflow issue, i.e. they were previously reliant on credit with long invoice terms and those credit facilites have been removed after the profit warnings etc from the last two years.

Maybe. One way or another they're funded to compete this year, which has to be in the region of £100m+ with all their operating costs. Seems odd that the comparatively modest cost of raw materials should be a struggle.

Perhaps there is some other bottleneck in the system that slows these things down for them compared to the rate at which other constructors push out new parts and spares.

[CallMeLegend]

TheDeuce said:

This from GR: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.russell...

I read through keen to see what the issue is that the headline suggests he has 'pin-pointed' be he concludes by saying the car is no use at following other cars and no one seems to know why...

The initial shortage of upgrade parts is reminiscent of last year too. That seems strange to me - other teams manage a much faster turn around of new parts and stock of spare parts. The raw material cost of the parts can't be that great, the cost is surely in fabrication hours and Williams have no shortage of people already on the payroll - no shortage of fabrication facilities either. Why is everything so slow to come out of the factory!?

Only one solution, bang it on pole, job done.

[TheDeuce]

CallMeLegend said:

Only one solution, bang it on pole, job done.

I'd love to see a quali session with so much drama that the 2020 Williams somehow ends up in P1

[budgie smuggler]

TheDeuce said:

Maybe. One way or another they're funded to compete this year, which has to be in the region of £100m+ with all their operating costs. Seems odd that the comparatively modest cost of raw materials should be a struggle.

Perhaps there is some other bottleneck in the system that slows these things down for them compared to the rate at which other constructors push out new parts and spares.

Yes but do you see what I was saying, that it's not necessarily the overall budget they have for the year but rather an issue of timing/cashflow?

It's a very different prospect using credit and paying £600 a month to sit in a range rover to buying one up front for £70K. Especially if you also had a debt outstanding with the dealer that you needed to clear first.

[Dermot O'Logical]

budgie smuggler said:

TheDeuce said:

Maybe. One way or another they're funded to compete this year, which has to be in the region of £100m+ with all their operating costs. Seems odd that the comparatively modest cost of raw materials should be a struggle.

Perhaps there is some other bottleneck in the system that slows these things down for them compared to the rate at which other constructors push out new parts and spares.

Yes but do you see what I was saying, that it's not necessarily the overall budget they have for the year but rather an issue of timing/cashflow?

It's a very different prospect using credit and paying £600 a month to sit in a range rover to buying one up front for £70K. Especially if you also had a debt outstanding with the dealer that you needed to clear first.

This is the correct answer. There are a limited number of carbon fibre (for example) suppliers, and if they won't supply any more on credit terms because the team's credit limits have been withdrawn and insist on old unpaid invoices being paid before they will release any further supplies, then cashflow will be hit, and no raw materials will be available.

[TheDeuce]

Dermot O'Logical said:

budgie smuggler said:

TheDeuce said:

Maybe. One way or another they're funded to compete this year, which has to be in the region of £100m+ with all their operating costs. Seems odd that the comparatively modest cost of raw materials should be a struggle.

Perhaps there is some other bottleneck in the system that slows these things down for them compared to the rate at which other constructors push out new parts and spares.

Yes but do you see what I was saying, that it's not necessarily the overall budget they have for the year but rather an issue of timing/cashflow?

It's a very different prospect using credit and paying £600 a month to sit in a range rover to buying one up front for £70K. Especially if you also had a debt outstanding with the dealer that you needed to clear first.

This is the correct answer. There are a limited number of carbon fibre (for example) suppliers, and if they won't supply any more on credit terms because the team's credit limits have been withdrawn and insist on old unpaid invoices being paid before they will release any further supplies, then cashflow will be hit, and no raw materials will be available.

I understand the principal - and I'm sure that following all the bad press and loss for the last accounting period some suppliers will reduce or deny credit to the team. But sourcing raw materials isn't really optional, it's crucial. A factory with 700 workers needs incoming materials.. Surely that would be one of the things that would be prioritised within the budget to ensure that work can actually continue.

I say surely but as we know this and last year, there have been extended delays and shortages of parts - so perhaps not. Or perhaps the situation is just so desperate that suppliers are holding them to ransom every step of the way. All just conjecture.

Whatever the reason though, it's really not great when a team can't keep a suitable supply of spare parts in F1. Last year it lead to the continuous 'no kerbs' instructions, which is the equivalent of telling a driver to go out there and just do 90% of their best effort...

[Dermot O'Logical]

The suppliers have businesses to run as well.

[anonymous-user]

If the choice is buy materials to build a car and put it on the grid or buy materials for spares and upgrades, guess what wins.

This is basics.

[Bonefish Blues]

TheDeuce said:

CallMeLegend said:

Only one solution, bang it on pole, job done.

