Lewis Hamilton Vs Michael Schumacher - Who Is Better?

[micky g]

Max is outperforming his machinery, neither Gasly or Albon have been able to get near him. (Gasly finished above Albon in the final tally so hasn't had such a bad season). Bottas is much closer to Hamilton.

Give Max a car that can match the Mercedes performance and I've no doubt he will be world champion.

[paulguitar]

micky g said:

Max is outperforming his machinery, neither Gasly or Albon have been able to get near him. (Gasly finished above Albon in the final tally so hasn't had such a bad season). Bottas is much closer to Hamilton.

Give Max a car that can match the Mercedes performance and I've no doubt he will be world champion.

It’s actually not possible to ‘outperform’ the car, but I would certainly agree Max is getting the best out of the Red Bull a lot of the time.

The problem is that there are still significant mistakes and too many. I’d not be surprised if he were in the same car as Lewis if he was quicker from time to time, but at present, I would expect Lewis to beat Max in equal equipment over a season, and possibly by a lot more than might be anticipated.

IMO, Max has the potential to one day be as great a driver as Lewis, but he is still a fair way off at present.

[TheDeuce]

paulguitar said:

micky g said:

Max is outperforming his machinery, neither Gasly or Albon have been able to get near him. (Gasly finished above Albon in the final tally so hasn't had such a bad season). Bottas is much closer to Hamilton.

Give Max a car that can match the Mercedes performance and I've no doubt he will be world champion.

It’s actually not possible to ‘outperform’ the car, but I would certainly agree Max is getting the best out of the Red Bull a lot of the time.

The problem is that there are still significant mistakes and too many. I’d not be surprised if he were in the same car as Lewis if he was quicker from time to time, but at present, I would expect Lewis to beat Max in equal equipment over a season, and possibly by a lot more than might be anticipated.

IMO, Max has the potential to one day be as great a driver as Lewis, but he is still a fair way off at present.

One day maybe for Max.. maybe he has the potential to become more consistent, maybe not.

The thing is, Lewis is naturally calm, focused and consistent, it's not forced or learnt, it's a natural trait. Max is naturally high strung and hot headed.

Maybe in Max's case that can change with time and age, but to me it looks a lot like a fundamental part of his make up.

Say he can 'force' himself to change though... Nico Rosberg's focus was affected by his emotions when things didn't go his way, he was too easily distracted by his emotions and lost focus at times, which is where Lewis beat him. In the end he recognised that was why Lewis was winning and decided to deal with his own weaknesses to solve the problem.

He managed it of course, he won. The problem is he hadn't really 'changed' though, he'd just managed to improve his own stability by excluding everything in life other than F1 and employed mental training/coaching, meditation and a great deal of personal emotional suppression. Impressive for sure, but he was a mess at the end and it probably wasn't healthy for him. Certainly not a repeatable effort to the extent he could have gone on to exceed Lewis in number of titles.

Max definitely has the potential. But unless he can naturally continue to develop in the right direction, it's a potential that might never be fully realised. Unless he does a Rosberg at some point, which as we have seen, is possible but not sustainable.

[kiseca]

micky g said:

Max is outperforming his machinery, neither Gasly or Albon have been able to get near him. (Gasly finished above Albon in the final tally so hasn't had such a bad season). Bottas is much closer to Hamilton.

Give Max a car that can match the Mercedes performance and I've no doubt he will be world champion.

Albon and Max had 9 races together at red bull. For that period, Albon was ahead on points for the first 7, in that car. That swapped around when Max won in Brazil, and by the end of the season Max had scored 21 points more than Alex in races where they were both in Red Bulls.

Alex has yet to score a podium, yet for nearly half a season, he was ahead of Max. Far from not being able to get near him. Max is spectacular, but not effective, and would be vulnerable to driver who is consistently scoring points but also troubles the podium from time to time. As Ricciardo showed.

Max doesn't care right now because he's in a car that's not expected to win the championship, so the occasional win against the odds feels like a great success, but he's not maximising the potential of the car right now, never mind outperforming it.

When he's in a car that's fast and reliable enough that it is (in Max's mind) expected to win a championship, and he loses it, then he'll maybe start looking at the big picture and stop making decisions that cost him points.

[HustleRussell]

kiseca said:

Albon and Max had 9 races together at red bull. For that period, Albon was ahead on points for the first 7, in that car. That swapped around when Max won in Brazil, and by the end of the season Max had scored 21 points more than Alex in races where they were both in Red Bulls.

Alex has yet to score a podium, yet for nearly half a season, he was ahead of Max. Far from not being able to get near him. Max is spectacular, but not effective, and would be vulnerable to driver who is consistently scoring points but also troubles the podium from time to time. As Ricciardo showed.

Max doesn't care right now because he's in a car that's not expected to win the championship, so the occasional win against the odds feels like a great success, but he's not maximising the potential of the car right now, never mind outperforming it.

When he's in a car that's fast and reliable enough that it is (in Max's mind) expected to win a championship, and he loses it, then he'll maybe start looking at the big picture and stop making decisions that cost him points.

