George Russell

[kiseca]

HustleRussell said:

He needs to do to Latifi what he has done to Kubica and he'll be in a Mercedes quicker than you can say "Sorry Valterri"...

[HustleRussell]

thegreenhell said:

HustleRussell said:

George is a Mercedes young driver, Valterri is not- Mercedes will need to promote George or risk losing him to the competition as they nearly did with Ocon.

Wolff has a professional relationship with Bottas but I'd imagine that the Mercedes backing Ocon and Russell have would trump that.

Mercedes backing of Ocon didn't trump anything, as demonstrated by him sitting in the garage all year, and then disappearing off to Renault next year, while Bottas continues in the Mercedes race car for another year.

In most cases, manufacturer-backed young driver programmes seem to be a career hindrance rather than a help. They bring drivers in to F1, but then because their incumbents hang around for an eternity the young guns rarely get a chance to drive for the team that paid for them to be there. Other manufacturers won't touch them because of their association to their rivals, as well as having their own young drivers-in-waiting, so they disappear into the backwaters of DTM or FE.

Mercedes still have Ocon on a piece of elastic.

[slipstream 1985]

Timing. if your number 2 is good enough ie bottas and your number 1 going nowhere then having a young rookie wasting away in a C team costs you nothing. Yes Russel is gaining track knowledge and operational knowledge but another year of that is pretty worthless where as the other two in relatively competative cars are learning the racecraft of f1 with others about them.

[oyster]

FourWheelDrift said:

Worth saying as well, how the 3 finished the 2018 F2 season.

1st George Russell - 287 points (7 wins, 3x 2nd, 1x 3rd)
2nd Lando Norris - 219 points (1 win, 4x 2nd, 4x 3rd)
3rd Alex Albon - 212 points (4 wins, 1x 2nd, 3x 3rd)

And they are now reversed in order in terms of competitive F1 car. They all deserve competitive cars.

That is the nature of professional sport.
Applies similarly in sports where external mechanical factors (e.g. the car) don't apply.

[mattikake]

FourWheelDrift said:

Worth saying as well, how the 3 finished the 2018 F2 season.

1st George Russell - 287 points (7 wins, 3x 2nd, 1x 3rd)
2nd Lando Norris - 219 points (1 win, 4x 2nd, 4x 3rd)
3rd Alex Albon - 212 points (4 wins, 1x 2nd, 3x 3rd)

And they are now reversed in order in terms of competitive F1 car. They all deserve competitive cars.

As ever, results don't tell the whole story. In Baku GR was leading he feature race comfortably but got taken out on a SC restart. He won the Baku sprint from 12th in he grid (extremely good going) so he would've certainly won the sprint race from 8th. Double wins are a rare achievement in f2 and is basically what's solely backing up giovinazzi's entry to f1...

Reliabilty problems in Bahrain too.

In Monaco he had an engine problem in quali and in the races which wrote that weekend off.

Hungary his car let him down in the feature race and so the wrote off the sprint too. Though he still came from the back to 8th iirc. That's Hungary.

So other than spa and silverstone (2nd and 2nd) he won in every round he competed. Albion and Norris being benefactors in his reliability issues.

Yet GR still won the championship with a race to spare. F2 that year wasn't as close as those results imply.

Edit: bloody phones!

Edited by mattikake on Tuesday 19th November 16:29

[isaldiri]

mattikake said:

So other than spa and silverstone (2nd and 2nd) he won in every round he competed. Albion and Norris being benefactors in his reliability issues.

Yet GR still won the championship with a race to spare. F2 that year wasn't as close as those results imply.

^ this. Thought you were a touch harsh on Norris earlier but Russell at least in F2 had shown himself to be definitely the better driver. Hopefully he gets the chance to do so in a more competitive F1 seat soon.

[37chevy]

isaldiri said:

^ this. Thought you were a touch harsh on Norris earlier but Russell at least in F2 had shown himself to be definitely the better driver. Hopefully he gets the chance to do so in a more competitive F1 seat soon.

Their junior careers make interesting reading. Russell slipped under the radar until f2 last year, didn’t really have that much success in f3, Norris on the other hand seemed to race in all sorts in his short Junior career and won pretty much everything....always seemed a little rushed into f2 though...with that said he’s shown that he has ample talent

[mattikake]

37chevy said:

isaldiri said:

^ this. Thought you were a touch harsh on Norris earlier but Russell at least in F2 had shown himself to be definitely the better driver. Hopefully he gets the chance to do so in a more competitive F1 seat soon.

Their junior careers make interesting reading. Russell slipped under the radar until f2 last year, didn’t really have that much success in f3, Norris on the other hand seemed to race in all sorts in his short Junior career and won pretty much everything....always seemed a little rushed into f2 though...with that said he’s shown that he has ample talent

Under your radar perhaps? GR only really got to shine come GP3 winning that fairly easily, but not as easily as he appeared to make F2 look. Until then he was under my radar too. He really came from nowhere in GP3 and surprised me. Maybe the only time in a talent spotting sense.

