F1 cancelled this year?

F1 cancelled this year?

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TheDeuce

8,511 posts

29 months

Wednesday 1st July 2020
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jsf said:
McLaren were the best of the rest last year and beat the works Renault team.

They are on top of the PU.
They did a lot better last season, on various levels. But they also used more PU parts than Renault did on their own two cars. I wouldn't say they were entirely on top of the PU when there is another team using the same PU and suffering less issues with it.

McLaren designed a superior car, good enough to beat Renault in-spite of multiple PU related DNF's and forced extra parts usage and penalties.

jsf

21,712 posts

199 months

Wednesday 1st July 2020
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
They did a lot better last season, on various levels. But they also used more PU parts than Renault did on their own two cars. I wouldn't say they were entirely on top of the PU when there is another team using the same PU and suffering less issues with it.

McLaren designed a superior car, good enough to beat Renault in-spite of multiple PU related DNF's and forced extra parts usage and penalties.
Your mental gymnastics must be exhausting.

There was no problem with the PU integration, Renault engines just go bang too often.

TheDeuce

8,511 posts

29 months

Wednesday 1st July 2020
quotequote all
jsf said:
TheDeuce said:
They did a lot better last season, on various levels. But they also used more PU parts than Renault did on their own two cars. I wouldn't say they were entirely on top of the PU when there is another team using the same PU and suffering less issues with it.

McLaren designed a superior car, good enough to beat Renault in-spite of multiple PU related DNF's and forced extra parts usage and penalties.
Your mental gymnastics must be exhausting.

There was no problem with the PU integration, Renault engines just go bang too often.
It does take some effort to think things through, I can appreciate it's easier to settle for the first and most obvious conclusion "They beat Renault therefore they're fully on top of the PU"

How do you account for a sustained PU/component failure rate higher than Renault themselves? If there is no problem and they're fully on top of it, that wouldn't be the case would it? Specifically look at their burn rate of energy store and control electronics.

Same story with Honda power in 2017. Across both cars McLaren chewed through 14 x ES and 13 x CE. The very next year Honda moved to supply Toro Rosso who got through just 6 x ES and 2 x CE. Clearly there are aspects of managing the temperamental nature of these hybrid PU's that they aren't fully on top of.

I could be wrong of course... If you believe that is so, an alternative theory as to why they repeatedly fail to get the results other get off the bat would be useful.

jsf

21,712 posts

199 months

Wednesday 1st July 2020
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
How do you account for a sustained PU/component failure rate higher than Renault themselves?
Poor supplier quality control, supplier not providing to the spec supplied which the car was designed around leading to higher failure rate, luck of the draw. You could list hundreds of reasons.

It's silly to compare McLaren and Torro Rosso's engine stats with their respective Honda program, Torro Rosso built a car which they knew had a wider operating window to enable more development towards the Red Bull era, they also benefited from the learning during the McLaren years.

TheDeuce

8,511 posts

29 months

Wednesday 1st July 2020
quotequote all
jsf said:
Poor supplier quality control, supplier not providing to the spec supplied which the car was designed around leading to higher failure rate, luck of the draw. You could list hundreds of reasons.

It's silly to compare McLaren and Torro Rosso's engine stats with their respective Honda program, Torro Rosso built a car which they knew had a wider operating window to enable more development towards the Red Bull era, they also benefited from the learning during the McLaren years.
You are touching on the very reasons I stated for McLaren struggling when you popped up and told me they were fully on top of their PU integration.

They aren't. I fully imagine they haven't had the best service or reliable two way development with Honda or Renault because they haven't forged that relationship as tentatively and carefully as Red Bull - via TR in the first year.

McLaren had 3 years with Honda. Year one could have been a learning year (which RB had via TR) and year two should have been the equivalent of what RB had last year. It was not.

What can I say..? I agree with you. They have struggled with PU integration as they haven't formed as strong of a partnership with their suppliers as others have done. I agree they also failed to learn year one and apply year two - by which time they were already making critical noises = goodbye relationship. I agree we can't compare McLaren with Honda to RB with Honda, because they misjudged how to extract the best from such a partnership.

I agree with you about all the above reasons as to why McLaren have consistently failed to get fully on top of integration and management of the PU in the hybrid era. I implore you to read back and agree with yourself wink

jsf

21,712 posts

199 months

Thursday 2nd July 2020
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You're mental.

cosicave

680 posts

123 months

Thursday 2nd July 2020
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jsf said:
You're mental.
beer

MiniMan64

13,564 posts

153 months

Thursday 2nd July 2020
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So with the arrival of this weekend is this thread officially dead?

TwentyFive

309 posts

29 months

Thursday 2nd July 2020
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MiniMan64 said:
So with the arrival of this weekend is this thread officially dead?
Based on the very last minute issues in Melbourne I would hold off on that until we actually get the green light in the pit lane for FP1 on Friday!

TheDeuce

8,511 posts

29 months

Thursday 2nd July 2020
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jsf said:
You're mental.
I'm disappointed. Yet I remain polite at least.

BrettMRC

1,937 posts

123 months

Thursday 2nd July 2020
quotequote all
jsf said:
Poor supplier quality control, supplier not providing to the spec supplied which the car was designed around leading to higher failure rate, luck of the draw. You could list hundreds of reasons.

It's silly to compare McLaren and Torro Rosso's engine stats with their respective Honda program, Torro Rosso built a car which they knew had a wider operating window to enable more development towards the Red Bull era, they also benefited from the learning during the McLaren years.
Spot on, McLaren have always "gone their own way" with car design and integration - it's why they have had so much success in the past, and also why they end up down the wrong hole from time to time. It's also why they can be a PITA to work with as they often can't adjust to other companies ways of working.

