Formula 1 Pre-season Testing February 2020

[TheDeuce]

super7 said:

Did you design it? Are you a secret Mercedes engineer??

This would be a piece of piss to retrofit as it' must basically be a 'fly by wire' steering rack with actuators acting independently on each toe rod. !! Could be instantly outlawed by stating that the the toe-rods need to be controlled as one rather than independantly. I'd say far from Traditional steering!!!

Within the confines of the very tight body surfaces of an F1 car, retro fitting anything that wasn't envisaged at the start would be very difficult indeed.

The rods are still controlled 'as one' surely? Just instead of push/pull as one, it's pull in/push out as one as well. Doesn't need to be fly by wire, just a 2nd axis of movement on the wheel to achieve the movement. Could be fly by wire, could be entirely mechanical linkage. Whatever it is, are you saying that if you open up the body work on any of the other cars on the grid it would be a 'piece of piss' to find the space and range of movement required to simply bolt the same solution on? I highly doubt anyone trying to do that would get the job done and describe it as a piece of piss..

Yes it could be outlawed for a future season, but as with past innovations, it's virtually always the case that if the car meets the regs when it's introduced, it can run as it is until the following season where the regs can be tightened up.

[kambites]

On principle it seems like it'd be fairly easy to achieve - I dare say they have a more elegant implementation but one primitive way to do it would be to mount the rack on tracks so it can slide forwards and backwards in the chassis then have a set of link rods from the ends of the rack going through some sort of bearing setup mounted on the chassis or even straight to the track rods if you could hold the rack perpendicular to the car well enough. Then as the rack moves closer to being in-line with the bearings/track rods, the ends of the track rods are pushed outwards; as it is pulled/pushed away from being inline, they are pulled inwards.

Obviously a design which involved the steering rack physically moving longitudinally in the car would require quite a lot of space. Could it be retro-fitted? probably not without re-designing the crash structure at the front of the tub, are you allowed to do that mid-season?

Edited by kambites on Thursday 20th February 11:37

[TheDeuce]

One aspect of this that deserves some recognition perhaps... Lewis is now steering in '3D'.

Whilst also adjusting brake bias and discussing the results with his engineer over the radio. And these guys get blamed for not checking their mirrors at the same time!

[Munter]

I'd think that's a mechanical solution that uses the steering wheel to adjust the steering angle of the front wheels. I don't know the regs but it's the sort of thing I'd think they allow as nobody thought of stopping it. I suspect there is a regulation stopping it being done with a button/paddle. But given it's a movement of the steering wheel...well that's what you have to do to adjust the steering.

I salute the person who proposed it. A real "well why didn't anybody do that before" moment.

[bobbo89]

kambites said:

On principle it seems like it'd be fairly easy to achieve - I dare say they have a more elegant implementation but one primitive way to do it would be to mount the rack on tracks so it can slide forwards and backwards in the chassis then have a set of link rods from the ends of the rack going through some sort of bearing setup mounted on the chassis. Then as the rack moves closer to being in-line with the bearings, the ends of the track rods are pushed outwards; as it is pulled/pushed away from being inline, they are pulled inwards.

This is what I'm thinking as surely the adjustment needs to be made in a way that doesn't interfere with steering input. So in affect you can still steer normally but also adjust the toe in one linear motion, both systems can work together as they operate on two different axis.

Edited by bobbo89 on Thursday 20th February 11:41

[Graveworm]

Bottas is in the car later - I think it's just flushing number 2s into the pedal box.

[kambites]

Munter said:

I suspect there is a regulation stopping it being done with a button/paddle.

Yes, there is. The regs state that with the steering wheel held still, the only way to move the front wheels must be via the upwards and downwards movement of the suspension. A requirement which this system appears to meet.

[Supersam83]

This is why I love F1 testing because of spotting these new loopholes that the teams try and find and exploit.

Also the reaction of the other teams wondering why they didn't come up with these ideas...

Maybe focusing everyone on the front of the car stops everyone snooping and looking at the rear of the car where the real trickery is happening

[super7]

TheDeuce said:

Within the confines of the very tight body surfaces of an F1 car, retro fitting anything that wasn't envisaged at the start would be very difficult indeed.

The rods are still controlled 'as one' surely? Just instead of push/pull as one, it's pull in/push out as one as well. Doesn't need to be fly by wire, just a 2nd axis of movement on the wheel to achieve the movement. Could be fly by wire, could be entirely mechanical linkage. Whatever it is, are you saying that if you open up the body work on any of the other cars on the grid it would be a 'piece of piss' to find the space and range of movement required to simply bolt the same solution on? I highly doubt anyone trying to do that would get the job done and describe it as a piece of piss..

