Gasley - What's gone wrong?
Discussion
TheDeuce said:
The only facts are:
1) He negotiated - so he was open to staying.
2) He left - so not 'everything' he wanted could have been offered as a single package. Otherwise why spend months negotiating in the first place? You wouldn't do that and then walk away if in the end they said yes to everything you wanted.
The only third way is that Renault somehow showed him something amazing that they have cunningly kept hidden from race weekends since, or perhaps - lovely chap as he is - he's a screwdriver short of a toolkit. Doesn't seem that way to me though, he seems like the guy that takes time out and really thinks his options through.
Or the fourth way - the interview (I forget where) where he said that the way the team handled the Baku incident was the moment he realised that it was Max's team, that he would never be treated in the team as his equal, and that he had to leave if he was going to progress his career. He had to take a chance on doing something different.1) He negotiated - so he was open to staying.
2) He left - so not 'everything' he wanted could have been offered as a single package. Otherwise why spend months negotiating in the first place? You wouldn't do that and then walk away if in the end they said yes to everything you wanted.
The only third way is that Renault somehow showed him something amazing that they have cunningly kept hidden from race weekends since, or perhaps - lovely chap as he is - he's a screwdriver short of a toolkit. Doesn't seem that way to me though, he seems like the guy that takes time out and really thinks his options through.
What went wrong?
He is up against the future dominant driver of F1 who is wholly suported by red bull. Gasly hasn't yet accepted that he is not as good as Max. If he did he'd get better results. I suspect that anyone with limited experience but has been labelled as having potential would fall short of beating Max. It is a poisoned chalice that No2 seat at red bull.
He is up against the future dominant driver of F1 who is wholly suported by red bull. Gasly hasn't yet accepted that he is not as good as Max. If he did he'd get better results. I suspect that anyone with limited experience but has been labelled as having potential would fall short of beating Max. It is a poisoned chalice that No2 seat at red bull.
thegreenhell said:
TheDeuce said:
The only facts are:
1) He negotiated - so he was open to staying.
2) He left - so not 'everything' he wanted could have been offered as a single package. Otherwise why spend months negotiating in the first place? You wouldn't do that and then walk away if in the end they said yes to everything you wanted.
The only third way is that Renault somehow showed him something amazing that they have cunningly kept hidden from race weekends since, or perhaps - lovely chap as he is - he's a screwdriver short of a toolkit. Doesn't seem that way to me though, he seems like the guy that takes time out and really thinks his options through.
Or the fourth way - the interview (I forget where) where he said that the way the team handled the Baku incident was the moment he realised that it was Max's team, that he would never be treated in the team as his equal, and that he had to leave if he was going to progress his career. He had to take a chance on doing something different.1) He negotiated - so he was open to staying.
2) He left - so not 'everything' he wanted could have been offered as a single package. Otherwise why spend months negotiating in the first place? You wouldn't do that and then walk away if in the end they said yes to everything you wanted.
The only third way is that Renault somehow showed him something amazing that they have cunningly kept hidden from race weekends since, or perhaps - lovely chap as he is - he's a screwdriver short of a toolkit. Doesn't seem that way to me though, he seems like the guy that takes time out and really thinks his options through.
Christian has a very different way of speaking to his fastest driver compared to the second fastest... even if the second fastest is actually being more successful. He values pure speed and can't hide it.
He's very enthusiastic and shows his emotions when his favourite does well. He's more formal and a bit more patronising when the other guy does the good job... a bit more "Good effort, son", and will often go on to express regret that his favourite had suffered some kind of problem that kept them from doing even better.
He was like that with Seb and Webber, (in Seb's favour), then with Dan and Seb (in Dan's favour) and then with Dan and Max. Even if it doesn't translate to mechanical or strategy preferences between the two drivers, if one notices or just thinks that the other driver is simply preferred more, it will become a team they don't want to be in, and a team they feel they have an unsteady future in.
Jerry Can said:
What went wrong?
He is up against the future dominant driver of F1 who is wholly suported by red bull. Gasly hasn't yet accepted that he is not as good as Max. If he did he'd get better results. I suspect that anyone with limited experience but has been labelled as having potential would fall short of beating Max. It is a poisoned chalice that No2 seat at red bull.