The problem with his earlier career was he kept switching teams mid-season or at last minute before the start of a season. Never a good way to find your feet. Still I'd expect more given how easy he made F2 look considering the F2/F3 talent pool around at the time - DeVries, Aitken, Latifi, Albon, Norris, Hubert (RIP), Sette Camera (who was getting the better of Norris in race and quali towards the end of the season).

Some drivers just blossom late(r) though. Could simply be he gets on well with the tight limit of high df cars.

I really don't rate Norris as much as everyone else seems to. He's good for a rich boy and would kick my ass of course, but he doesn't appear to have his balls in the right place when it comes to the on-track battle. Bit of a Dill tbh. He's British though so I'll cheer him like the rest.

[37chevy]

mattikake said:

Under your radar perhaps? GR only really got to shine come GP3 winning that fairly easily, but not as easily as he appeared to make F2 look. Until then he was under my radar too. He really came from nowhere in GP3 and surprised me. Maybe the only time in a talent spotting sense.

The problem with his earlier career was he kept switching teams mid-season or at last minute before the start of a season. Never a good way to find your feet. Still I'd expect more given how easy he made F2 look considering the F2/F3 talent pool around at the time - DeVries, Aitken, Latifi, Albon, Norris, Hubert (RIP), Sette Camera (who was getting the better of Norris in race and quali towards the end of the season).

Some drivers just blossom late(r) though. Could simply be he gets on well with the tight limit of high df cars.

I really don't rate Norris as much as everyone else seems to. He's good for a rich boy and would kick my ass of course, but he doesn't appear to have his balls in the right place when it comes to the on-track battle. Bit of a Dill tbh. He's British though so I'll cheer him like the rest.

Certainly under my radar...maybe he wasn’t promoted as much as others such as Norris, de vries or settle camera...or ticktum...certainly seems to have blossomed in gp2 though, and I’m glad he has

[JonChalk]

mattikake said:

..but he doesn't appear to have his balls in the right place when it comes to the on-track battle.

Have you watched his opening laps in Brazil (eg not taking st from LeClerc)? or USA?

Or overtaking around the outside on several occasions (France? for one)?

Now, I rate Russell as a faster driver and faster than Norris in the same car, I'll bet - much smoother and consistent than Norris was in F2 (Button quality, but also able to deal with a wider range of car set up imbalances), but Norris's F2 record was hampered by his desire to attack and overtake. His tyres generally lasted less well in comparison to Russell, and he didn't always think thru moves leading to place losses to people behind him when they didn't come off, or damage, etc.

I think he has made a conscious effort to dial that back in F1 and ensure that the car gets to the finish in the earliest races, but more recently has started relaxing that a bit.

Russell deserves better than Williams, but is well aware that the route to a better drive is to keep smashing his teammate out of the park. He does that next year to Latifi, and Merc will do well to keep him in the fold in a Williams - other teams will definitely be sniffing around.

[DanielSan]

oyster said:

FourWheelDrift said:

Worth saying as well, how the 3 finished the 2018 F2 season.

1st George Russell - 287 points (7 wins, 3x 2nd, 1x 3rd)
2nd Lando Norris - 219 points (1 win, 4x 2nd, 4x 3rd)
3rd Alex Albon - 212 points (4 wins, 1x 2nd, 3x 3rd)

And they are now reversed in order in terms of competitive F1 car. They all deserve competitive cars.

That is the nature of professional sport.
Applies similarly in sports where external mechanical factors (e.g. the car) don't apply.

There's always the question of when drivers hit their peak, Russell could have peaked in his F2 title year and Kubica really be utterly piss poor, or he's peaked now but is in the wrong car to show it while Norris and Albon are still improving. Along with numerous other permutations.

[TheDeuce]

JonChalk said:

Have you watched his opening laps in Brazil (eg not taking st from LeClerc)? or USA?

Or overtaking around the outside on several occasions (France? for one)?

Now, I rate Russell as a faster driver and faster than Norris in the same car, I'll bet - much smoother and consistent than Norris was in F2 (Button quality, but also able to deal with a wider range of car set up imbalances), but Norris's F2 record was hampered by his desire to attack and overtake. His tyres generally lasted less well in comparison to Russell, and he didn't always think thru moves leading to place losses to people behind him when they didn't come off, or damage, etc.

I think he has made a conscious effort to dial that back in F1 and ensure that the car gets to the finish in the earliest races, but more recently has started relaxing that a bit.

Russell deserves better than Williams, but is well aware that the route to a better drive is to keep smashing his teammate out of the park. He does that next year to Latifi, and Merc will do well to keep him in the fold in a Williams - other teams will definitely be sniffing around.

