F1 not "Woke" enough
Discussion
coppice said:
The name of Mike Beuttler is not high up in the F1 pantheon but he was a handy enough driver in a March in the early 70s. Popular guy , but who never did come out - he died of Aids in LA - and I suspect in those less enlightened times he simply felt unable to do so. See also ERA/BRM man Raymond Mays .
I loved the cars of those times but am glad we have moved on from that era as a society.
This 'was' the problem.. supressed not by F1, but the wider world. Whatever his internal conflicts, I bet he wasn't thinking about them whilst racing.I loved the cars of those times but am glad we have moved on from that era as a society.
In the modern world, if a driver came out I believe it wouldn't make any difference to the team - other than they would hype it to a certain crowd perhaps, and possibly different sponsors might suddenly show interest. That's the cynical marketing aspect thought. The F1 aspect is that the fastest driver gets the drive.
Same as 70 years ago. If it goes faster say yes to it. Doesn't matter if it's a new suspension part or a different human. The answer is always yes if it works.
The only time the teams can't say yes is if regs disallow it - and F1 is one of a a few sports that has never made rules about who can compete. Never been a factor since day one!
Edited by TheDeuce on Friday 14th February 23:09
jimPH said:
TheDeuce said:
BenjiS said:
Do you honestly believe that women and LGBTQ+ folks get exactly the same opportunities in motorsport at all levels, that straight men do?
Everyone needs an opportunity to prove they’re good enough, even in a meritocracy. If opportunity is withheld, then there discrimination, intentional or otherwise, present.
Quite rightly in motorsport, there isn’t equality of outcome, but there should be equality of opportunity.
Crystal clear to me. Whatever self identification the upcoming drivers might make at some point, they would have started in karts at an age before 99.99% would think about such things. If they're already proven faster than average and maintain that as they grow, they're going to keep being selected.Everyone needs an opportunity to prove they’re good enough, even in a meritocracy. If opportunity is withheld, then there discrimination, intentional or otherwise, present.
Quite rightly in motorsport, there isn’t equality of outcome, but there should be equality of opportunity.
Performance. Performance. Performance.
Lance Stroll
Maldonardo
We've also got a crop of juniors who had fast dad's.
threespires said:
"She was the first known British person to undergo sex reassignment surgery.""By 1939, she owned three cars and had competed in the 1939 Antwerp Grand Prix."
So what the article should have said was: Motorsport is so incredibly 'woke' that it attracted a trans driver, before most people knew trans existed.
Rubbish article - I'm fed up of seeing/reading/hearing about 'woke'.....
If someone has talent, and more importantly the money & connections, then they may well make it in motorsport. It won't really matter what they are.....
Honestly, there are plenty of talented drivers sitting on their backsides at the moment.....that annoys me more than any other perceived issues.
If someone has talent, and more importantly the money & connections, then they may well make it in motorsport. It won't really matter what they are.....
Honestly, there are plenty of talented drivers sitting on their backsides at the moment.....that annoys me more than any other perceived issues.
Pericoloso said:
TheDeuce said:
MOTORSPORT is one of a few sports that has never made rules about who can compete. Never been a factor since day one!
FTFYThere is life outside your F1 bubble.
To be honest you're right. Other than women's own sports series it is generally the case that anyone is allowed, even if in reality they aren't interested or fail to make the grade for whatever reason.
Guilty as charged though - F1 is my only real sport interest. It's a unique sport and the only one that appeals to me.
Motorsport suffers heavily from gender bias. If you’re unlucky enough to have a dick, the chances are you’re screwed.
I’ve shared grids with a few girls when karting as a young wannabe- can honestly say I was never beaten by any of them (I was far from being the fastest myself). Doing the British 24hr, Le Mans 24hr and Daytona MK 24hr last year I went wheel to wheel with a number of ‘high profile’ girls, one of whom took me out spectacularly at Le Mans as I attempted to put a lap on her
Of the few that stick in my mind, the lass who took me out because she didn’t like being lapped (or had feck all spacial awareness)- got a GT4 drive, one made good headway through the Ginetta ranks.. and one won the W series at a canter. Mostly wafted through the ranks with a good amount of sponsorship money, and instant free exposure, mediocrity or not, for being a guuuuuuuurl.
