Ferrari

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HTP99

17,152 posts

98 months

Thursday 7th November 2019
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It's funny how these work cultures become a thing and they cannot see it themselves and struggle to bring about change, unless there is outside influence; of course with Ferrari there was a change in the Schumacher years with Ross Brawn etc but then they all leave and it goes back to what it was and they stand and scratch their heads wondering what their issues are.

Muzzer79

3,802 posts

145 months

Thursday 7th November 2019
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StevieBee said:
Wasn't it John Barnard who set up a Ferrari design office in Guildford?
He did indeed.

For a reason I can't remember, he had to set it up as a company in it's own right - it couldn't just be another Ferrari office.

So, being a Ferrari design office, he called it 'GTO' - Guildford Technical Office.

biggrin

kiseca

8,275 posts

177 months

Thursday 7th November 2019
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Daston said:
Part of me feels that even Kimi's Championship year wasn't really Ferrari at its best but more Hamilton/Alonso tripping over each other and the FIA making some very odd calls. Was certainly close!
Yeah, that's the one championship that in my head never really happened, for a few reasons and some are biased.

I was excited to see what Hamilton could do since I remember reading an article on him in Fast Lane (I think, maybe Performance Car or Evo) when he was still a kid in karting. Then in the first half of the season he proved to be both fast and consistent and set a record for podium finishes. I was very keen to see a new driver come in and win it on their first attempt, felt like it would have been an historic season.

Then the spygate scandal hit. I think that took focus away from McLaren's championship challenge and all the effort to fight that cost either Hamilton or Alonso the title. Then, when it came to the court case, by which time the championship was now definitely a head to head between the McLarens and Kimi's Ferrari, I felt that, if they're really focussed on either finding the truth or responding to what happened, then either McLaren are found innocent and there's no penalty, or they are found guilty and excluded from the results... incl. their drivers. I felt that, if after dragging this on so long until they have a title race to keep the viewing numbers up, they decide to find some way of punishing McLaren but letting the title race carry on, they were selling out.. and of course that's exactly what they found.

At that point the 2007 championship lost all relevance to me. To me it was then just clearly an engineered TV money maker and the winner, whichever of the three it was, was no longer winning just on their own merit. I didn't watch another race that season. If the car was OK to compete in, then let the team and the drivers compete. If the car had an unfair advantage because of the shared data, then exclude it. Instead they took a middle road that didn't commit to either decision.

I think part of my strong reaction was because, once it got to the point at which the season to me became farcical, the excitement of seeing a newcomer win first time around had been taken away. I didn't watch 2008 either.

I know it's always engineered to an extent, but that was the decision that to me put them over the top.


marine boy

443 posts

136 months

Thursday 7th November 2019
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TheDeuce said:
Out of interest, in what capacity did you work for Ferrari?

Edited by TheDeuce on Thursday 7th November 07:34
Just a senior minion ie brought in for my experience and given a lot of freedom working with/for many technical departments eg chassis, engine, aero, transmission, electrical etc and race team so had a relatively broad view of the inner workings

I'm sure my observations don't read as people would like to believe but this is how it was for me........

The team celebrates each win as if it were the first, have a humble approach towards winning, respect towards their competitors, only secretive towards outsiders, nationality comes secondary to ability, play hard within the rules but are very good at clarifying the rules to suit their own needs, keen to learn from brought in experience/knowledge and the guys work harder and with more passion than most teams

Their approach is the Ferrari way which is no better or worse than the other big teams just different, obviously it could be improved as Mercedes has been the stronger team for a few years now

In Italy the most important thing to Italians are their mum, football, then Ferrari or Rossi depending on who is doing the most winning biggrin

The pressure on the team is huge, unlike anything any other team has to deal with. The Italian press is brutal as it not just a few tifosi willing on the team to win but a whole country.




Edited by marine boy on Thursday 7th November 23:54

marine boy

443 posts

136 months

Thursday 7th November 2019
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SturdyHSV said:
hehe
^^^^ me when I typed it hehe glad it made you smile

ajprice

18,853 posts

154 months

Thursday 14th November 2019
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https://jalopnik.com/literally-everything-is-wrong...

"In Bahrain, Leclerc had an engine cylinder failure. In Austria, Vettel had problems with the air pressure line. It was turbo problems for Vettel and a fuel system problem for Leclerc in Germany. In Russia, Vettel’s power unit overheated. And at the US GP, Leclerc had an oil leak.

