Renault Brakegate

Renault Brakegate

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vaud

Original Poster:

38,287 posts

114 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
Given the potential implications, I thought this worthy of a new thread:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/renault-facing-suspe...
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/48019/brake-gate-th...

Will be fascinating to see how this plays out, and how Racing Point figured it out (watching the drivers, whistleblower, etc)

Andy S15

399 posts

86 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
Yeah this could be a good topic, could it be legal interpretation of the rules? I'm also genuinely interested in how on earth another team can notice this kind of thing.

Also, how would this system actually help? Surely the bias settings are completely contextual to each lap based on track condition, tyre condition and running weight. There are some things that the driver will just be able to carry out more accurately due to their feel, rather than automating.

Deesee

4,673 posts

42 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
Heres a transcript/translation from AMUS via https://twitter.com/Vetteleclerc



IMO, a person moving between the teams, a disgruntled driver or hmmm, Horner...

mat205125

15,994 posts

172 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
Following

vaud

Original Poster:

38,287 posts

114 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
I thought Jean-Dominique Senard was pro-F1.

Mr Pointy

6,554 posts

118 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
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It will be even more interesting if someone protests the Ferrari engine:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferrari-engine-...

DaveTheRave87

1,649 posts

48 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
I can't see how it's an issue. Location dependant engine/hybrid maps have been around for a few years.

vaud

Original Poster:

38,287 posts

114 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
DaveTheRave87 said:
I can't see how it's an issue. Location dependant engine/hybrid maps have been around for a few years.
Brakes are different:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/146555/renault-p...

"Article 11.1.3 of F1's Technical Regulations states: "Any powered device, other than the system referred to in Article 11.9, which is capable of altering the configuration or affecting the performance of any part of the brake system is forbidden."

The exception referred to in Article 11.9 is that the pressure modulation for the rear brake-by-wire system can be 'provided by a powered control system.'

The references to the Sporting Regulations and International Sporting Code could relate to the ban on driver aids in F1.

Article 27.1 of F1's Sporting Regulations states: "The driver must drive the car alone and unaided.""

sgtBerbatov

2,372 posts

40 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
The thing is, the rules say (apparently) that the driver has to drive the car alone and unaided. But the car has power steering, they can change engine maps for performance boosts, anti stall procedures, etc. They're all aiding the driver, so having something control brake bias is also an aid, but so are the others mentioned. To me anyway.

Kraken

1,559 posts

159 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
sgtBerbatov said:
The thing is, the rules say (apparently) that the driver has to drive the car alone and unaided. But the car has power steering, they can change engine maps for performance boosts, anti stall procedures, etc. They're all aiding the driver, so having something control brake bias is also an aid, but so are the others mentioned. To me anyway.
Difference is that the power steering doesn't do anything without the driver, engine maps are selected by the driver etc. The car automatically adjusting the brake bias to compensate for fuel usage/tyre deg is nothing to do with the driver.

red_slr

11,916 posts

148 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
I thought all the teams had something like this these days? I wonder if its even possible to prove to what degree its automated also..

Andy S15

399 posts

86 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
vaud said:
"Article 11.1.3 of F1's Technical Regulations states: "Any powered device, other than the system referred to in Article 11.9, which is capable of altering the configuration or affecting the performance of any part of the brake system is forbidden."

The exception referred to in Article 11.9 is that the pressure modulation for the rear brake-by-wire system can be 'provided by a powered control system.'

The references to the Sporting Regulations and International Sporting Code could relate to the ban on driver aids in F1.

Article 27.1 of F1's Sporting Regulations states: "The driver must drive the car alone and unaided.""
Interesting, this actually seems somewhat simple to me, given the above.

If article 11.9 refers to a powered device that is an exception to article 11.1.3, as long as Renault's alleged brake control system is powered and controlled by this same device, that reads like an exploitable loophole to me.

StevieBee

9,174 posts

214 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
Kraken said:
sgtBerbatov said:
The thing is, the rules say (apparently) that the driver has to drive the car alone and unaided. But the car has power steering, they can change engine maps for performance boosts, anti stall procedures, etc. They're all aiding the driver, so having something control brake bias is also an aid, but so are the others mentioned. To me anyway.
Difference is that the power steering doesn't do anything without the driver, engine maps are selected by the driver etc. The car automatically adjusting the brake bias to compensate for fuel usage/tyre deg is nothing to do with the driver.
It's an interesting point, though - and one open to interpretation.

One could argue that part of the skill of a driver should be to sense differing demands placed upon the mechanical operation of the car at any point during the course of the race - including braking - and adjust accordingly. Anything that removes the opportunity for that skill to be exercised is a direct aid to the driver.

Paul_M3

1,697 posts

144 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
Is it not the final few words in 11.1.4 that are key?

Any change to, or modulation of, the brake system, other than any movement of the minimal
flexible parts described in Article 11.4 to 11.6, whilst the car is on the track must be made by
the driver's direct physical input or by the system referred to in Article 11.9, and may not be
pre‐set.

Derek Smith

38,166 posts

207 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
On the other hand, good news for McLaren.

Selfish point of view, I know, but we McLaren fans (that's me and Kevin) haven't had much to cheer about over recent years.


anonymous-user

13 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
Deesee said:
Heres a transcript/translation from AMUS via https://twitter.com/Vetteleclerc



IMO, a person moving between the teams, a disgruntled driver or hmmm, Horner...
This.

Leggy

923 posts

181 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
Whatever it is it ain’t helping them much is it!

Doink

1,529 posts

106 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
red_slr said:
I thought all the teams had something like this these days? I wonder if its even possible to prove to what degree its automated also..
Isn't harvesting and deployment controlled by gps or that other track position thingy method?

Stan the Bat

5,925 posts

171 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
Leggy said:
Whatever it is it ain’t helping them much is it!
It's keeping them in front of Williams.

vaud

Original Poster:

38,287 posts

114 months

Thursday 17th October 2019
quotequote all
Doink said:
red_slr said:
I thought all the teams had something like this these days? I wonder if its even possible to prove to what degree its automated also..
Isn't harvesting and deployment controlled by gps or that other track position thingy method?
Brakes are the exception to automation?