Before this becomes too negative, one girl I will vouch for is Selina Balneger, who showed me along with 92 others a clean pair of heels at BRKC 2020- going fast indoors is ninja science as far as I’m concerned and she drove beautifully.
I’m not bitter.. okay, yes I am a bit, but it stings when people attack motorsport with this equal opportunities bulls
t. If opportunities were equal there would be a lot less women capable of funding drives that any bloke would give his bks for!
I’ve shared grids with a few girls when karting as a young wannabe- can honestly say I was never beaten by any of them (I was far from being the fastest myself). Doing the British 24hr, Le Mans 24hr and Daytona MK 24hr last year I went wheel to wheel with a number of ‘high profile’ girls, one of whom took me out spectacularly at Le Mans as I attempted to put a lap on her
Of the few that stick in my mind, the lass who took me out because she didn’t like being lapped (or had feck all spacial awareness)- got a GT4 drive, one made good headway through the Ginetta ranks.. and one won the W series at a canter. Mostly wafted through the ranks with a good amount of sponsorship money, and instant free exposure, mediocrity or not, for being a guuuuuuuurl.
Before this becomes too negative, one girl I will vouch for is Selina Balneger, who showed me along with 92 others a clean pair of heels at BRKC 2020- going fast indoors is ninja science as far as I’m concerned and she drove beautifully.
I’m not bitter.. okay, yes I am a bit, but it stings when people attack motorsport with this equal opportunities bulls
t. If opportunities were equal there would be a lot less women capable of funding drives that any bloke would give his bks for!longblackcoat said:
Absolutely. That all-female BTCC lineup is infuriating.
I’m struggling to see your point. Are we suggesting that there’s some sort of sexist agenda going on within the BTCC?Or could it simply be that few, or no, women have been talented enough to get to that level and decided that they see themselves saloon car racing in a domestic series rather than an open wheel, European or international series?
I’ve not suggested that motorsport is saturated with women- it’s quite the opposite, there are very few, which may just be a factor in why there aren’t any in BTCC. But at this point in time there are more opportunities afforded to women than to men, there just aren’t many women choosing to pursue motorsport.
For clarification on my position, I’m all for equal opportunities- in fact I’m quite happy to see women being given a leg up into the sport, it’s great to have women in motorsport. But I won’t tolerate accusations of sexism levelled at the sport because I’ve been through the grassroots and seen mediocre drivers given opportunities that talented others could only wish for, for the sake of making motorsport all warm and fluffy and PR-friendly. The doors are already open, is that not enough? Where does it end, artificially bolstering every series’ grid with any girl who’s ever passed an ARDS, just so they can be there?
Personally I think there are bad drivers, good ones, even s
t ones and great ones- whether they’re male or female makes no difference. Any woman who can hold her own is more than welcome to share a grid with me. In fact in a previous life my very race car was a championship winner driven by Gail Hill- now there’s a proper racer. Throwing a 1400kg Jag around like it’s nothing, and beating the boys on a level playing field. I doubt she was ever given any special treatment because of her gender, I doubt she wanted any.F1 is a sport where if you are good enough you will get a job. Simple as that. I don't think a team boss is going to tell Adrian Newey (IF he came out as gay, not suggesting he is at all but have to pick a person to make the point!!) - sorry pal you are openly gay we don't want you designing our cars. Hell no. You see female engineers, you have seen a female team principal or two, you see female mechanics, you see female strategists.........
I should add the exception to "good enough" can be driving, where adequate but with money (from sponsors, daddy or elsewhere) can result in a drive...
I should add the exception to "good enough" can be driving, where adequate but with money (from sponsors, daddy or elsewhere) can result in a drive...
I was at the inaugural LMES race in November 2003. The TVRs had an all female crew, Amanda Stretton, Liz Halliday and Fanny Duchateau. The last, Fanny, was class. She impressed the mechanics with her speed, ability to keep out of trouble while maintaining consistent lap times, and being able to drive to a lap speed requested. At one point she was signaled to go all out, and the next lap she was at her limit. When she was told, a couple of laps later, to return to plan A, her speed dropped instantly and she hit the lap time the following lap.
