What are Renault getting from F1?

What are Renault getting from F1?

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TheDeuce

Original Poster:

2,563 posts

10 months

Wednesday 31st July
quotequote all
Several years of effort in the current era of F1 and as manufacturer, Renault have been 'promoted' by showing generally middling results combined with unreliability that has had the likes of Red Bull (Horner and drivers) attack them publicly, repeatedly. At least there has been some progress in the right direction, up until this season, where the rest of the field seems to have moved upwards around a rather static Renault.

The reliability thing has to be an issue now surely? The other 3 PU suppliers are seriously solid so far - and in reality anyone who can afford a Renault can afford a Honda, or reach for a Merc. Clearly the road engines have no real link to the F1 PU's but the whole idea is that there is an inferred connection in many consumers mindset.

I wondered if it's an issue of national pride perhaps, that Renault must exist, and must be in F1 because F1 is somehow French..? Their government seemed swayed by this argument at least. I wonder how much national pride there can be though when they tune in to watch their home race and even the commentators are tut-tutting how it's the most boring weekend on the calendar. I appreciate the French commentators perhaps held back from such brutal honesty - but I'm lost as to what they could have found to celebrate.

So here's a challenge - can anyone profile the sort of person that would be more likely to buy a Renault car after watching a bit of F1? I can't. I'm sure it works fine for the other marques. I have no doubt Mclaren, Alfa, Ferrari & Mercedes all have references to F1 technology in their car brochures - which makes sense, they sell cars that at a stretch a consumer might think are somehow close enough to racey to pick up some benefit. Honda can benefit simply by being in the same price bracket as Renault but in F1 terms far quicker and less likely to break down.

The pressure on Cyril must be quite extraordinary this season - a lot of people must be questioning why the momentum of previous seasons has slowed/stopped this season. I personally think it is more to do with the rest of the field moving forwards faster - not that that's an excuse.

HustleRussell

16,684 posts

104 months

Wednesday 31st July
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
in reality anyone who can afford a Renault can afford a Honda, or reach for a Merc.
You think the Renault is cheaper than the others?

Also short memory, Renault made pretty terrific engines in the original turbo era and also smashed it in the V8 era with Red Bull.

They aren’t spending the money the big three are and targeted 4th this year. They’re currently under-performing but you have to keep it in context.

HardtopManual

1,215 posts

110 months

Wednesday 31st July
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They didn't expect the other PU manufacturers to scale up as much as they have. They aimed to be within 15% of Mercedes staffing levels - unfortunately, that was Mercedes staffing levels in 2015. Fast forward four years and Renault's PU department in Viry have just over half the payroll of AMG HPP. So, they find themselves unable to get what they wanted out of F1.

TheDeuce

Original Poster:

2,563 posts

10 months

Wednesday 31st July
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
TheDeuce said:
in reality anyone who can afford a Renault can afford a Honda, or reach for a Merc.
You think the Renault is cheaper than the others?

Also short memory, Renault made pretty terrific engines in the original turbo era and also smashed it in the V8 era with Red Bull.

They aren’t spending the money the big three are and targeted 4th this year. They’re currently under-performing but you have to keep it in context.
I think a Renault is definitely cheaper than the others except Honda, who they're on a par with - allowing for depreciation and as a result, the true price the cars leave the forecourts or lease for.

As for short memory - is that relevant when talking about what appeals to consumers? Consumers do have a short memory, they want a car that appears good today, irrespective of the past. I would have thought Renault would want some positives to come from the here and now of their F1 involvement, not from past era's in the sport. I think I am in context, in the context of my original post.

Edited by TheDeuce on Wednesday 31st July 22:16

TheDeuce

Original Poster:

2,563 posts

10 months

Wednesday 31st July
quotequote all
HardtopManual said:
They didn't expect the other PU manufacturers to scale up as much as they have. They aimed to be within 15% of Mercedes staffing levels - unfortunately, that was Mercedes staffing levels in 2015. Fast forward four years and Renault's PU department in Viry have just over half the payroll of AMG HPP. So, they find themselves unable to get what they wanted out of F1.
That's the thing - I think the investors and backers want to know that the future is predicted fairly accurately. Honda, for example, re-entered the sport (in a way) and have hit the ground running with a 2019 PU that is increasingly looking to have the potential to be up their with the best. Honda figured out what 2019 would demand. And of course, Ferrari/Mercedes both find ways to accurately gauge the level of play in upcoming seasons and make sure they're in the game.

The real problem is that their customer, McLaren, are almost doubling their points so far... How to explain that one? It's not as if they have a budget or staffing advantage and they don't have the luxury of designing their own PU. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Renault are taking public money and spending more on achieving less.

HustleRussell

16,684 posts

104 months

Wednesday 31st July
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
HustleRussell said:
TheDeuce said:
in reality anyone who can afford a Renault can afford a Honda, or reach for a Merc.
You think the Renault is cheaper than the others?

Also short memory, Renault made pretty terrific engines in the original turbo era and also smashed it in the V8 era with Red Bull.

