Ferrari: Enginegate

Ferrari: Enginegate

Author
Discussion

Graveworm

5,625 posts

31 months

Thursday 21st November 2019
quotequote all
Kraken said:
The whole fuel flow thing is one of the most stupid ideas they ever came up with. Just specify the size of the tank and let them do what they want from there. More stupid restrictions there are the more money is wasted trying to find ways around them.
How about qualifying or where a B team or number 2 driver burns through their fuel, in the first part of the race, to block opposition. Not to mention it will become even more about simulations and tactics with under/overcuts becoming even easier.

alock

3,852 posts

171 months

Thursday 21st November 2019
quotequote all
Kraken said:
The whole fuel flow thing is one of the most stupid ideas they ever came up with. Just specify the size of the tank and let them do what they want from there. More stupid restrictions there are the more money is wasted trying to find ways around them.
Haven't they tried that, and teams found ways around it, such as inflatable bladders inside the tank which are inflated for the test

glazbagun

11,128 posts

157 months

Thursday 21st November 2019
quotequote all
alock said:
Kraken said:
The whole fuel flow thing is one of the most stupid ideas they ever came up with. Just specify the size of the tank and let them do what they want from there. More stupid restrictions there are the more money is wasted trying to find ways around them.
Haven't they tried that, and teams found ways around it, such as inflatable bladders inside the tank which are inflated for the test
It'd been mentioned before, but without a fuel flow limit you'd get an arms race for qualifying. As opposed to other arms races.

Angpozzuto

396 posts

69 months

Thursday 21st November 2019
quotequote all
Kraken said:
The whole fuel flow thing is one of the most stupid ideas they ever came up with. Just specify the size of the tank and let them do what they want from there. More stupid restrictions there are the more money is wasted trying to find ways around them.
Exactly it would be so much simpler if every team started the race with the same amount of fuel so in theory the drivers are more likely to push the cars for longer during the race rather than having to lift and coast as they've under fueled the car

RemarkLima

971 posts

172 months

Thursday 21st November 2019
quotequote all
Angpozzuto said:
Kraken said:
The whole fuel flow thing is one of the most stupid ideas they ever came up with. Just specify the size of the tank and let them do what they want from there. More stupid restrictions there are the more money is wasted trying to find ways around them.
Exactly it would be so much simpler if every team started the race with the same amount of fuel so in theory the drivers are more likely to push the cars for longer during the race rather than having to lift and coast as they've under fueled the car
The fuel flow limit is also there to encourage better use of the energy in the fuel, so if you can get 50% of the energy as kenetic over a rivals 45% that's a big deal!

I think it is worth maintaining, but somehow allow the engines to get to 18k rpm!

TheDeuce

7,810 posts

26 months

Thursday 21st November 2019
quotequote all
RemarkLima said:
The fuel flow limit is also there to encourage better use of the energy in the fuel, so if you can get 50% of the energy as kenetic over a rivals 45% that's a big deal!

I think it is worth maintaining, but somehow allow the engines to get to 18k rpm!
I have to agree. Revs are missing from the current F1 soundtrack and surely heightened rev limit could be combined with energy deployment for an overtake? Basically a balls out mode...

Big Nanas

605 posts

44 months

Friday 22nd November 2019
quotequote all
Angpozzuto said:
Kraken said:
The whole fuel flow thing is one of the most stupid ideas they ever came up with. Just specify the size of the tank and let them do what they want from there. More stupid restrictions there are the more money is wasted trying to find ways around them.
Exactly it would be so much simpler if every team started the race with the same amount of fuel so in theory the drivers are more likely to push the cars for longer during the race rather than having to lift and coast as they've under fueled the car
It was also so the teams/engine manufacturers don't spend huge amounts of money create qualifying monsters.

TheDeuce

7,810 posts

26 months

Friday 22nd November 2019
quotequote all
Big Nanas said:
Angpozzuto said:
Kraken said:
The whole fuel flow thing is one of the most stupid ideas they ever came up with. Just specify the size of the tank and let them do what they want from there. More stupid restrictions there are the more money is wasted trying to find ways around them.
Exactly it would be so much simpler if every team started the race with the same amount of fuel so in theory the drivers are more likely to push the cars for longer during the race rather than having to lift and coast as they've under fueled the car
It was also so the teams/engine manufacturers don't spend huge amounts of money create qualifying monsters.
Also simply to cap power. There have been endless regs introduced to slow the cars down in various ways during each era. It is a little frustrating at times, to see how much they're held back - but the truth is without such limits F1 cars would be too fast to safely drive at this point.

janesmith1950

9,170 posts

55 months

Friday 22nd November 2019
quotequote all
Whatever the merits of the rules, they're there for everybody. If any team is increasing power by circumventing them, it's a big black mark.

With both the Mercedes and Renault works entries far from certain beyond 2021, I'm not sure F1 is in a strong enough position to deal properly with the situation if Ferrari were found to have cheated. I suspect they'd brush it under the carpet and quietly ask them not to do it again.

vaud

38,367 posts

115 months

Friday 22nd November 2019
quotequote all
janesmith1950 said:
Whatever the merits of the rules, they're there for everybody. If any team is increasing power by circumventing them, it's a big black mark.

With both the Mercedes and Renault works entries far from certain beyond 2021, I'm not sure F1 is in a strong enough position to deal properly with the situation if Ferrari were found to have cheated. I suspect they'd brush it under the carpet and quietly ask them not to do it again.
They would have a significant issue if they need to ban/penalise Honda and Ferrari. With Renault looking a bit flaky you could, worst case, have a somewhat decimated grid.

