New team...possibly...

New team...possibly...

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Discussion

Sixpackpert

Original Poster:

3,971 posts

160 months

Thursday 3rd October
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rdjohn

3,717 posts

141 months

2fast748

558 posts

141 months

Friday 4th October
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It was quite funny yesterday as news broke that a Spanish team was being mooted, then suddenly people said this was the second new team under construction then "F1" says NO!

We went from 1 to 2 to none in the space of a few hours, typical F1.

Munter

28,868 posts

187 months

Friday 4th October
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rdjohn said:
The more Ross Brawn says, the more I like his approach. I think it'd be crazy for a new team to join the same year as the new regulations. Have the year, see the changes the big existing teams cause, then think about joining in 2022 or later. Fools rush in etc.

Exige77

3,864 posts

137 months

Friday 4th October
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Munter said:
rdjohn said:
The more Ross Brawn says, the more I like his approach. I think it'd be crazy for a new team to join the same year as the new regulations. Have the year, see the changes the big existing teams cause, then think about joining in 2022 or later. Fools rush in etc.
Not sure I agree, best chance for new under funded teams is when the rules have just changed. Even big teams have no idea how new regs will own out.

By year two, the big teams will have started to sort themselves out. Think Brawn and double diffuser. Their advantage was short lived.

Munter

28,868 posts

187 months

Friday 4th October
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Exige77 said:
Munter said:
rdjohn said:
The more Ross Brawn says, the more I like his approach. I think it'd be crazy for a new team to join the same year as the new regulations. Have the year, see the changes the big existing teams cause, then think about joining in 2022 or later. Fools rush in etc.
Not sure I agree, best chance for new under funded teams is when the rules have just changed. Even big teams have no idea how new regs will own out.

By year two, the big teams will have started to sort themselves out. Think Brawn and double diffuser. Their advantage was short lived.
You're talking about the Honda (Brawn) that had a full works team develop it. Here we're talking about HRT/"Lotus"/Spyker being able to join and make a long term success of it which adds to the F1 show. They are not going to exploit any loop holes. They are going to struggle to build a car to the regs and turn up for testing...something even Williams failed at on both counts this year.

I think a new team will be on better ground in the 2nd year of the designs once the more obvious loop holes have been found and are known, or have been blocked off.

ajprice

16,531 posts

142 months

Friday 4th October
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If the regulations are going to be steady from 2021 to 2022, are there regulations against them building a 2021 car, testing it all through 2021 away from F1, then registering as a 2022 team and racing it?

Exige77

3,864 posts

137 months

Friday 4th October
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ajprice said:
If the regulations are going to be steady from 2021 to 2022, are there regulations against them building a 2021 car, testing it all through 2021 away from F1, then registering as a 2022 team and racing it?
You don’t know how good / bad your package is until the minute it’s up against the completion on track.

New teams also need sponsorship money, how long can they survive developing the car (paying everyone’s salary) without racing ?

TheDeuce

3,136 posts

12 months

Friday 4th October
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Exige77 said:
You don’t know how good / bad your package is until the minute it’s up against the completion on track.

New teams also need sponsorship money, how long can they survive developing the car (paying everyone’s salary) without racing ?
I suppose you could build an 'unofficial F1 car' and take it to some of the same circuits to benchmark it against the current seasons competitors cars. Before the company building the car registers as an official F1 team, the FIA has no control.

I think the FIA would be very much aware of the project as soon as the car started testing, and when the same outfit did want to form a team, the FIA could well consider that if it had been 'unofficially' tested the previous year, it still counts as testing in terms of the application to form a team, and could delay sanctioning them to race in F1 for a further year as a result. Even if they did allow it to slide, I would question how advantageous it would be to join F1 having already pissed off the sports governing body..

SturdyHSV

6,526 posts

113 months

Friday 4th October
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TheDeuce said:
I suppose you could build an 'unofficial F1 car' and take it to some of the same circuits to benchmark it against the current seasons competitors cars. Before the company building the car registers as an official F1 team, the FIA has no control.