Historically Red Bull do support one driver over the other even if the one they are supporting is losing. If you're not the favourite child it must be a soul destroying place to work.He is up against the future dominant driver of F1 who is wholly suported by red bull. Gasly hasn't yet accepted that he is not as good as Max. If he did he'd get better results. I suspect that anyone with limited experience but has been labelled as having potential would fall short of beating Max. It is a poisoned chalice that No2 seat at red bull.
A shot across the bows from Marko;
Marko said:
Gasly has not yet met our expectations, we are now trying to help him
We are now changing many things, adapting and helping him, but now Gasly has to deliver.
He was always looking for the mistake in the car, in the chassis. We checked it, there was nothing.
Our position now is to support him in the best possible way. He now gets Max's set-up from the start because Max is more experienced, and also has the more experienced engineering team.
Within this given set-up he is allowed to play around so that it fits his driving style, but he's not supposed to dramatically move away from that.
Before that he experimented a lot and jumped from one extreme to the other.
It went wrong from the beginning, with the two crashes in Barcelona
He was already insecure then. When he is in free air, there are always good laptimes but the overall package is not right.
We are now changing many things, adapting and helping him, but now Gasly has to deliver.
He was always looking for the mistake in the car, in the chassis. We checked it, there was nothing.
Our position now is to support him in the best possible way. He now gets Max's set-up from the start because Max is more experienced, and also has the more experienced engineering team.
Within this given set-up he is allowed to play around so that it fits his driving style, but he's not supposed to dramatically move away from that.
Before that he experimented a lot and jumped from one extreme to the other.
It went wrong from the beginning, with the two crashes in Barcelona
He was already insecure then. When he is in free air, there are always good laptimes but the overall package is not right.
HustleRussell said:
A shot across the bows from Marko;
Ah, the old Marko vote of confidence. Gasly's toast.Marko said:
Gasly has not yet met our expectations, we are now trying to help him
We are now changing many things, adapting and helping him, but now Gasly has to deliver.
He was always looking for the mistake in the car, in the chassis. We checked it, there was nothing.
Our position now is to support him in the best possible way. He now gets Max's set-up from the start because Max is more experienced, and also has the more experienced engineering team.
Within this given set-up he is allowed to play around so that it fits his driving style, but he's not supposed to dramatically move away from that.
Before that he experimented a lot and jumped from one extreme to the other.
It went wrong from the beginning, with the two crashes in Barcelona
He was already insecure then. When he is in free air, there are always good laptimes but the overall package is not right.
We are now changing many things, adapting and helping him, but now Gasly has to deliver.
He was always looking for the mistake in the car, in the chassis. We checked it, there was nothing.
Our position now is to support him in the best possible way. He now gets Max's set-up from the start because Max is more experienced, and also has the more experienced engineering team.
Within this given set-up he is allowed to play around so that it fits his driving style, but he's not supposed to dramatically move away from that.
Before that he experimented a lot and jumped from one extreme to the other.
It went wrong from the beginning, with the two crashes in Barcelona
He was already insecure then. When he is in free air, there are always good laptimes but the overall package is not right.
HustleRussell said:
A shot across the bows from Marko;
Says it all really - he's too inexperienced to find the right set-up. So the real problem is whoever made the decision to promote him up to the big team too soon. Helmut, I'm looking at you...Marko said:
Gasly has not yet met our expectations, we are now trying to help him
We are now changing many things, adapting and helping him, but now Gasly has to deliver.
He was always looking for the mistake in the car, in the chassis. We checked it, there was nothing.
Our position now is to support him in the best possible way. He now gets Max's set-up from the start because Max is more experienced, and also has the more experienced engineering team.
Within this given set-up he is allowed to play around so that it fits his driving style, but he's not supposed to dramatically move away from that.
Before that he experimented a lot and jumped from one extreme to the other.
It went wrong from the beginning, with the two crashes in Barcelona
He was already insecure then. When he is in free air, there are always good laptimes but the overall package is not right.
We are now changing many things, adapting and helping him, but now Gasly has to deliver.