As I say, she was class.
The mechanics said that none of the male drivers in the other pits, let alone the other TVR, would have dropped lap times so quickly (if at all according to one). When talking with Amanda, she was of the opinion that it was unlikely that women would be able to challenge men because of physical differences, and that includes thing such as stress response. However, she reckoned that in motorsports where stress response could cause problems (it's my corner), women should have the advantage over men.
In the late 1980s I saw one of the most exciting 90 minutes of motor racing I've ever seen. It was at Donington. It was a 6-hour race. The Jags took on the Mercs, at least for the first quarter. It was great fun to watch, awe-inspiring in fact, but one wonders what would have happened if the drivers had, on occasion, conceded a corner and spared the car.
Fanny left motor racing, reports suggest to have children. That, of course, is another differentiation between men and women.
The idea that men and women can be equal in all sports has been argued against, and often by those in the know. Equestrian events, have men and women competing largely on equal terms, and have both male and female success. Boxing less so.
One has to ask whether the demands of driving high G for 90 mins means that women are at a disadvantage in F1. If so, then there is an option: alter the efficiency of brakes, grip and such-like.
As I say, she was class.
The mechanics said that none of the male drivers in the other pits, let alone the other TVR, would have dropped lap times so quickly (if at all according to one). When talking with Amanda, she was of the opinion that it was unlikely that women would be able to challenge men because of physical differences, and that includes thing such as stress response. However, she reckoned that in motorsports where stress response could cause problems (it's my corner), women should have the advantage over men.
In the late 1980s I saw one of the most exciting 90 minutes of motor racing I've ever seen. It was at Donington. It was a 6-hour race. The Jags took on the Mercs, at least for the first quarter. It was great fun to watch, awe-inspiring in fact, but one wonders what would have happened if the drivers had, on occasion, conceded a corner and spared the car.
Fanny left motor racing, reports suggest to have children. That, of course, is another differentiation between men and women.
The idea that men and women can be equal in all sports has been argued against, and often by those in the know. Equestrian events, have men and women competing largely on equal terms, and have both male and female success. Boxing less so.
One has to ask whether the demands of driving high G for 90 mins means that women are at a disadvantage in F1. If so, then there is an option: alter the efficiency of brakes, grip and such-like.
CanoeSniffer said:
longblackcoat said:
Absolutely. That all-female BTCC lineup is infuriating.
I’m struggling to see your point. Are we suggesting that there’s some sort of sexist agenda going on within the BTCC?Look at the grid for just about every class of racing - other than W Series, obviously - and you'll see very few women.
My post was merely to draw attention to the fact that BTCC (just as an example) is resolutely male-centric. I don't recall ever seeing a female driver. Maybe that's because women aren't good enough, maybe it's because of opportunities ...... dunno, and I'm not getting into that now.
But to say that "If you're unlucky enough to have a dick, the chances are you're screwed" is palpably silly.
longblackcoat said:
But to say that "If you're unlucky enough to have a dick, the chances are you're screwed" is palpably silly.
Hyperbole.And in the grand scheme, correct. How many youngsters getting into motorsport end up where they envisioned when they started? I’d say most of them are on a hiding to nothing- screwed, if you like.
Lots of people quite rightly pointing out that if a woman came at least close enough to making the grade, the PR and subsequent sponsorship would do the rest. The fact that hasn't happened raises a question of just how far off the mark potential female drivers have been. I honestly have no theory as to what causes the differential in performance. I'm aware that FW is designed to get more women driving, which is great. But realistically there have been women driving karts from a young age for a very long time and by now one or two should have converted to F1 (I know a handful have in the history of the sport but none remotely recent).
It feels like the door is not just open, but a few teams would perhaps prefer a woman to walk through it rather than another man, the PR would be immense. I'm sure liberty would love it too. So... Can't understand why it's still not happened. Is it that the performance gulf is just to big? If so, why should that be?
It feels like the door is not just open, but a few teams would perhaps prefer a woman to walk through it rather than another man, the PR would be immense. I'm sure liberty would love it too. So... Can't understand why it's still not happened. Is it that the performance gulf is just to big? If so, why should that be?
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