I think the FIA would be very much aware of the project as soon as the car started testing, and when the same outfit did want to form a team, the FIA could well consider that if it had been 'unofficially' tested the previous year, it still counts as testing in terms of the application to form a team, and could delay sanctioning them to race in F1 for a further year as a result. Even if they did allow it to slide, I would question how advantageous it would be to join F1 having already pissed off the sports governing body..
It's an interesting idea, but the cars are also being constantly developed (at no small cost), so really you'd be taking part in the development race and to some extent incurring similar costs with shipping the car and parts and pit crews to tracks (and renting them for yourself), but with none of the money coming in. It'd be quite an undertaking, and if it turns out you have managed to develop a competitive car, wouldn't that car be better off actually competiting and earning for the team?

TheDeuce

3,136 posts

12 months

Friday 4th October
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SturdyHSV said:
TheDeuce said:
I suppose you could build an 'unofficial F1 car' and take it to some of the same circuits to benchmark it against the current seasons competitors cars. Before the company building the car registers as an official F1 team, the FIA has no control.

I think the FIA would be very much aware of the project as soon as the car started testing, and when the same outfit did want to form a team, the FIA could well consider that if it had been 'unofficially' tested the previous year, it still counts as testing in terms of the application to form a team, and could delay sanctioning them to race in F1 for a further year as a result. Even if they did allow it to slide, I would question how advantageous it would be to join F1 having already pissed off the sports governing body..
It's an interesting idea, but the cars are also being constantly developed (at no small cost), so really you'd be taking part in the development race and to some extent incurring similar costs with shipping the car and parts and pit crews to tracks (and renting them for yourself), but with none of the money coming in. It'd be quite an undertaking, and if it turns out you have managed to develop a competitive car, wouldn't that car be better off actually competiting and earning for the team?
Pretty much. At best it could be a small advantage for a 'money no object' team coming in to F1, but it would come at the cost of being seen as undermining the rules and pissing off the FIA for your first year. Ultimately that will probably come back to bite the team somehow.

Sometimes it's best to play the game as intended, even if F1.

HustleRussell

16,886 posts

106 months

Friday 4th October
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Munter said:
Exige77 said:
Munter said:
rdjohn said:
The more Ross Brawn says, the more I like his approach. I think it'd be crazy for a new team to join the same year as the new regulations. Have the year, see the changes the big existing teams cause, then think about joining in 2022 or later. Fools rush in etc.
Not sure I agree, best chance for new under funded teams is when the rules have just changed. Even big teams have no idea how new regs will own out.

By year two, the big teams will have started to sort themselves out. Think Brawn and double diffuser. Their advantage was short lived.
You're talking about the Honda (Brawn) that had a full works team develop it. Here we're talking about HRT/"Lotus"/Spyker being able to join and make a long term success of it which adds to the F1 show. They are not going to exploit any loop holes. They are going to struggle to build a car to the regs and turn up for testing...something even Williams failed at on both counts this year.

I think a new team will be on better ground in the 2nd year of the designs once the more obvious loop holes have been found and are known, or have been blocked off.
I've got two words to say to all of this and those are 'Haas' and 'Model'...

Doesn't matter when you join in if an established team and existing component manufacturers are selling you all listed parts, the original parts you are forced to design and produce by the regulations is the minority of the car and much can be deduced from the design and construction of the listed parts.

In Haas' case, the tub is made by Dallara, the PU and all listed parts are supplied by Ferrari, and the rest can be done by a workforce which I believe is one of the very smallest on the grid (if not the smallest)

Todt doesn't think the new team is legitimate presumably because he hasn't seen any evidence of discussion with manufacturers, PU suppliers etc nor of a nine-figure sum made up from sponsors or private investors.

Edited by HustleRussell on Friday 4th October 16:57

The Moose

18,699 posts

155 months

Saturday 5th October
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With the supposed cost caps coming in, won’t there be a surplus of staff knocking around? And possibly sponsorship dollars.