In the event that you were not aware, that is Really Not Good! This isn’t necessarily just an engine problem, it’s a significant failure to design an engine, period. The whole thing is bad."

It isn't one part of the engine that is off and failing, its something different every time. That isn't going to help them for next year's engine if they are playing whack a mole with the problems instead of knowing what to fix with this years.

Munter

30,064 posts

199 months

Thursday 14th November 2019
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Doesn't this come under the "It's easier to make a fast car reliable, than a reliable car fast".

It seems to me that to compete with Merc they have been pushing the PU technology boundary hard and so it's going to have issues. But at least it's fast when it's working.

TheDeuce

7,309 posts

24 months

Thursday 14th November 2019
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Munter said:
Doesn't this come under the "It's easier to make a fast car reliable, than a reliable car fast".

It seems to me that to compete with Merc they have been pushing the PU technology boundary hard and so it's going to have issues. But at least it's fast when it's working.
Not really working though is it? 'if' their PU is indeed more powerful than Mercs, at most it can only be a fraction more power. A tiny benefit really compared to the other differences in the Mercs favour. And whatever advantage they sought by trying to be that tiny bit quicker is wiped out and more each time there's a failure or even a suspected potential issue.

In real terms, if they're a tiny bit faster than Merc they stand to gain a few more points on certain circuits. If their PU goes bang they lose a bucket load of points and get handicapped going into the next weekend.

Muzzer79

3,802 posts

145 months

Thursday 14th November 2019
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ajprice said:
https://jalopnik.com/literally-everything-is-wrong...

"In Bahrain, Leclerc had an engine cylinder failure. In Austria, Vettel had problems with the air pressure line. It was turbo problems for Vettel and a fuel system problem for Leclerc in Germany. In Russia, Vettel’s power unit overheated. And at the US GP, Leclerc had an oil leak.

In the event that you were not aware, that is Really Not Good! This isn’t necessarily just an engine problem, it’s a significant failure to design an engine, period. The whole thing is bad."

It isn't one part of the engine that is off and failing, its something different every time. That isn't going to help them for next year's engine if they are playing whack a mole with the problems instead of knowing what to fix with this years.
In fairness, that's a bit of a sensationalist article. Honda had plenty of issues in 2017 but managed to improve in 2018 and are pretty much there in 2019. It's just that Ferrari is more public because they're nearer the front.

It wasn't a problem in Belgium, Italy or Singapore.....

Oh and the article was also clearly written by someone with the writing style of a buffoon.

marine boy

443 posts

136 months

Tuesday 10th December 2019
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marine boy said:
The pressure on the team is huge, unlike anything any other team has to deal with. The Italian press is brutal as it not just a few tifosi willing on the team to win but a whole country.

Edited by marine boy on Thursday 7th November 23:54
This article is spot on with regards to the added pressure the team has to deal with above and beyond normal, everyday racing pressures

https://www.grandprix.com/news/more-pressure-at-fe...

TheDeuce

7,309 posts

24 months

Tuesday 10th December 2019
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marine boy said:
This article is spot on with regards to the added pressure the team has to deal with above and beyond normal, everyday racing pressures

https://www.grandprix.com/news/more-pressure-at-fe...
I have no doubt Ferrari have a all the tools, knowledge and expertise to win. The fat they are not winning titles is far more likely due to other teams not having materially 'more' of anything, but simply getting more from their team members and promoting a more effective team spirit/drive/motivation whatever.

Mercedes culture regarding team error/mistakes is pretty decent. You're never 'in trouble' for making a mistake, providing it's acknowledged - that way there is an opportunity to judge how the same mistake can be avoided in future. Mistakes happen, it's human nature - but being honest and reasonable about that fact at least makes it possible to avoid repeating the same mistakes. - That's how Toto explained it during some business speech I saw him give on YouTube.

I have no idea how Ferrari deal with mistakes.. But it's hard not to imagine a slightly different approach to Mercedes - given all the sackings and re-shuffles over the years.

The constant mistakes they have made as a team this year does not give the impression that they're as communicative and together as they could be.

anonymous-user

12 months

Tuesday 17th December 2019
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Ferrari recently discussed 2019:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.long-re...