They aren’t spending the money the big three are and targeted 4th this year. They’re currently under-performing but you have to keep it in context.
I think a Renault is definitely cheaper than the others except Honda, who they're on a par with - allowing for depreciation and as a result, the true price the cars leave the forecourts or lease for.

As for short memory - is that relevant when talking about what appeals to consumers? Consumers do have a short memory, they want a car that appears good today, irrespective of the past. I would have thought Renault would want some positives to come from the here and now of their F1 involvement, not from past era's in the sport. I think I am in context, in the context of my original post.
Pardon me, I was talking about F1.

ELUSIVEJIM

6,241 posts

95 months

Wednesday 31st July
quotequote all
Renault is never going to be a top F1 team unless there is a complete overhaul.

Ricciardo IMO has taken over from Alonso for picking the wrong team frown

Just hope he can get a drive at either Mercedes or Ferrari in the future.

Perhaps a year at Renault will have him begging Red Bull for his old seat.

HardtopManual

1,215 posts

110 months

Wednesday 31st July
quotequote all
Suggest picking up a copy of this month's F1 mag for more details on Renault's woes - and what they are planning next.

TheDeuce

Original Poster:

2,563 posts

10 months

Wednesday 31st July
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
Pardon me, I was talking about F1.
Me too. The business side of F1 though. A fairly chunky part of our sport!

TheDeuce

Original Poster:

2,563 posts

10 months

Wednesday 31st July
quotequote all
HardtopManual said:
Suggest picking up a copy of this month's F1 mag for more details on Renault's woes - and what they are planning next.
Can't pretend I will find the time to pick up a copy. Could you provide the general gist?

Andy S15

357 posts

71 months

Thursday 1st August
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I have been thinking this about Renault lately too. Massively underwhelming of late.

They obviously can't be that bad, RB won races last year with their power. So the PU cannot be inherently bad - it has potential, it's just the works team are for some reason no where near reaching that. It's probably a good job RB dropped them this year, else the works team would be the 3rd best Renault team. That'd be rather embarrassing.

I think the team is just in no mans land. They don't pump quite enough money in, they don't have quite enough staff, the car doesn't have quite enough performance. They either need to accept they must spend more on the project, or hang on till 2021. It does wind me up though how every year Cyril claims to be 'on target' or 'achieving their goals' despite constantly sitting mid pack. I don't really think they have made any significant improvements in the last 3 years, each year they seem to come back with a new concept which proceeds to under perform, then is claimed to be 'hitting targets'. The record is getting old now Cyril.

IMO, they need a new Team Principal to shake things up, or a significant cash injection.

I suppose, the fate of the F1 team probably hinges on their Renault Sport 'brand'. The fact they are operating at the pinnacle of motor sport, despite their results, at least legitimises their sales of performance models - of which Renault then obviously makes X amount of money. Without strong links to motor sport, maybe X wouldn't be high enough to justify the overall spend.

LaurasOtherHalf

15,255 posts

140 months

Thursday 1st August
quotequote all
I did often wonder if, as a customer team with no mechanical reputation to protect, Red Bull just used to turn the wick up anywhere they thought they might have a chance and not care a fig if the engine blew up.

Renault don’t seem to want to do that and run at safer levels to protect their brand image (yes I know they still get a lot of mechanical failures!).

markcoznottz

5,152 posts

168 months

Thursday 1st August
quotequote all
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Renault is never going to be a top F1 team unless there is a complete overhaul.

Ricciardo IMO has taken over from Alonso for picking the wrong team frown

Just hope he can get a drive at either Mercedes or Ferrari in the future.

Perhaps a year at Renault will have him begging Red Bull for his old seat.
Made the right move you mean. Was always going to be number 2 at red bull, and with lots of youngsters coming into the sport, what better than a works team contract , bank a st load of money, retire, do a bit of sports cars, sit on the beach. With a reputed but not confirmed $70m dollar deal, he'd be a fool not to.

dunc_sx

1,018 posts

141 months

Thursday 1st August
quotequote all
markcoznottz said:
Made the right move you mean.
yes

StevieBee

7,825 posts

199 months

Thursday 1st August
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
So here's a challenge - can anyone profile the sort of person that would be more likely to buy a Renault car after watching a bit of F1?
Renault enjoyed an 11% hike in UK sales during the period Mansell was winning with them. They also had a similar level of success in Spain during the Alonso years. The relationship between a buying decision and on-track success is not as straight forwards as 'watch a race - buy a car'. The benefit comes through demonstrating a unique difference. All cars within any class are largely the same; same spec, same price, same quality... so buyers are looking for reason to buy one car over another and if they happen to see that Renault or whoever are having some success in Motor Racing, then that may tip the balance. So in answer to your question; it's anyone in the market for a Renault sort of car whether or not they like F1.

Whilst success on track is proven to be effective in driving up sales, a lack fo success on track does not result in less sales. Sales of Honda product was completely unaffected during the McLaren years. This is because most car buyers aren't F1 fans but they do recognise it as a technically advanced endeavour so participation - regardless of results - is an attractive differentiator. Kia make very good cars but don't sell as many as Honda. If Kia were to enter F1, they still wouldn't sell as many cars as Honda but their sales would certainly increase.