It makes sense to have a couple of extra teams to soak up these resources.

Exige77

3,864 posts

137 months

Saturday 5th October
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Sponsors will be the same won’t they ?

The cap is on spending and not income.

The top teams will still charge the same.

Profits at the big teams will be up.

There will of course be some F1 talent free.

TheDeuce

3,136 posts

12 months

Saturday 5th October
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Exige77 said:
Sponsors will be the same won’t they ?

The cap is on spending and not income.

The top teams will still charge the same.

Profits at the big teams will be up.

There will of course be some F1 talent free.
Pretty much that's the deal.

The top teams will still draw in mega bucks and will probably use the 'profit' to maintain the costs of their respective b-teams so they can continue to test new parts and PU's via the b-team without worrying too much if it all goes wrong for them. In the end, the arrangement means that the top teams will still have double the budget on the grid at any one time than the smaller teams - some of whom can't even afford to reach the cap!

It at least stops spending going absolutely crazy, but it will in no way inhibit the top teams vs the rest of the field. It will however likely bring the top teams budgets in line with one another, which could be a good thing for us as viewers.

rdjohn

3,717 posts

141 months

Monday 7th October
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I think that even McLaren will struggle to meet the cap - it is being set way too high.

With regards to new teams Joe Saward says that they will need to cough up $200million to enter the championship, this will be used to compensate the existing teams as they will lose income.

In year-1 new teams will receive $40million in column 1 and 2 payments. As ever Ross seams keen to avoid repeating previous mistakes.

We are supposed to learn what the new Technical Regs will be this month - should be interesting.

StevieBee

7,999 posts

201 months

Monday 7th October
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I believe i'm right in thinking that F1 is the only major sporting contest in which you can enter without having gained any prior sporting right to do so. Every other sport requires teams to ascend through a league framework before earning a place at the top table.

Should there be some sort of 'league' system so teams have to have raced in F3, F2 first?

TheDeuce

3,136 posts

12 months

Monday 7th October
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StevieBee said:
I believe i'm right in thinking that F1 is the only major sporting contest in which you can enter without having gained any prior sporting right to do so. Every other sport requires teams to ascend through a league framework before earning a place at the top table.

Should there be some sort of 'league' system so teams have to have raced in F3, F2 first?
If there was a case for that it's now moot. Arguably you could go via FE on that journey now.

Also, let's be honest - it's not as if they want to make the barrier to entry any tougher. FOM and the FIA have their work cut out trying to maintain the bare minimum number of entrants they already have. Anyone with the money and operation behind them to at least stand half a chance will be welcomed.

HustleRussell

16,886 posts

106 months

Tuesday 8th October
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StevieBee said:
I believe i'm right in thinking that F1 is the only major sporting contest in which you can enter without having gained any prior sporting right to do so. Every other sport requires teams to ascend through a league framework before earning a place at the top table.

Should there be some sort of 'league' system so teams have to have raced in F3, F2 first?
Drivers need a superlicence.
Teams need a car which passes crash tests and complies with the regulations.

StevieBee

7,999 posts

201 months

Tuesday 8th October
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HustleRussell said:
StevieBee said:
I believe i'm right in thinking that F1 is the only major sporting contest in which you can enter without having gained any prior sporting right to do so. Every other sport requires teams to ascend through a league framework before earning a place at the top table.

Should there be some sort of 'league' system so teams have to have raced in F3, F2 first?
Drivers need a superlicence.
Teams need a car which passes crash tests and complies with the regulations.
Yep - but not quite what I meant.

Take football. If you had all the money you need, you could buy an existing Premier League team. But if you had all the money in the world and started a brand new team, your point of entry into the sport would be the Happy Shopper Southern League (or whatever the lowest league is) and would have to work your way up on merit.

As Deuce says, with money, you can launch your own F1 team from the off.