F1 cancelled this year?

F1 cancelled this year?

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sparta6

2,494 posts

64 months

Saturday 21st March 2020
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MG CHRIS said:
The only way I can see it surviving is if it goes back to a gentlemen excuse to go racing with formula e being the format for manufactures to push electric tech. Ice are old hat and manuafactures would want to push new tech in a post covid 19 world.
Very interesting times ahead.
Four round rubber tyres are also old hat.

There is growing concern in scientific circles that precious metal mining for batteries is more damaging to our environment than originally thought.

Manufacturers have lobbied governments very well so far in pushing the EV argument.



TheDeuce

8,814 posts

30 months

Saturday 21st March 2020
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sparta6 said:
MG CHRIS said:
The only way I can see it surviving is if it goes back to a gentlemen excuse to go racing with formula e being the format for manufactures to push electric tech. Ice are old hat and manuafactures would want to push new tech in a post covid 19 world.
Very interesting times ahead.
Four round rubber tyres are also old hat.

There is growing concern in scientific circles that precious metal mining for batteries is more damaging to our environment than originally thought.

Manufacturers have lobbied governments very well so far in pushing the EV argument.
It's late and I'm beer down so can't be bothered right now to go in to detail.. but you're basically correct. Current cell technology is both inadequate and so costly at a material level that there is no sensible arguement for EV. Other than perhaps that adoption of EVs might precipitate further investment into solid state cells and actual viable mainstream EVs.

The technology sadly isn't quite as advanced as people's good intentions are, at least not yet. We're so close though - and when solid state cells are proven and mainstream, our world will transform.

Clockwork Cupcake

65,629 posts

236 months

Sunday 22nd March 2020
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There will probably come a time in the near future when F1 and Formula-E will start to trample on each others' toes. But, since Formula-E doesn't have anywhere near the performance of F1, I think they can probably coexist with Formula-E being more akin to F2.

I think we may see a rise in virtual racing too, given that all F1 teams have complex simulators already. Although how that would be policed, I don't know. Far too much scope for cheating at present. smile

I think that whatever the future holds, F1 will still come out to be the pinnacle of motorsport in whatever form that ultimately takes.

PD9

1,888 posts

149 months

Sunday 22nd March 2020
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In terms of the comments on the Renault situation, what’s the benefit of being an engine supplier, in the case of Renault and Mercedes who run works teams there are ‘benefits’; however, what do Honda gain from F1? Decent season last year and obvious exposure / marketing - out with this do Honda generate any revenue within F1 from RB and Alpha Tauri?

TheDeuce

8,814 posts

30 months

Sunday 22nd March 2020
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PD9 said:
In terms of the comments on the Renault situation, what’s the benefit of being an engine supplier, in the case of Renault and Mercedes who run works teams there are ‘benefits’; however, what do Honda gain from F1? Decent season last year and obvious exposure / marketing - out with this do Honda generate any revenue within F1 from RB and Alpha Tauri?
Honda engines are used in so many machines beyond cars, and they have a reputation for great durability. Honda themselves are one of the finest engine designers and producers in the world.

I guess they feel they should be publicly "in Motorsport" to reinforce that image. I can appreciate that it's quite something to look at a cheap generator or scooter and see the Honda badge on the engine - and then see the fastest race cars in the world use them too. Gives the impression that honda are the last word in engine manufacturing.

Gazzab

18,725 posts

246 months

Sunday 22nd March 2020
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So it’s looking increasingly unlikely that this season will happen at all. With lock downs becoming stricter and more widespread, with the virus in an upward trajectory, with international travel becoming unacceptable, with global companies having more important things to worry about, with the government likely to demand f1 co’s start building ventilators etc, with some F1 teams likely to run out of cash etc etc then it seems unlikely we will see a race this season. This in turn will have huge impacts on next season.

LucyP

547 posts

23 months

Sunday 22nd March 2020
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TheDeuce said:
Honda engines are used in so many machines beyond cars, and they have a reputation for great durability. Honda themselves are one of the finest engine designers and producers in the world.