So Renault still benefit from involvement in F1. They are one of the established brands associated with the sport over many decades and something that can be capitalised upon in the showroom.




REALIST123

11,582 posts

97 months

Thursday 1st August
quotequote all
markcoznottz said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Renault is never going to be a top F1 team unless there is a complete overhaul.

Ricciardo IMO has taken over from Alonso for picking the wrong team frown

Just hope he can get a drive at either Mercedes or Ferrari in the future.

Perhaps a year at Renault will have him begging Red Bull for his old seat.
Made the right move you mean. Was always going to be number 2 at red bull, and with lots of youngsters coming into the sport, what better than a works team contract , bank a st load of money, retire, do a bit of sports cars, sit on the beach. With a reputed but not confirmed $70m dollar deal, he'd be a fool not to.
Quite likely you’re right, he went for the money.

If it’s wins you want, you’re better off as a number two in a winning car, as Bottas has shown. Not much point moving to, at best on current form, a lower midfield car.

I didn’t heat anyone outside of Renault with any confidence that their plans to improve had any real substance, so I can’t see how DR could believe that to be the case, ergo he went for the money.

Unless the ‘21 changes prove to be a leveller, and there’s a chance that they will from what I’ve heard, I think we’ll see DR at Le Mans in ‘22, latest.

thegreenhell

6,012 posts

163 months

Thursday 1st August
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Honda, for example, re-entered the sport (in a way) and have hit the ground running with a 2019 PU that is increasingly looking to have the potential to be up their with the best.
The Honda is flattered by the Red Bull chassis. It isn't doing anything this year that the Renault hasn't done in the last few seasons - i.e. picking up a handful of wins and podiums when the others falter, but generally quite a way behind the Mercedes and often the Ferrari.

The only thing wrong with the Renault engine this year is that it isn't in one of the big-three teams' cars.

Deesee

2,606 posts

27 months

Thursday 1st August
quotequote all
It's a decent PU this year, now running on Par or better with Merc in Race Mode, Quali mode/Special Modes, somewhat down mind.

Red Bull may have been leading the championship in 2019, with that chassis and this PU (and Max & Dani).

TheDeuce

Original Poster:

2,563 posts

10 months

Thursday 1st August
quotequote all
StevieBee said:
TheDeuce said:
So here's a challenge - can anyone profile the sort of person that would be more likely to buy a Renault car after watching a bit of F1?
Renault enjoyed an 11% hike in UK sales during the period Mansell was winning with them. They also had a similar level of success in Spain during the Alonso years. The relationship between a buying decision and on-track success is not as straight forwards as 'watch a race - buy a car'. The benefit comes through demonstrating a unique difference. All cars within any class are largely the same; same spec, same price, same quality... so buyers are looking for reason to buy one car over another and if they happen to see that Renault or whoever are having some success in Motor Racing, then that may tip the balance. So in answer to your question; it's anyone in the market for a Renault sort of car whether or not they like F1.

Whilst success on track is proven to be effective in driving up sales, a lack fo success on track does not result in less sales. Sales of Honda product was completely unaffected during the McLaren years. This is because most car buyers aren't F1 fans but they do recognise it as a technically advanced endeavour so participation - regardless of results - is an attractive differentiator. Kia make very good cars but don't sell as many as Honda. If Kia were to enter F1, they still wouldn't sell as many cars as Honda but their sales would certainly increase.

So Renault still benefit from involvement in F1. They are one of the established brands associated with the sport over many decades and something that can be capitalised upon in the showroom.
I agree with all you have said - but it doesn't answer the question I actually asked. All you have said would stand true even if they weren't in F1, yet they are - which is why I asked what person would be 'more' likely to buy their cars following seeing them in F1.

I am aware that for many people there are various good reasons why a Renault is, in general, the car for them.

TheDeuce

Original Poster:

2,563 posts

10 months

Thursday 1st August
quotequote all
thegreenhell said:
The Honda is flattered by the Red Bull chassis. It isn't doing anything this year that the Renault hasn't done in the last few seasons - i.e. picking up a handful of wins and podiums when the others falter, but generally quite a way behind the Mercedes and often the Ferrari.

The only thing wrong with the Renault engine this year is that it isn't in one of the big-three teams' cars.
That and the fact it's proving unreliable still. Renault themselves have I think twice this season admitted reducing power due to known issues with stress on
specific internal components.

I'm not so sure the RB PU is 'quite a way' behind anymore. I think apples for apples it's a little behind. I also think it's show repeatedly that it has a good amount of headroom left to exploit, which I'm sure will be exploited for the second half of this season.

Whatever the finer details though... Ask 1000 people thinking of buying a new car to watch the races so far this season, and then ask each one which of the two engines they think is probably best. I think you will have more ticks for the Honda in such an exercise. And that's exactly the result that the marketing bods would want for their brand. Obviously, on this forum we see far deeper than the other 95% casual F1 viewers that just have a general gist of who makes what and who gets the most points/wins races.