Max is my villain du jour but I think that Albon outscoring him over the second half of the season is a bit of a statistical quirk. IMO, unlikely to be repeated unless Albon takes a big step forward for 2020.

Verstappen came third in the championship ahead of both Ferrari drivers in a car which on average has been unarguably 3rd best.

[TheDeuce]

HustleRussell said:

Max is my villain du jour but I think that Albon outscoring him over the second half of the season is a bit of a statistical quirk. IMO, unlikely to be repeated unless Albon takes a big step forward for 2020.

Verstappen came third in the championship ahead of both Ferrari drivers in a car which on average has been unarguably 3rd best.

Best between the red bull and the Ferrari is indeed a tricky one to call, but I think overall Ferrari have just about edged it. Given max only just beat them in spite of Ferrari making constant errors.

The red bull has really come together this season though, and for the second half, for me has looked as potent as the Ferrari, albeit each showing their advantages at different circuits.

I think next year Ferrari might have a red bull shaped problem to deal with - dependant on how well Albon performs.

[mattikake]

Just to point out again, Max has NEVER won a championship outside of karting. He may not know how to, psychologically speaking. He has a lot of learning still to do. But it seems inconceivable that someone with his speed would never win a wdc. That would be a miss to annihilate the likes or Pryce, Gilles or Peterson... and they all had to die prematurely.

However, as the old adage goes, it's easier to make a fast driver consistent than a consistent driver fast...

[angrymoby]

sparta6 said:

Ofcourse, there is a difference between great results and true greatness.

Greatness comes from triumph over adversity and disaster.

In the small bubble that is F1, Fangio remains the greatest. Extreme adversity with broken body and yet still reigned supreme.
Others who have bounced back after F1 adversity would include Lauda, Hakkinen, Schumacher, Graham Hill, Mansell, Zanardi, Kubica.

It's never just about the numbers

including Schumacher in that list is a bit of an insult imo, Lauda & Häkkinen nearly died, Zanardi & Kubica had life changing injuries

here's Michael just about coping with his 'adversity'...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4UOgP42jT0

[paulguitar]

angrymoby said:

sparta6 said:

Ofcourse, there is a difference between great results and true greatness.

Greatness comes from triumph over adversity and disaster.

In the small bubble that is F1, Fangio remains the greatest. Extreme adversity with broken body and yet still reigned supreme.
Others who have bounced back after F1 adversity would include Lauda, Hakkinen, Schumacher, Graham Hill, Mansell, Zanardi, Kubica.

It's never just about the numbers

including Schumacher in that list is a bit of an insult imo, Lauda & Häkkinen nearly died, Zanardi & Kubica had life changing injuries

here's Michael just about coping with his 'adversity'...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4UOgP42jT0

Indeed, and it is total nonsense to say you have to have been horribly injured and returned to achieve ‘true greatness’, an utterly bizarre illogical idea.

Aside from that, the list itself is questionable. Fangio injured his neck and had some time out of the sport and Graham Hill returned from significant leg injuries, but not to any kind of greatness, and actually by the time he retired he was a feature of the back end of the grid. Kubica returned and was outdriven comprehensively by a rookie teammate and went around at the back for a whole season. Zanardi was never in anything like Hamilton's league as a driver.

So is this the latest thing for Hamilton, Sparta, he won't have achieved ‘true greatness’ until he has returned from some kind of injury?

It’s getting more and more surreal, the refusal to give Hamilton his earned respect.

Edited by paulguitar on Saturday 7th December 17:29

[mattikake]

paulguitar said:

angrymoby said:

sparta6 said:

Ofcourse, there is a difference between great results and true greatness.

Greatness comes from triumph over adversity and disaster.

In the small bubble that is F1, Fangio remains the greatest. Extreme adversity with broken body and yet still reigned supreme.
Others who have bounced back after F1 adversity would include Lauda, Hakkinen, Schumacher, Graham Hill, Mansell, Zanardi, Kubica.

It's never just about the numbers

including Schumacher in that list is a bit of an insult imo, Lauda & Häkkinen nearly died, Zanardi & Kubica had life changing injuries

here's Michael just about coping with his 'adversity'...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4UOgP42jT0

Indeed, and it is total nonsense to say you have to have been horribly injured and returned to achieve ‘true greatness’, an utterly bizarre illogical idea.

Aside from that, the list itself is questionable. Fangio injured his neck and had some time out of the sport and Graham Hill returned from significant leg injuries, but not to any kind of greatness, and actually by the time he retired he was a feature of the back end of the grid. Kubica returned and was outdriven comprehensively by a rookie teammate and went around at the back for a whole season. Zanardi was never in anything like Hamilton's league as a driver.

So is this the latest thing for Hamilton, Sparta, he won't have achieved ‘true greatness’ until he has returned from some kind of injury?

It’s getting more and more surreal, the refusal to give Hamilton his earned respect.