I guess they feel they should be publicly "in Motorsport" to reinforce that image. I can appreciate that it's quite something to look at a cheap generator or scooter and see the Honda badge on the engine - and then see the fastest race cars in the world use them too. Gives the impression that honda are the last word in engine manufacturing.
But who thinks like that? And if they did so, then Honda would have gone bust in 2017, when they went through 5 engines in the first day of testing, and some of them blew up before the end of the pitlane.

No one stood in B&Q when they were buying a new lawnmower for 2017 and thought, I'll avoid anything made by those idiots, because it will blow up between the shed and the lawn, and I'll need 5 engines and still not get the grass cut.

768

8,315 posts

60 months

Sunday 22nd March 2020
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That's not how advertising works.

TheDeuce

8,814 posts

30 months

Sunday 22nd March 2020
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LucyP said:
TheDeuce said:
Honda engines are used in so many machines beyond cars, and they have a reputation for great durability. Honda themselves are one of the finest engine designers and producers in the world.

I guess they feel they should be publicly "in Motorsport" to reinforce that image. I can appreciate that it's quite something to look at a cheap generator or scooter and see the Honda badge on the engine - and then see the fastest race cars in the world use them too. Gives the impression that honda are the last word in engine manufacturing.
But who thinks like that? And if they did so, then Honda would have gone bust in 2017, when they went through 5 engines in the first day of testing, and some of them blew up before the end of the pitlane.

No one stood in B&Q when they were buying a new lawnmower for 2017 and thought, I'll avoid anything made by those idiots, because it will blow up between the shed and the lawn, and I'll need 5 engines and still not get the grass cut.
I've got responses for your questions...

... Sadly I can't stand interacting with you. So I won't bother.

How about.. I've explained what I think and what I see, how I see it. If you disagree, put forwards your own answer to the question originally posed.

Gazzab

18,725 posts

246 months

Sunday 22nd March 2020
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TheDeuce said:
LucyP said:
TheDeuce said:
Honda engines are used in so many machines beyond cars, and they have a reputation for great durability. Honda themselves are one of the finest engine designers and producers in the world.

I guess they feel they should be publicly "in Motorsport" to reinforce that image. I can appreciate that it's quite something to look at a cheap generator or scooter and see the Honda badge on the engine - and then see the fastest race cars in the world use them too. Gives the impression that honda are the last word in engine manufacturing.
But who thinks like that? And if they did so, then Honda would have gone bust in 2017, when they went through 5 engines in the first day of testing, and some of them blew up before the end of the pitlane.

No one stood in B&Q when they were buying a new lawnmower for 2017 and thought, I'll avoid anything made by those idiots, because it will blow up between the shed and the lawn, and I'll need 5 engines and still not get the grass cut.
I've got responses for your questions...

... Sadly I can't stand interacting with you. So I won't bother.

How about.. I've explained what I think and what I see, how I see it. If you disagree, put forwards your own answer to the question originally posed.
Both right, both wrong, no fault, move on.

Derek Smith

38,977 posts

212 months

Sunday 22nd March 2020
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LucyP said:
I understand your point Derek, but does it really work for an ordinary manufacturer? I don't think it does at all. Does anyone buying a 89 bhp C(r)aptur make any link with the F1 operation or think they are Ricciardo or Ocon? I can't see how or why. I don't think it's how people buy cars like that. I think they test all the rivals, see which they like best/suits their needs best/who offers the best deal.

Porsche, yes. I understand the link, because you can buy the road car that at least looks like the one you saw on track, even if that is where the similarities end. And you can have GT2s and 3s that bring cages, stripped out, race seats, to allow you to live out that fantasy. But an 89 bhp Renault?

And as I said, the Mercedes A Class sell is an easy one. A Merc for less than a Vauxhall.
As jsf said:

jsf said:
My brother is a top creative in advertising, you will have seen many of his campaigns over the past 30 years. Marketing works incredibly well at all levels, most of us have no idea we are being manipulated and nudged in the direction the marketing sends us.

There is a real science to this stuff and those who are good at it earn a lot of money.
People buy on emotion. There's very little logic in anything other than the likes of toilet roll.