He was always looking for the mistake in the car, in the chassis. We checked it, there was nothing.
Our position now is to support him in the best possible way. He now gets Max's set-up from the start because Max is more experienced, and also has the more experienced engineering team.
Within this given set-up he is allowed to play around so that it fits his driving style, but he's not supposed to dramatically move away from that.
Before that he experimented a lot and jumped from one extreme to the other.
It went wrong from the beginning, with the two crashes in Barcelona
He was already insecure then. When he is in free air, there are always good laptimes but the overall package is not right.
REALIST123 said:
To get back on topic, to be fair to Gasly, he was using the old wing. Max had the new one which made quite a difference.
Presumably they’ll both have that at Silverstone.
Max was also allowed by Honda to use qualifying mode for the last 11/12 laps. Which is interesting in itself.
To be fair to Max, there is a reason he gets priority sometimes.. Everything in F1 is earned at some point.Presumably they’ll both have that at Silverstone.
Max was also allowed by Honda to use qualifying mode for the last 11/12 laps. Which is interesting in itself.
On the other hand, for all we know RB weren't sure if the new wing would be better or not - they probably did have a good idea post FP, can't know for sure though.
Mr Pointy said:
Ah, the old Marko vote of confidence. Gasly's toast.
Yes. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, he's gone. I feel sorry for him, even he must have thought that after his success to date, the major team was a chance to excel and prove his talent - must be crushing to realise that no matter how hard you try, you're just never going to get the extra 5% that champions find. An end of the road moment mentally I guess.It is REALLY interesting for us though, as it means RB need a new driver. They already have one driver that on merit has taken the points lead from both Ferrari drivers. If they could get another driver even close to Max then they would likely have taken 2nd in the WCC this year and could likely manage that next year. That would be very valuable to RB so I expect the purse strings to loose when they start appealing to potential drivers for 2020. IE: So loose that no-one other than LH/CLC would be totally out of reach.
HustleRussell said:
Someone will pick Gasly up and put him in a less caustic environment- he’ll excel as he did at Toro Rosso, and it’ll be latest in a line of systematic driver mid-handlings for Red Bull.
He's already excelled in a lesser team. What can he prove by repeating that? What top team isn't caustic? In fact.. What race pressure for any driver in a top car isn't more pressure than anything a team can impose?If he can't stay at RB, then the other two won't want him either. So back to midfield, career kinda finished. Where else would you see him aiming for no matter how well he does in midfield?
I'm sorry if it upsets anyone - but the way I see it, he's not quite good enough for the step up he has taken. He earned the chance, he is very good - it's very harsh but it appears he is not quite good enough for the top tier. It's inevitable this sort of thing will happen in our sport, it doesn't mean it's wrong or that he's hard done by. It's just that he hasn't been able to justify the seat he is in. Nor have I at various things I have attempted, I'm sure we all have comparable memories of ambition over delivery.
TheDeuce said:
HustleRussell said:
Someone will pick Gasly up and put him in a less caustic environment- he’ll excel as he did at Toro Rosso, and it’ll be latest in a line of systematic driver mid-handlings for Red Bull.
He's already excelled in a lesser team. What can he prove by repeating that? What top team isn't caustic? In fact.. What race pressure for any driver in a top car isn't more pressure than anything a team can impose?If he can't stay at RB, then the other two won't want him either. So back to midfield, career kinda finished. Where else would you see him aiming for no matter how well he does in midfield?
I'm sorry if it upsets anyone - but the way I see it, he's not quite good enough for the step up he has taken. He earned the chance, he is very good - it's very harsh but it appears he is not quite good enough for the top tier. It's inevitable this sort of thing will happen in our sport, it doesn't mean it's wrong or that he's hard done by. It's just that he hasn't been able to justify the seat he is in. Nor have I at various things I have attempted, I'm sure we all have comparable memories of ambition over delivery.
Is that you, Marko?
I agree with groomi’s summation.
HustleRussell said:
TheDeuce said:
HustleRussell said:
Someone will pick Gasly up and put him in a less caustic environment- he’ll excel as he did at Toro Rosso, and it’ll be latest in a line of systematic driver mid-handlings for Red Bull.
