F1 cancelled this year?

[anonymous-user]

TheDeuce said:

How do you account for a sustained PU/component failure rate higher than Renault themselves?

Poor supplier quality control, supplier not providing to the spec supplied which the car was designed around leading to higher failure rate, luck of the draw. You could list hundreds of reasons.

It's silly to compare McLaren and Torro Rosso's engine stats with their respective Honda program, Torro Rosso built a car which they knew had a wider operating window to enable more development towards the Red Bull era, they also benefited from the learning during the McLaren years.

[TheDeuce]

jsf said:

Poor supplier quality control, supplier not providing to the spec supplied which the car was designed around leading to higher failure rate, luck of the draw. You could list hundreds of reasons.

It's silly to compare McLaren and Torro Rosso's engine stats with their respective Honda program, Torro Rosso built a car which they knew had a wider operating window to enable more development towards the Red Bull era, they also benefited from the learning during the McLaren years.

You are touching on the very reasons I stated for McLaren struggling when you popped up and told me they were fully on top of their PU integration.

They aren't. I fully imagine they haven't had the best service or reliable two way development with Honda or Renault because they haven't forged that relationship as tentatively and carefully as Red Bull - via TR in the first year.

McLaren had 3 years with Honda. Year one could have been a learning year (which RB had via TR) and year two should have been the equivalent of what RB had last year. It was not.

What can I say..? I agree with you. They have struggled with PU integration as they haven't formed as strong of a partnership with their suppliers as others have done. I agree they also failed to learn year one and apply year two - by which time they were already making critical noises = goodbye relationship. I agree we can't compare McLaren with Honda to RB with Honda, because they misjudged how to extract the best from such a partnership.

I agree with you about all the above reasons as to why McLaren have consistently failed to get fully on top of integration and management of the PU in the hybrid era. I implore you to read back and agree with yourself

[anonymous-user]

You're mental.

[cosicave]

jsf said:

You're mental.

[MiniMan64]

So with the arrival of this weekend is this thread officially dead?

[TwentyFive]

MiniMan64 said:

So with the arrival of this weekend is this thread officially dead?

Based on the very last minute issues in Melbourne I would hold off on that until we actually get the green light in the pit lane for FP1 on Friday!

[TheDeuce]

jsf said:

You're mental.

I'm disappointed. Yet I remain polite at least.

[BrettMRC]

jsf said:

Poor supplier quality control, supplier not providing to the spec supplied which the car was designed around leading to higher failure rate, luck of the draw. You could list hundreds of reasons.

It's silly to compare McLaren and Torro Rosso's engine stats with their respective Honda program, Torro Rosso built a car which they knew had a wider operating window to enable more development towards the Red Bull era, they also benefited from the learning during the McLaren years.

Spot on, McLaren have always "gone their own way" with car design and integration - it's why they have had so much success in the past, and also why they end up down the wrong hole from time to time. It's also why they can be a PITA to work with as they often can't adjust to other companies ways of working.

When it goes right, it's awesome and they dominate - when it's going wrong they need a big stick to readjust their thinking.

McLaren I think are now finally coming out of the Ron era, which means they should start to play better with others - but they still retain the ethos and the infrastructure to make fast progress. (On the flip side, this is why Williams are so badly in a hole now - they can't or won't change, and if they don't adapt soon they will die)

[TheDeuce]

BrettMRC said:

Spot on, McLaren have always "gone their own way" with car design and integration - it's why they have had so much success in the past, and also why they end up down the wrong hole from time to time. It's also why they can be a PITA to work with as they often can't adjust to other companies ways of working.

When it goes right, it's awesome and they dominate - when it's going wrong they need a big stick to readjust their thinking.

McLaren I think are now finally coming out of the Ron era, which means they should start to play better with others - but they still retain the ethos and the infrastructure to make fast progress. (On the flip side, this is why Williams are so badly in a hole now - they can't or won't change, and if they don't adapt soon they will die)

Exactly my view too. Their car last year was excellent in many ways but just imagine the extra points if there has been less PU reliability issues? And to limit those they need to enhance two way learning between themselves and their supplier. If they did that, they shouldn't still be having such a disproportionately high number of PU issues.

[Durzel]

Simoncelli58 said:

And just to square the circle -

If Hamilton doesn't win the short 2020 championship through bad luck , mechanical breakdown and Max punting off the track ..................despite being the fastest .

Do you honestly think his fans will simply say 'Thats racing , it was the same for everyone '

I think not .

2020 will always be remembered for being a very strange season .

I think there will always be "if there had been just X more races, Y would've closed the gap" hypotheticals with such a dramatically different season.

What I do think is a massive shame is the outright admission from Ferrari that their car won't be competitive. I would've liked to have seen Vettel go for broke in what seems likely to be his last season.

[Munter]

Durzel said:

I would've liked to have seen Vettel go for broke in what seems likely to be his last season.

I suspect most of the other teams don't want to spend that much money repairing the damage Vettel would cause in this scenario.

I will push, oh I spun. Spun again. Collected a bunch of cars. Spun again. I'm a F1 god don't you know now bow down before my magnificence. Oops, spun on the way out the carpark.

[shirt]

My 2p: If merc/ham are dominant they’ll continue that form into the final season of the current regs, hence I think this is Hamilton’s best chance of becoming 9x WDC and this eclipsing all the records, having no unfinished business In His head, and Paving the way for retirement and a career as biggy H the rap star .

[TheDeuce]

shirt said:

My 2p: If merc/ham are dominant they’ll continue that form into the final season of the current regs, hence I think this is Hamilton’s best chance of becoming 9x WDC and this eclipsing all the records, having no unfinished business In His head, and Paving the way for retirement and a career as biggy H the rap star .