I'd love to see a quali session with so much drama that the 2020 Williams somehow ends up in P1

I think Foinavon's more likely to be on pole

[TheDeuce]

jsf said:

If the choice is buy materials to build a car and put it on the grid or buy materials for spares and upgrades, guess what wins.

This is basics.

But without spare parts for both cars, if both collide during a practice session they're unable to enter both in to the race. That is an infringement of the concorde agreement and FIA rules.. Although I'm not sure what the penalty is - wouldn't surprise me if there was a very significant cost to the team if that were to happen though. A fairly sizable reduction in their championship money perhaps? Plus whatever no show clauses it may trigger in various sponsor agreements.

From that perspective having spares is not optional as such, it's a basic requirement and cost of competing in F1.

I'm actually surprised there isn't a minimum spare parts rule, simply to avoid cost saving in this area and the risk of a car not starting a race, simply because of a damaged wing etc.

[Flooble]

TheDeuce said:

But without spare parts for both cars, if both collide during a practice session they're unable to enter both in to the race. That is an infringement of the concorde agreement and FIA rules.. Although I'm not sure what the penalty is - wouldn't surprise me if there was a very significant cost to the team if that were to happen though. A fairly sizable reduction in their championship money perhaps? Plus whatever no show clauses it may trigger in various sponsor agreements.

From that perspective having spares is not optional as such, it's a basic requirement and cost of competing in F1.

I'm actually surprised there isn't a minimum spare parts rule, simply to avoid cost saving in this area and the risk of a car not starting a race, simply because of a damaged wing etc.

I would expect that if they had a smash like that they'd just say they couldn't repair the car in time. With the curfew limiting the hours available for the mechanics to work, it's not impossible for them to "discover" an oil leak too late to complete an engine change, for example.

[Dermot O'Logical]

Flooble said:

TheDeuce said:

But without spare parts for both cars, if both collide during a practice session they're unable to enter both in to the race. That is an infringement of the concorde agreement and FIA rules.. Although I'm not sure what the penalty is - wouldn't surprise me if there was a very significant cost to the team if that were to happen though. A fairly sizable reduction in their championship money perhaps? Plus whatever no show clauses it may trigger in various sponsor agreements.

From that perspective having spares is not optional as such, it's a basic requirement and cost of competing in F1.

I'm actually surprised there isn't a minimum spare parts rule, simply to avoid cost saving in this area and the risk of a car not starting a race, simply because of a damaged wing etc.

I would expect that if they had a smash like that they'd just say they couldn't repair the car in time. With the curfew limiting the hours available for the mechanics to work, it's not impossible for them to "discover" an oil leak too late to complete an engine change, for example.

Surely they could claim "Force Majeure"

[TheDeuce]

Dermot O'Logical said:

Flooble said:

TheDeuce said:

But without spare parts for both cars, if both collide during a practice session they're unable to enter both in to the race. That is an infringement of the concorde agreement and FIA rules.. Although I'm not sure what the penalty is - wouldn't surprise me if there was a very significant cost to the team if that were to happen though. A fairly sizable reduction in their championship money perhaps? Plus whatever no show clauses it may trigger in various sponsor agreements.

From that perspective having spares is not optional as such, it's a basic requirement and cost of competing in F1.

I'm actually surprised there isn't a minimum spare parts rule, simply to avoid cost saving in this area and the risk of a car not starting a race, simply because of a damaged wing etc.

I would expect that if they had a smash like that they'd just say they couldn't repair the car in time. With the curfew limiting the hours available for the mechanics to work, it's not impossible for them to "discover" an oil leak too late to complete an engine change, for example.

Surely they could claim "Force Majeure"

I wouldn't be so sure. Accidents in F1 are predictable and are part of the sport.. Not having at least one set of the most likely spare parts for each car is pushing ones luck imo. Last season at times they didn't even have two spare wings... they were obviously very worried about damage putting them in a position where they would not be able to field two cars, hence they were issuing absolute instructions to avoid kerbs - it's not great when telling their drivers to effectively NOT take the competitive line is the lesser of two evils..

Actually the delay on spares bridged race weekends sometimes, so damage at one weekend could potentially have left them unable to field both cars the following weekend too. Try claiming Force Majeure in that instance..

Going back to the core problem, if it really is cash/cashflow interfering with the supply of raw materials - is there any reason the team couldn't bring on a materials supplier (or a couple) as sponsors in return for a supply of materials on an 'as required' basis and preferential lead times etc? There is space on the car for more sponsors and I could see it having some appeal to such suppliers. Or would that be a conflict because they no doubt supply multiple teams?

In the end I just don't accept that it's reasonable to go racing in F1 without a realistic minimum level of spare parts, there must be some way of solving whatever the cause is for that situation. Hopefully this season it has been addressed in some way, in fairness there could be sensible reasons for not having the upgrades ready for both cars at the same time last race.

Edited by TheDeuce on Thursday 23 July 10:22