Expect slaps on wrist and rule clarifications in my view.

CoolHands

11,611 posts

155 months

Friday 22nd November 2019
quotequote all
They could give them a weight of fuel that is used in both qualifying and the race and let the teams decide how they want to use it. In the end it would reach an equilibrium

Flooble

2,411 posts

60 months

Friday 22nd November 2019
quotequote all
CoolHands said:
They could give them a weight of fuel that is used in both qualifying and the race and let the teams decide how they want to use it. In the end it would reach an equilibrium
You'd still end up with qualifying monsters that put it on pole then create a train behind them (especially using B teams as rear gunners). Lack of overtaking opportunities at several tracks being the root cause.

Deesee

4,691 posts

43 months

Friday 22nd November 2019
quotequote all
Looks like no irregularities on the Ferrari fuel systems..

Confirmation to follow

janesmith1950

9,170 posts

55 months

Friday 22nd November 2019
quotequote all
Deesee said:
Looks like no irregularities on the Ferrari fuel systems..

Confirmation to follow
Not any more...

37chevy

3,280 posts

116 months

Friday 22nd November 2019
quotequote all
janesmith1950 said:
Deesee said:
Looks like no irregularities on the Ferrari fuel systems..

Confirmation to follow
Not any more...
Sources

janesmith1950

9,170 posts

55 months

Friday 22nd November 2019
quotequote all
37chevy said:
Sources
Not any more as in the horse has bolted and if they were up to no good the kit probably disappeared shortly before Austin.

TheDeuce

7,810 posts

26 months

Friday 22nd November 2019
quotequote all
janesmith1950 said:
37chevy said:
Sources
Not any more as in the horse has bolted and if they were up to no good the kit probably disappeared shortly before Austin.
Possibly. Far more likely that they have no more power really than their rivals, but a low down-force car. their low down-force philosophy has led to them having to cobble on down-force at certain circuits, with various results which have lead to differing pace..

The ONLY reason they were ever described as having 'more power' than anyone else is that they're faster on the straights. Look at their car and the lower rake they're running though? You would (should) expect it to be a slippery bullet on the straights. And suffer in the corners as a result, which they have done all season, compared to their competitors.

I'm lost as to what part of that needs explaining with rumours of anything 'secret' going on. Other than foul play being more interesting than Ferrari simply making less good choices than their rivals when they decided how to design their 2019 car.




janesmith1950

9,170 posts

55 months

Friday 22nd November 2019
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Possibly. Far more likely that they have no more power really than their rivals, but a low down-force car. their low down-force philosophy has led to them having to cobble on down-force at certain circuits, with various results which have lead to differing pace..

The ONLY reason they were ever described as having 'more power' than anyone else is that they're faster on the straights. Look at their car and the lower rake they're running though? You would (should) expect it to be a slippery bullet on the straights. And suffer in the corners as a result, which they have done all season, compared to their competitors.

I'm lost as to what part of that needs explaining with rumours of anything 'secret' going on. Other than foul play being more interesting than Ferrari simply making less good choices than their rivals when they decided how to design their 2019 car.
That would make sense if they came back after August with similar performance. They didn't. They came back with vastly superior straight-line performance compared to before the break. That is why the other teams cry foul.

Taking your explanation, Ferrari spent the first half seeing they were too slow in the corners, and decided to concentrate even more on straight line aero performance, which by Ferrari's own admission, they did the opposite.

Yes, they have a lower drag aero philosophy, but that doesn't explain the sudden boost of performance after the summer break (unless engine power/delivery was significantly boosted).

TheDeuce

7,810 posts

26 months

Friday 22nd November 2019
quotequote all
janesmith1950 said:
TheDeuce said:
Possibly. Far more likely that they have no more power really than their rivals, but a low down-force car. their low down-force philosophy has led to them having to cobble on down-force at certain circuits, with various results which have lead to differing pace..

The ONLY reason they were ever described as having 'more power' than anyone else is that they're faster on the straights. Look at their car and the lower rake they're running though? You would (should) expect it to be a slippery bullet on the straights. And suffer in the corners as a result, which they have done all season, compared to their competitors.

I'm lost as to what part of that needs explaining with rumours of anything 'secret' going on. Other than foul play being more interesting than Ferrari simply making less good choices than their rivals when they decided how to design their 2019 car.
That would make sense if they came back after August with similar performance. They didn't. They came back with vastly superior straight-line performance compared to before the break. That is why the other teams cry foul.

Taking your explanation, Ferrari spent the first half seeing they were too slow in the corners, and decided to concentrate even more on straight line aero performance, which by Ferrari's own admission, they did the opposite.

Yes, they have a lower drag aero philosophy, but that doesn't explain the sudden boost of performance after the summer break (unless engine power/delivery was significantly boosted).
The speed increase (which wasn't 'huge') after the summer break could easily be explained by them getting on top of some cooling issues, a refined PU and a subsequent small, but impressive straight line speed increase. Surely the most likely explanation is that they simply had time to learn before the break and time during it to implement several minor improvements that collectively showed a satisfying result.

I'm no oracle, perhaps they did cheat. But being realistic, it's more likely to be just a successful in season development as it is anything dodgy.

janesmith1950

9,170 posts

55 months

Friday 22nd November 2019
quotequote all
The history of Motorsport suggests not. Teams don't suddenly find half a second or more on the straights mid-season through regular means.

Also, Red Bull and others don't bang on about cheating unless they're pretty sure something untoward is going on.

But no, it's entirely because Ferrari had a crap aero first half and decided the solution was to push further in the same direction. Obviously...