This would be his 7th title, next year his 8th - then that is the end of the current regs.

Still impressive, but where does the 9th title come from?

[anonymous-user]

TheDeuce said:

jsf said:

You're mental.

I'm disappointed. Yet I remain polite at least.

It's the only response to that diarrhoea I'm afraid.

You continue to push a narrative you have no way to prove, it's bizarre.

[TheDeuce]

jsf said:

TheDeuce said:

jsf said:

You're mental.

I'm disappointed. Yet I remain polite at least.

It's the only response to that diarrhoea I'm afraid.

You continue to push a narrative you have no way to prove, it's bizarre.

Happy to debate further if you cut short the insults.

When you told me McLaren were fully on top of their PU integration - can you provide evidence of that? Your latter posts suggest that due to the type of supplier relationship they had compared of the likes of RB/TR, they can't be expected to do as well with their PU reliability. So McLaren are fully on top if it, but others with the same PU are 'more' fully on top of it?

[anonymous-user]

PU parts used at the start of the last race of 2019

ICE Internal Combustion Engine TC Turbo Charger
MGU-H Motor Generator Unit – Heat MGU-K Motor Generator Unit – Kinetic

N° Car Driver ICE TC MGU-H MGU-K
33 RBR Honda Max Verstappen 5 4 4 3 = 16
23 RBR Honda Alexander Albon 5 5 5 4 = 19
26 Toro Rosso Honda Daniil Kvyat 7 7 7 6 = 27
10 Toro Rosso Honda Pierre Gasly 7 5 5 5 = 22
Total Honda replacements = 84

03 Renault Daniel Ricciardo 5 4 4 4 = 17
27 Renault Nico Hülkenberg 6 4 4 3 = 17
55 McLaren Renault Carlos Sainz 6 5 5 5 = 21
04 McLaren Renault Lando Norris 4 4 4 4 = 16
Total Renault replacements = 71

Total ICE unit changes
RBR = 10
TR = 14
Renault = 11
McLaren = 10

Most reliable total units used over the season
Joint between Lando Norris and Max Verstappen = 16 units

Most reliable ICE over the season
Lando Norris = 4 units

Most reliable team ICE over the season
Joint between RBR and McLaren = 10 units

[Big Nanas]

That’s very interesting, thanks jsf.

[TheDeuce]

jsf said:

PU parts used at the start of the last race of 2019

ICE Internal Combustion Engine TC Turbo Charger
MGU-H Motor Generator Unit – Heat MGU-K Motor Generator Unit – Kinetic

N° Car Driver ICE TC MGU-H MGU-K
33 RBR Honda Max Verstappen 5 4 4 3 = 16
23 RBR Honda Alexander Albon 5 5 5 4 = 19
26 Toro Rosso Honda Daniil Kvyat 7 7 7 6 = 27
10 Toro Rosso Honda Pierre Gasly 7 5 5 5 = 22
Total Honda replacements = 84

03 Renault Daniel Ricciardo 5 4 4 4 = 17
27 Renault Nico Hülkenberg 6 4 4 3 = 17
55 McLaren Renault Carlos Sainz 6 5 5 5 = 21
04 McLaren Renault Lando Norris 4 4 4 4 = 16
Total Renault replacements = 71

Total ICE unit changes
RBR = 10
TR = 14
Renault = 11
McLaren = 10

Most reliable total units used over the season
Joint between Lando Norris and Max Verstappen = 16 units

Most reliable ICE over the season
Lando Norris = 4 units

Most reliable team ICE over the season
Joint between RBR and McLaren = 10 units

Thank you. I see where you're coming from. I do think there is more to read in to that though:

- The comparison between Renault and Honda PU's in 2019 isn't very useful, as Red Bull have been using TR to effectively see when it goes pop, to better judge their own usage. The sheer number of ICE and TC TR have burned through demonstrates as much. RB then also took a few penalties at circuits they had no real chance at - I think it's important to differentiate between a PU component swap, and a PU component melt down causing a DNF.

- The better comparison is directly between Renault's team and McLaren. As you point out, there isn't much in it - unless you look at the ES & CE figures. I did post those earlier, but here they are again:

Renault 5 x ES, 7 x CE
McLaren 9 x ES, 8 x CE



Those figures are excluded from your post yet are relevant - as part of handling the modern hybrid PU is the challenge of keeping all parts of an interdependent system cool and functional. The result of not doing so is generally a retirement DNF.

The partnership RB have with Honda allows them to deep dive in to all aspects of how both of these components are best supported and integrated, along with the specific Honda PU components, to limit the probability of DNF. McLaren don't seem to be able to yield the same results overall.

McLaren did DNF 8 times to Renault's 6 last year. Compared to I think 3 total for Red Bull, just for comparison - given that McLaren had far more in their first and second year with Honda.

You're right when you say I can't provide absolute evidence that McLaren continue to struggle with hybrid PU integration and management. But looking at the component usage and breakdowns, I think it's a reasonable conclusion to draw. They have had more PU related failures than Renault.

[Deesee]

Nice discussion up there @duece & @jsf.. top posting, good reading.

[TheDeuce]

Deesee said:

Nice discussion up there @duece & @jsf.. top posting, good reading.

It's fascinating to look deeply at the PU component burn rate, and then consider how soundly McLaren managed to beat Renault in spite of the difference. It shows how far the McLaren car is ahead of Renault. And that is very poignant going in to this season, as the Renault car is one of the least evolved.