The problem for us is that advertising works whether we want it to or not. Those who smugly believe they are beyond the reach of advertising are cannon fodder. I know a few of their methods, but I am as likely to be influenced as any. It's infuriating.

It's led by algorithms in many ways, although there's still room for imagination. There's the remarkable Krohn VW add in the 60s. The series changed advertising and its effects are still with us. Merc's over recent years -' Lord, won't you buy me . . . ' was inspired. Not only are they fun to watch, they are influential. You enjoy it because of the soundtrack and Janis Joplin, who died a couple of days after recording it. And you end up thinking that everyone dreams of a Merc.

I write on marketing and I subscriber to a number of email marketing lists, which I read dozens of weekly. You'd think I'd built up mental callouses over the years, but I still buy from some of them. At least I know they're worth an article or two.

You see Hamilton, Vettel, and the pretenders in an atmosphere of glamour and excitement. Who wouldn't want a Merc in order to feel part of it all?

It's a mistake to underestimate advertising. How else would you explain you buying a Pepsi?

TheDeuce

8,814 posts

30 months

Sunday 22nd March 2020
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Derek Smith said:
People buy on emotion. There's very little logic in anything other than the likes of toilet roll.

The problem for us is that advertising works whether we want it to or not. Those who smugly believe they are beyond the reach of advertising are cannon fodder. I know a few of their methods, but I am as likely to be influenced as any. It's infuriating.

It's led by algorithms in many ways, although there's still room for imagination. There's the remarkable Krohn VW add in the 60s. The series changed advertising and its effects are still with us. Merc's over recent years -' Lord, won't you buy me . . . ' was inspired. Not only are they fun to watch, they are influential. You enjoy it because of the soundtrack and Janis Joplin, who died a couple of days after recording it. And you end up thinking that everyone dreams of a Merc.

I write on marketing and I subscriber to a number of email marketing lists, which I read dozens of weekly. You'd think I'd built up mental callouses over the years, but I still buy from some of them. At least I know they're worth an article or two.

You see Hamilton, Vettel, and the pretenders in an atmosphere of glamour and excitement. Who wouldn't want a Merc in order to feel part of it all?

It's a mistake to underestimate advertising. How else would you explain you buying a Pepsi?
Quite - and the F1 equivalent of pepsi is of course Red Bull, which is why that team always courts controversy and why Horner always gives a quotable sentence to the press, to get headlines written which include the words 'red' and 'bull'. They just want name recognition, they want people to read those two words every single day, no matter the context.

As some are aware, I work often for a major car manufacturer and have been involved in the global launches of their new models and motorshow activities etc. I also work for other major brands, I would be shocked if anyone in the UK hasn't seen at least some of the subsequent output. It is often very hard to see why/how advertising works on a more complex level and it is an art form. It certainly gets more complex the more sentimental the product is: a can of energy drink just has to do its job and be forgotten - so buy the one you hear about constantly, easy decision. A car on the other hand..? The choice of car says something about your personality, your status... Marketing a car needs precise identification of those that could be pursuaded to buy, and then those people have to be carefully converted. That is a clever job indeed and frankly beyond me. And naturally it's a little hit and miss, but that's what they aim for. If they miss, then at least in trying they have still splashed the brand around.

Back to honda: of course as an engine manufacturer it's great if they show total reliability in F1, and it's less great if they end a season the least reliable.. but to the casual viewer I can believe that they will subconsciously see yet another application for a Honda engine, simply assume that if F1 use their engines, they really are pretty good, and that's just one less thing that person worries about when deciding to buy or pass on a Honda car/bike.

I'm pretty sure honda just want their name on some level attached to every type of motorised product. For them it's about brand awareness - and of course if they successes in F1 that play to their core brand identity, they will be very vocal about that.

Eric Mc

114,608 posts

229 months

Sunday 22nd March 2020
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Derek Smith said:
People buy on emotion. There's very little logic in anything other than the likes of toilet roll.

The problem for us is that advertising works whether we want it to or not. Those who smugly believe they are beyond the reach of advertising are cannon fodder. I know a few of their methods, but I am as likely to be influenced as any. It's infuriating.