In theory as you say, if he beats Latifi then he is a proven talent, should be hot property. The only problem is, the other teams that used to come sniffing in such situations, have their own (or their senior teams) family of upcoming drivers - more than there are seats for. Way more in the last few years. And of course, Russell has to not just be proven by his work at Williams, but more proven than whoever he could displace or block from another team.

I offer no solution to this problem, it's just a sad fact that talent gets sidelined sometimes without always being given the chance to shine. The driver programs seem to have amplified that truth somewhat too.

He's a bloody likeable lad though, and I suspect is an above average talent - I do hope he finds a way out of Williams, although my head tells me that will require good fortune and circumstance in addition to hard work and proof of ability.

[Bradgate]

Russell has done everything he could in the Williams this season, except perhaps nick a point somewhere. He has completely dominated Kubica all year, but we now know that the Pole is a shadow of the driver he was before his accident.

George has driven consistently, kept it on the track and made very few glaring mistakes. That’s about all we can say about him until we see him up against an established benchmark team-mate. It would be interesting to see how he would get on against Perez in the pink car, but that seat is permanently occupied by Daddy’s boy.

[Mark-C]

Assuming they are staying in the sport for a while then what Mercedes are really looking for is a replacement for Hamilton. Bottas is fine for them whilst they have Hamilton. If Merecedes think Ocon\Russell\whoever is their next Hamilton then they need them out in an F1 car doing laps and getting experience which GR is doing. But if they seriously want to evaluate GR as a future #1 they need him further up the grid and that can't happen next year with the seats settled.

GR is a good driver (as are many on the grid) but it's hard to know how good he really is (above F2 level where he was great) without seeing him in a much better car - Merc could have made that happen given their money and contacts but chose not to and they seem to have chosen not to with Ocon.

From this side of the keyboard there are many speculative conclusions:

- Merc are leaving soon
- Merc know next years Williams is a world-beater
- Merc know Lewis isn't leaving until he has 10 WDCs
- GR is Ok but the people with the telemetary aren't completely blown away
- Ocon is world beater but was caught shagging Toto's mum
- Kubica is much much worse than expeced so GR isn't all that
- Merc will get GR into a McLaren for 2021 because they have Carlos lined up to replace Bottas

I suspect none of these are right

[Big Robbo]

Mark-C said:

Assuming they are staying in the sport for a while then what Mercedes are really looking for is a replacement for Hamilton. Bottas is fine for them whilst they have Hamilton. If Merecedes think Ocon\Russell\whoever is their next Hamilton then they need them out in an F1 car doing laps and getting experience which GR is doing. But if they seriously want to evaluate GR as a future #1 they need him further up the grid and that can't happen next year with the seats settled.

GR is a good driver (as are many on the grid) but it's hard to know how good he really is (above F2 level where he was great) without seeing him in a much better car - Merc could have made that happen given their money and contacts but chose not to and they seem to have chosen not to with Ocon.

From this side of the keyboard there are many speculative conclusions:

- Merc are leaving soon
- Merc know next years Williams is a world-beater
- Merc know Lewis isn't leaving until he has 10 WDCs
- GR is Ok but the people with the telemetary aren't completely blown away
- Ocon is world beater but was caught shagging Toto's mum
- Kubica is much much worse than expeced so GR isn't all that
- Merc will get GR into a McLaren for 2021 because they have Carlos lined up to replace Bottas

I suspect none of these are right

I reckon that you are 50% correct on 25%of that list.....

[DanielSan]

Sainz ending up in a Mercedes or Ferrari wouldn't be a shock, him and Hamilton have been the class above everyone this season. No matter where Sainz has qualified he always seems to end up ahead of Formula B, in a lot if races by a big margin as well. Red Bull must regret at least a small bit that they've let him go.

[kiseca]

DanielSan said:

Sainz ending up in a Mercedes or Ferrari wouldn't be a shock, him and Hamilton have been the class above everyone this season. No matter where Sainz has qualified he always seems to end up ahead of Formula B, in a lot if races by a big margin as well. Red Bull must regret at least a small bit that they've let him go.

I do wonder how much better the McLaren is this year than last year too, because Sainz is looking hot, but so is Norris - if perhaps not as consistent.

I do wonder what Verstappen or Hamilton would manage in that car, if they'd make Sainz look impressive or ordinary. But I'll never know.

EDIT: Or maybe it's just a car that's a good match for Sainz and he can shine in it.

[Lebo44]

Tomorrow Valtteri and George will drive the same program in Mercedes car. Toto Wolff said it won't be a benchmark test for George but can we believe him? Bottas' contract ends in 2020.

[cuprabob]

Lebo44 said:

Tomorrow Valtteri and George will drive the same program in Mercedes car. Toto Wolff said it won't be a benchmark test for George but can we believe him? Bottas' contract ends in 2020.

Maybe they will be team mates in 2021 when Lewis jumps ship or retires

[Lebo44]

cuprabob said:

Maybe they will be team mates in 2021 when Lewis jumps ship or retires

yeah, that's another possibility