Yes it could be outlawed for a future season, but as with past innovations, it's virtually always the case that if the car meets the regs when it's introduced, it can run as it is until the following season where the regs can be tightened up.

I've designed loads of F1 cars .... and i'm sure that Mercedes will have built this system into the confines of their Steering rack. They are not going to stick something on that gives a marginal gain, against the overall aerodynamic design of the tub or driver space in the footwell especially as it could be banned by race 1.

I'm sure the rods are controlled mechanically lengthening/shortening the toe rods. I don't think anything here is rocket science and I don't think it would take much to retrofit. We'll see anyway....

(actually i've not designed any F1 cars!)

[TheDeuce]

kambites said:

Yes, there is. The regs state that with the steering wheel held still, the only way to move the front wheels must be via the upwards and downwards movement of the suspension.

Which this system complies with. Clever. A small re-wording would instantly outlaw this system, but as the regs stand... legal.

[kambites]

TheDeuce said:

One aspect of this that deserves some recognition perhaps... Lewis is now steering in '3D'.

It's certainly going ot add an extra dimension to what the driver can do. There's obviously an advantage to be had simply using one position on the straights and one in the corners but presumably beyond that it is theoretically possible to control the balance of the car mid-corner by adjusting the toe in response to what the chassis is doing.

[Supersam83]

Ted Kravitz said:

"A senior source at Mercedes has confirmed that a) we’re not imagining it, the trombone steering, b) it’s something that’s on the car and not ostensibly something just for testing and c) it’s a steering mode. So, it’s another element of what the steering can do.

"In the way that Mercedes do, and they’re so clever, they thought ‘maybe we can do something like the way the steering changes the ride-height when it’s on full lock’ in different track conditions."

Mercedes have confirmed that it exists...

Edited by Supersam83 on Thursday 20th February 11:56

[TheDeuce]

super7 said:

I've designed loads of F1 cars .... and i'm sure that Mercedes will have built this system into the confines of their Steering rack. They are not going to stick something on that gives a marginal gain, against the overall aerodynamic design of the tub or driver space in the footwell especially as it could be banned by race 1.

I'm sure the rods are controlled mechanically lengthening/shortening the toe rods. I don't think anything here is rocket science and I don't think it would take much to retrofit. We'll see anyway....

(actually i've not designed any F1 cars!)

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying the system needs to be bulky or will have sacrificed the aero surfaces of Mercedes car - but only because they built it in 'day one'. To add it in as an after thought to a current car that wasn't designed to achieve the same would be far more difficult. As you say, the small dynamic benefit wouldn't be worth upsetting the overall aero design of the car, but realistically some surfaces would likely need to change either to allow the system to be retro-fitted or allow for the small additional range of movement of the rods.

[Munter]

Rather than aero benefit, the piece on the F1 site is talking about creating a more even tyre temperature/taking the temp away from the "normal" contact patch to avoid it overheating.

[DaveTheRave87]

I'd expect someone, most likely Ferrari, to ask the FIA to clarify if the toe angle is considered part of the steering or part of the suspension.

[TheDeuce]

Munter said:

Rather than aero benefit, the piece on the F1 site is talking about creating a more even tyre temperature/taking the temp away from the "normal" contact patch to avoid it overheating.

I don't see an aero effect as such. But cornering toe out and tyre wear, and by extension removing the toe and straightening the wheels for the straights, are both connected to tyre wear. If you have a permanent toe out setup (as per most track cars), then it's great in the twisties but on the straights your wheels are still toe'd out and you're subsequently 'scrubbing' the tyre across the track as it rotates. Straighten them out = less wear.

An interesting aspect is that the front tyres could be more quickly heated and 'switched on' by deliberately running toe out down the straights to increase the rolling resistance. the driver could use this system as a benefit in more than one way.

[kambites]

Less mechanical drag too, as well as a way to manually control the tyre surface temperatures on the straight. Might be useful for things like safety car restarts.

[Deesee]

Think of the additional kinetic energy it will put into the MGU K.... as well as the aero advantages (suspension must not be designed for aero its a by product)...

[TheDeuce]

DaveTheRave87 said:

I'd expect someone, most likely Ferrari, to ask the FIA to clarify if the toe angle is considered part of the steering or part of the suspension.

All teams choose their own toe angle though, it's just that Mercedes drivers can now alter it manually as they drive. It's most definitely steering not suspension (although worth adding that all steering adjustments on all cars will alter the suspension behaviour).

As for a Ferrari specifically - they seem to be busy with their own car right now, whatever the issue is they keep fiddling with behind their 'human screen'..

[rdjohn]

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.tech-in...

Possible explanation from Mark Hughes