Edited by Duns on Tuesday 17th December 12:12

TheDeuce

7,309 posts

24 months

Wednesday 15th January
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Just found this video which gives a fairly concise and balanced recap of Ferrari's 2019 season: https://youtu.be/M14_Ll9kLWk

He makes a good point towards the end; that Ferrari's drivers ended up just 24 points apart despite all the team orders. That could be indicative of the team orders and No1 status serving only to get in the way at this point, or it could be indicative of Charles being good enough and shrewd enough to get the job done in spite of vettel having more of an advantage. Either way it suggests to me that Ferrari's chances of getting either WDC/WCC would have been better had they dropped the nonsense and just let the driver's run their own season on their own merit.

Also good point about the driver's spending so much time arguing about being faster and needing the other to let them pass, that overall a Mercedes runs a better race pace and subsequently ends up in front of them both more often than not.

I don't expect it will happen, but I wish they would just drop the No1 driver concept. With two strong drivers, it feels more destructive to both of them than it is useful for the team. The driver's should be fighting on track to prove who is the real No1, not fighting with the pit wall over the radio to prove they should have the chance..

HTP99

17,152 posts

98 months

Wednesday 15th January
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TheDeuce said:
I don't expect it will happen, but I wish they would just drop the No1 driver concept. With two strong drivers, it feels more destructive to both of them than it is useful for the team. The driver's should be fighting on track to prove who is the real No1, not fighting with the pit wall over the radio to prove they should have the chance..
Agree, problem is I should imagine that Vettel has in his contract that he is the No.1, amongst other advantages for him.

TheDeuce

7,309 posts

24 months

Wednesday 15th January
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HTP99 said:
Agree, problem is I should imagine that Vettel has in his contract that he is the No.1, amongst other advantages for him.
I'm sure. Although you'd think there would be a performance clause alongside that. If he's given all the perks and still gets his pants pulled down by the new boy..

There may well be of course, I guess next season will reveal if his current contract = defacto No1 regardless of all else.

What really gets me, looking back, is that whatever drove Ferrari's strategic and No1 driver philosophy, it clearly hasn't worked in anyone's favour. Other than their competitors sometimes.

Flooble

2,377 posts

58 months

Wednesday 15th January
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TheDeuce said:
I'm sure. Although you'd think there would be a performance clause alongside that. If he's given all the perks and still gets his pants pulled down by the new boy..

There may well be of course, I guess next season will reveal if his current contract = defacto No1 regardless of all else.

What really gets me, looking back, is that whatever drove Ferrari's strategic and No1 driver philosophy, it clearly hasn't worked in anyone's favour. Other than their competitors sometimes.
Not really - the No1 driver philosophy worked very well during the Schumacher years and wasn't that bad during the Alonso years.

TheDeuce

7,309 posts

24 months

Wednesday 15th January
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Flooble said:
Not really - the No1 driver philosophy worked very well during the Schumacher years and wasn't that bad during the Alonso years.
That's the point - what works can change over time. If they wished vettel to be No1 they either underestimated leclerc's ability or didn't allow for how willing he was to defy orders and argue.

By choosing vettel as No1, both drivers end up frustrated. They could sack leclerc but even Ferrari don't want to sack off their actual best performing driver... They've engineered for themselves a tricky situation.

Also, in general I'm not convinced in modern F1 a defacto No1 is the best approach in general. No1 mid season for the best performer, fine. But choosing in advance and making it a contractual, irreversible decision.. I can see some benefits still but more cons.

FourWheelDrift

80,830 posts

242 months

Thursday 23rd January
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Oh dear "Ferrari's 2020 F1 car ‘worse than expected’ - reports" - https://www.crash.net/f1/news/935548/1/ferrari-s-2...

TheDeuce

7,309 posts

24 months

Thursday 23rd January
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FourWheelDrift said:
Oh dear "Ferrari's 2020 F1 car ‘worse than expected’ - reports" - https://www.crash.net/f1/news/935548/1/ferrari-s-2...
Nice quote in there that so far Mercedes 2020 is performing 'better than expected'... Fingers crossed this is all just rumour as I for one am tentatively looking forward to this season having three teams that can repeatedly contend for race wins. That said, AutoBild have got the story right plenty of times in the past and it's all too easy to believe that Mercedes will have the upper-hand come Melbourne.

Only a few weeks until pre-season testing, and once that's confused everyone about who is fast and who is not, only a couple more weeks until the first GP smile

Europa Jon

183 posts

81 months

Thursday 23rd January
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I wouldn't read too much into the headline story. It's a safe bet that William's will field a couple of turds again (the cars that is, not the drivers!) but all bets are off until the first GP, where we'll see them racing each other.