It's led by algorithms in many ways, although there's still room for imagination. There's the remarkable Krohn VW add in the 60s. The series changed advertising and its effects are still with us. Merc's over recent years -' Lord, won't you buy me . . . ' was inspired. Not only are they fun to watch, they are influential. You enjoy it because of the soundtrack and Janis Joplin, who died a couple of days after recording it. And you end up thinking that everyone dreams of a Merc.

I write on marketing and I subscriber to a number of email marketing lists, which I read dozens of weekly. You'd think I'd built up mental callouses over the years, but I still buy from some of them. At least I know they're worth an article or two.

You see Hamilton, Vettel, and the pretenders in an atmosphere of glamour and excitement. Who wouldn't want a Merc in order to feel part of it all?

It's a mistake to underestimate advertising. How else would you explain you buying a Pepsi?
I can get very emotional over toilet roll.

TheDeuce

8,814 posts

30 months

Sunday 22nd March 2020
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Eric Mc said:
I can get very emotional over toilet roll.
You have toilet roll? Where'd that come from???

I've been on tea towels for a week.

Eric Mc

114,608 posts

229 months

Sunday 22nd March 2020
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I started hoarding in October 2019. I had a premonition.

TheDeuce

8,814 posts

30 months

Sunday 22nd March 2020
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Eric Mc said:
I started hoarding in October 2019. I had a premonition.
This panic buying shortage reminded me of a neat bit of wisdom from Lister in Red Dwarf.

All you need is three sheets per visit: one up, one down, the third sheet to polish.

That was in the 1990's smile

LucyP

547 posts

23 months

Monday 23rd March 2020
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"but to the casual viewer I can believe that they will subconsciously see yet another application for a Honda engine, simply assume that if F1 use their engines, they really are pretty good, and that's just one less thing that person worries about when deciding to buy or pass on a Honda car/bike."

If that is true, then the reverse has to be true. It's how the world works. They see an engine that blows up every race. They see Alonso complaining. They see McLaren complaining. There is no way that they think "they are really pretty good".

And the way that people really buy things now is because of reviews, which is why at its peak, TripAdvisor was worth nearly $15 billion. Think about it. A company with no real physical assets, yet that kind of value. Everyone looks a reviews before they buy anything mainstream.

No one is going to connect the crap engine that was formerly in the McLaren with the engine that is in the Red Bull, and if they do, they will work out that it is still the worst engine in F1, except for the Renault that is really bad, so why would they be reassured when they buy their lawnmower?

They will be much more reassured by looking on a review site and seeing that people think it's a great mower and that it has been totally reliable. If the review sites say that it is a heap of junk, then even if Honda win the F1 drivers and constructors title, then they are not going to buy that Honda mower.

And as for all this subliminal advertising nonsense and algorithms, and none of us being immune - if that was the case, then my house would be full of sofas from DFS, furniture from Oak Furniture Land and a mattresses from Dormeo, because I am bombarded with advertising telling me how amazing these products are, and that I have to hurry before the sale ends. I would eat Dominos pizza every night, because it is the "official food of everything". I would also rush out and buy the cosmetics that 57% of the 123 women surveyed thought were good.

So why do I have no products at all from any of those companies? Why do I laugh at their adverts? Am I really so stupid as to believe that a £199 mattress from a company that has 6 minute long tv adverts and is rated as no 1. is better than one from a company that never advertises on TV, that most people will never have heard of and costs at least 100 times more?



jsf

22,316 posts

200 months

Monday 23rd March 2020
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My god you are tedious. laugh

Eric Mc

114,608 posts

229 months

Monday 23rd March 2020
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TheDeuce said:
Eric Mc said:
I started hoarding in October 2019. I had a premonition.
This panic buying shortage reminded me of a neat bit of wisdom from Lister in Red Dwarf.

All you need is three sheets per visit: one up, one down, the third sheet to polish.

That was in the 1990's smile
Maybe we should see a return of the old Roman Solution - a piece of sponge on a stick.

defblade

6,063 posts

177 months

Monday 23rd March 2020
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Derek Smith said:
It's a mistake to underestimate advertising. How else would you explain you buying a Pepsi?
Because the bd pub doesn't have any proper Coke...

...no longer a problem...