He's already excelled in a lesser team. What can he prove by repeating that? What top team isn't caustic? In fact.. What race pressure for any driver in a top car isn't more pressure than anything a team can impose?If he can't stay at RB, then the other two won't want him either. So back to midfield, career kinda finished. Where else would you see him aiming for no matter how well he does in midfield?
I'm sorry if it upsets anyone - but the way I see it, he's not quite good enough for the step up he has taken. He earned the chance, he is very good - it's very harsh but it appears he is not quite good enough for the top tier. It's inevitable this sort of thing will happen in our sport, it doesn't mean it's wrong or that he's hard done by. It's just that he hasn't been able to justify the seat he is in. Nor have I at various things I have attempted, I'm sure we all have comparable memories of ambition over delivery.
Is that you, Marko?
I agree with groomi’s summation.
I agree with much of what you say on these forums.. but Gasly earned the chance he has had, and he has not delivered. Compare him to CLC for a reference point. Ferrari are effectively well within RB's sights next year if they get a second solid driver - that is what they demand and rightfully so.
If you disagree his career is basically finished, please at least do me the decency of suggesting why it is not. I'm perfectly capable of considering that I might be wrong sometimes, but if you think I am, at least offer your own theory.
I think the Red Bull is not an easy car to drive this year. I think they’re really pushing the envelope with setup in an effort to compensate for the slight power disadvantage the Honda still has. I don’t think the chassis / aero package is the best the team has produced in recent years either. I reckon Verstappen has the skill, experience and confidence to handle that situation. That confidence is infectious and Max’s now established team of engineers share it. His side of the garage are having a nice little love-in. Horner and Marko are on board and everybody feels warm and fuzzy.
Gasly cannot get the car to his liking and isn’t getting that rhythm and confidence.
Gasly is under-performing. Meanwhile, Max is flattering the car.
I think a 23 year old has a lot yet to learn about the sport. He has shown he has great pace elsewhere but it isn’t clicking this year.
Put Gasly in a Mercedes or Ferrari and he’ll be close to a team-mate because I reckon they are more user-friendly cars with less extreme setups.
I don’t think you can describe the environment for drivers at Mercedes in particular as caustic. As you say, a driver places a weight of expectation on themselves. However you don’t see Toto or Lauda coming out with anything like what Marko has been quoted as saying. That reads like a kiss of death.
Gasly cannot get the car to his liking and isn’t getting that rhythm and confidence.
Gasly is under-performing. Meanwhile, Max is flattering the car.
I think a 23 year old has a lot yet to learn about the sport. He has shown he has great pace elsewhere but it isn’t clicking this year.
Put Gasly in a Mercedes or Ferrari and he’ll be close to a team-mate because I reckon they are more user-friendly cars with less extreme setups.
I don’t think you can describe the environment for drivers at Mercedes in particular as caustic. As you say, a driver places a weight of expectation on themselves. However you don’t see Toto or Lauda coming out with anything like what Marko has been quoted as saying. That reads like a kiss of death.
Edited by HustleRussell on Friday 12th July 00:37
Also I find the Red Bull driver churn highly counter-productive as I believe they now find themselves with one superstar and three relative unknowns. They did have a reliable benchmark in Ricciardo but they fumbled him.
Kvyat is demoted, Sainz beats Gasly, Gasly matches Kvyat, both beat Hartley, Albon matches Kvyat... what does any of this mean? What has Red Bull learned from all of this? Very little, IMO, since they soon fumbled Sainz too.
I don’t want to call Marko ‘myopic’ but a better word doesn’t come to mind. Are these drivers all average, or are some of them excellent, and all are being systematically undermined by a culture of fear?
Kvyat is demoted, Sainz beats Gasly, Gasly matches Kvyat, both beat Hartley, Albon matches Kvyat... what does any of this mean? What has Red Bull learned from all of this? Very little, IMO, since they soon fumbled Sainz too.
I don’t want to call Marko ‘myopic’ but a better word doesn’t come to mind. Are these drivers all average, or are some of them excellent, and all are being systematically undermined by a culture of fear?
Edited by HustleRussell on Friday 12th July 00:35
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