When it goes right, it's awesome and they dominate - when it's going wrong they need a big stick to readjust their thinking.

McLaren I think are now finally coming out of the Ron era, which means they should start to play better with others - but they still retain the ethos and the infrastructure to make fast progress. (On the flip side, this is why Williams are so badly in a hole now - they can't or won't change, and if they don't adapt soon they will die)

TheDeuce

8,511 posts

29 months

Thursday 2nd July 2020
quotequote all
BrettMRC said:
Spot on, McLaren have always "gone their own way" with car design and integration - it's why they have had so much success in the past, and also why they end up down the wrong hole from time to time. It's also why they can be a PITA to work with as they often can't adjust to other companies ways of working.

When it goes right, it's awesome and they dominate - when it's going wrong they need a big stick to readjust their thinking.

McLaren I think are now finally coming out of the Ron era, which means they should start to play better with others - but they still retain the ethos and the infrastructure to make fast progress. (On the flip side, this is why Williams are so badly in a hole now - they can't or won't change, and if they don't adapt soon they will die)
Exactly my view too. Their car last year was excellent in many ways but just imagine the extra points if there has been less PU reliability issues? And to limit those they need to enhance two way learning between themselves and their supplier. If they did that, they shouldn't still be having such a disproportionately high number of PU issues.

Durzel

9,517 posts

131 months

Thursday 2nd July 2020
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Simoncelli58 said:
And just to square the circle -

If Hamilton doesn't win the short 2020 championship through bad luck , mechanical breakdown and Max punting off the track ..................despite being the fastest .

Do you honestly think his fans will simply say 'Thats racing , it was the same for everyone '

I think not .

2020 will always be remembered for being a very strange season .
I think there will always be "if there had been just X more races, Y would've closed the gap" hypotheticals with such a dramatically different season.

What I do think is a massive shame is the outright admission from Ferrari that their car won't be competitive. I would've liked to have seen Vettel go for broke in what seems likely to be his last season.

Munter

30,403 posts

204 months

Thursday 2nd July 2020
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Durzel said:
I would've liked to have seen Vettel go for broke in what seems likely to be his last season.
I suspect most of the other teams don't want to spend that much money repairing the damage Vettel would cause in this scenario.

I will push, oh I spun. Spun again. Collected a bunch of cars. Spun again. I'm a F1 god don't you know now bow down before my magnificence. Oops, spun on the way out the carpark.

shirt

20,159 posts

164 months

Thursday 2nd July 2020
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My 2p: If merc/ham are dominant they’ll continue that form into the final season of the current regs, hence I think this is Hamilton’s best chance of becoming 9x WDC and this eclipsing all the records, having no unfinished business In His head, and Paving the way for retirement and a career as biggy H the rap star .


TheDeuce

8,511 posts

29 months

Thursday 2nd July 2020
quotequote all
shirt said:
My 2p: If merc/ham are dominant they’ll continue that form into the final season of the current regs, hence I think this is Hamilton’s best chance of becoming 9x WDC and this eclipsing all the records, having no unfinished business In His head, and Paving the way for retirement and a career as biggy H the rap star .
This would be his 7th title, next year his 8th - then that is the end of the current regs.

Still impressive, but where does the 9th title come from?


jsf

21,712 posts

199 months

Thursday 2nd July 2020
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
jsf said:
You're mental.
I'm disappointed. Yet I remain polite at least.
It's the only response to that diarrhoea I'm afraid.

You continue to push a narrative you have no way to prove, it's bizarre.

TheDeuce

8,511 posts

29 months

Thursday 2nd July 2020
quotequote all
jsf said:
TheDeuce said:
jsf said:
You're mental.
I'm disappointed. Yet I remain polite at least.
It's the only response to that diarrhoea I'm afraid.

You continue to push a narrative you have no way to prove, it's bizarre.
Happy to debate further if you cut short the insults.

When you told me McLaren were fully on top of their PU integration - can you provide evidence of that? Your latter posts suggest that due to the type of supplier relationship they had compared of the likes of RB/TR, they can't be expected to do as well with their PU reliability. So McLaren are fully on top if it, but others with the same PU are 'more' fully on top of it?

jsf

21,712 posts

199 months

Thursday 2nd July 2020
quotequote all
PU parts used at the start of the last race of 2019

ICE Internal Combustion Engine TC Turbo Charger
MGU-H Motor Generator Unit – Heat MGU-K Motor Generator Unit – Kinetic

N° Car Driver ICE TC MGU-H MGU-K
33 RBR Honda Max Verstappen 5 4 4 3 = 16
23 RBR Honda Alexander Albon 5 5 5 4 = 19
26 Toro Rosso Honda Daniil Kvyat 7 7 7 6 = 27
10 Toro Rosso Honda Pierre Gasly 7 5 5 5 = 22
Total Honda replacements = 84

03 Renault Daniel Ricciardo 5 4 4 4 = 17
27 Renault Nico Hülkenberg 6 4 4 3 = 17
55 McLaren Renault Carlos Sainz 6 5 5 5 = 21
04 McLaren Renault Lando Norris 4 4 4 4 = 16
Total Renault replacements = 71

Total ICE unit changes
RBR = 10
TR = 14
Renault = 11
McLaren = 10

Most reliable total units used over the season
Joint between Lando Norris and Max Verstappen = 16 units

Most reliable ICE over the season
Lando Norris = 4 units

Most reliable team ICE over the season
Joint between RBR and McLaren = 10 units

Big Nanas

666 posts

47 months

Thursday 2nd July 2020
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That’s very interesting, thanks jsf.