Edited by paulguitar on Saturday 7th December 17:29

Indeed a bizarre requirement for a driver to achieve greatness.

But he did say overcoming adversity in that post of diatribe. I guess Hamilton being from a working class background and being black in a world of white dominance (if one were to play the pc racist white-supremacy card) wouldn't count as a worthy triumph over adversity in sparta's eyes?

And including Schumacher's broken leg as a disaster enough to qualify for greatness, hell that must mean most drivers have overcome adversity. And don't for a moment look ar motogp riders who rack up way more injuries, often actually continue to race with their various broken bones.

Edited by mattikake on Saturday 7th December 18:14

[paulguitar]

At this point, for me it has just become a bit of fun here seeing the various knots a couple of contributors are prepared to tie themselves into to reject how a calibre of driver Hamilton is. I must admit part of me quite admires the sheer force of will and determination required to look for new angles to twist things to try to make a case.

I do think this latest qualification to have to have returned from injury to be a necessary to achieve ’true greatness’ rather than, for example, actual results, is pretty damn funny though!

[Exige77]

Lewis has overcome great hair tragedies over many years.

He’s not let it get in the way of his driving though.

That’s greatness already !!

[mattikake]

paulguitar said:

At this point, for me it has just become a bit of fun here seeing the various knots a couple of contributors are prepared to tie themselves into to reject how a calibre of driver Hamilton is. I must admit part of me quite admires the sheer force of will and determination required to look for new angles to twist things to try to make a case.

I do think this latest qualification to have to have returned from injury to be a necessary to achieve ’true greatness’ rather than, for example, actual results, is pretty damn funny though!

Yep.

Here's a question for you to ponder; have you ever met an intelligent Schumacher fan?

Seriously. Online, irl, on Mars ?

And by intelligent I'm not saying they must prove an IQ of over 100 (though I still consider that score pretty dumb but whatever) but as someone by your own measure, who appears intelligent. Perhaps they are articulate or have opinions on other subjects [besides poor taste in their favourite driver] that appear well reasoned. Etc.

Ime to answer my own question - no. I would say maybe one day I will but it's been roughly 20 years now and most of them have tried playing Russian roulette with a semi-automatic pistol by now...

[LaurasOtherHalf]

TheDeuce said:

The thing is, Lewis is naturally calm, focused and consistent, it's not forced or learnt,

When did you start watching F1? I'm one of HAM's greatest supporters but even i despaired at some of his driving back in the McLaren dark years.

The greatest compliment I can give him is he has learned to erase his weaknesses, he can still fall back into them but to his eternal credit it's only when he's won the championship and doesn't care any more.

[paulguitar]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

TheDeuce said:

The thing is, Lewis is naturally calm, focused and consistent, it's not forced or learnt,

When did you start watching F1? I'm one of HAM's greatest supporters but even i despaired at some of his driving back in the McLaren dark years.

The greatest compliment I can give him is he has learned to erase his weaknesses, he can still fall back into them but to his eternal credit it's only when he's won the championship and doesn't care any more.

I think that’s the point, he could indeed get a bit hot-headed in his earlier years, but he has almost totally eradicated that from his traits. One of the things you will hear most from those who have worked with him is that he is relentlessly self-critical. I think that is the thing I admire the most, and try to learn from as much as I can in my own life. As humans, we tend to hate criticism and bristle from it, but it is actually how we can most successfully improve, to listen to it and learn from it. Something that is hard to do, but a massive strength.

[paulguitar]

mattikake said:

Yep.

Here's a question for you to ponder; have you ever met an intelligent Schumacher fan?

Well, my (very intelligent) best mate was a big Schuy fan when we met in 2000, so it was him supporting MS and me supporting Mika. Over the years though, he has come to fully accept what my objections were to Schuey, and now fully agrees that he was a brilliant, but ultimately unforgivably flawed sportsman.

He and I are on exactly the same page regarding Hamilton, and both think by now he is looking rather GOATy.

[kiseca]

mattikake said:

Yep.

Here's a question for you to ponder; have you ever met an intelligent Schumacher fan?

Ross Brawn.

[Exige77]

kiseca said:

mattikake said:

Yep.

Here's a question for you to ponder; have you ever met an intelligent Schumacher fan?

Ross Brawn.

He was involved in Schumacher’s advantages so we would be a fan wouldn’t he ?

I don’t think Brawn thought much of Hamilton when he arrived at Mercedes ?

I think he has changed his mind since though.

[mattikake]

Exige77 said:

kiseca said:

mattikake said:

Yep.

Here's a question for you to ponder; have you ever met an intelligent Schumacher fan?

Ross Brawn.

He was involved in Schumacher’s advantages so we would be a fan wouldn’t he ?

I don’t think Brawn thought much of Hamilton when he arrived at Mercedes ?

I think he has changed his mind since though.

I did say "met" but maybe you have.

Someone who has an active involvement in their performance isn't really a fan, more like a colleague.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Exige77 said:

I don’t think Brawn thought much of Hamilton when he arrived at Mercedes ?

What makes you say that?