Haas on the way out?
Discussion
Gene Haas talking down the possibility of staying in F1 beyond the end of this year:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/gene-haas-futur...
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/gene-haas-futur...
"Haas: Start to season will decide F1 team’s future"
If that's how he feels, it looks like he's going to pull out then. There aren't often many truths we can learn during pre-season testing, but HAAS really did look like they had problems to me. Their business model means their car is out of date at the start of each season. They also seem to spend the first part of each season on an extended learning curve as they try and understand what their car is doing.. True of all teams to an extent but HAAS appear totally baffled quite often.
If that's how he feels, it looks like he's going to pull out then. There aren't often many truths we can learn during pre-season testing, but HAAS really did look like they had problems to me. Their business model means their car is out of date at the start of each season. They also seem to spend the first part of each season on an extended learning curve as they try and understand what their car is doing.. True of all teams to an extent but HAAS appear totally baffled quite often.
BrettMRC said:
Sale to Ferrari as another B team?
Honestly, why not?Ferrari are soon to be forced to save a good deal of the budget they currently have for F1, they could easily afford to bankroll another team with that money... Also, the more b/c teams you have, the more you can spread the R&D £££ around without exceeding the cap.
All makes sense - other than it makes no sense as the new caps seem pointless if the top 3 can simply buy up smaller teams and maintain an advantage over the likes of Williams, McLaren etc. But whatever, it's F1 - it never really makes sense
TheDeuce said:
Ferrari are soon to be forced to save a good deal of the budget they currently have for F1, they could easily afford to bankroll another team with that money... Also, the more b/c teams you have, the more you can spread the R&D £££ around without exceeding the cap.
And the more power you have - you could threaten the FIA with quitting (removing four teams from the grid) & tell them you weren't going to allow them to sanction you should you, for instance, be caught cheating.I'm sure that wouldn't happen though.
TheDeuce said:
Ferrari are soon to be forced to save a good deal of the budget they currently have for F1
<tinfoil hat with Ferrar International Assistance drawn on>No, they're really not
The regulations aren't very well suited to situations whereby the 'F1 Team' isn't a separate 'company'. This obviously isn't relevant to most teams, except the red one. Although really the cost cap isn't relevant to most teams as they'd love to have $175,000,000 to blow on race cars.
Ferrari is just Ferrari, there isn't specifically a Ferrari F1, yes Scuderia Ferrari is a division within Ferrari, but given that they will be providing the FIA with the figures, various areas of their costs (or at least significant proportions of them) could very easily be excluded as being money spent on non-F1 activities, which aren't part of the cost-cap.
That team of 50 aerodynamicists over there? Oh no, they work on the road cars mate, their salaries aren't part of it. Maranello? Those costs are 90% road car related mate, can't include those. All those CNC machines, autoclaves etc.? Nah they're mostly making road car bits, only about 5% of the cost of those is part of our F1 budget, probably...
</tinfoil hat with Ferrar International Assistance drawn on>
SturdyHSV said:
TheDeuce said:
Ferrari are soon to be forced to save a good deal of the budget they currently have for F1
<tinfoil hat with Ferrar International Assistance drawn on>No, they're really not
The regulations aren't very well suited to situations whereby the 'F1 Team' isn't a separate 'company'. This obviously isn't relevant to most teams, except the red one. Although really the cost cap isn't relevant to most teams as they'd love to have $175,000,000 to blow on race cars.
Ferrari is just Ferrari, there isn't specifically a Ferrari F1, yes Scuderia Ferrari is a division within Ferrari, but given that they will be providing the FIA with the figures, various areas of their costs (or at least significant proportions of them) could very easily be excluded as being money spent on non-F1 activities, which aren't part of the cost-cap.
That team of 50 aerodynamicists over there? Oh no, they work on the road cars mate, their salaries aren't part of it. Maranello? Those costs are 90% road car related mate, can't include those. All those CNC machines, autoclaves etc.? Nah they're mostly making road car bits, only about 5% of the cost of those is part of our F1 budget, probably...
</tinfoil hat with Ferrar International Assistance drawn on>
That said, Ferrari currently spend something like £400m a year, soon to be capped at about £150m. They'll probably struggle to hide the difference via creative accounting alone, even once they have separated driver and senior team members pay from the cap. It's not maybe not all about £££, it's potentially better in some ways to spread the costs across more than one team as they also then have double/three times the number of cars on track, effectively working towards the success of the main team in multiple ways.
As for will they buy HAAS? I can see it, wouldn't surprise me one bit. If they don't, there are a reasonable number of billionaires that have shown some interest in F1 over the years, even been linked to potentially investing in other teams. Some of these billionaires have sons that fancy themselves as F1 drivers.. I think it's a safe bet that if Gene sells up the team will be back on the grid come 2021 following a change of ownership and name.
Fundoreen said:
Seems odd as next year they will probably be able to run cost neutral . I cant believe haas ever thought he was going to win against the mighty big teams.
Maybe Gunter is very convincing in presentations.
Don't think he ever thought that but, like he says, unless you're in the top 4 or 5 at the very least it's hard to see the point.Maybe Gunter is very convincing in presentations.
Problem with hanging on to 2021 to see if the promises of running costs and prize money do materialise is that you have to commit a huge amount of money to designing and building a completely new car first.
Given the way the world economy is going I'd pull the plug and concentrate on the core markets.
TheDeuce said:
BrettMRC said:
Sale to Ferrari as another B team?
Honestly, why not?What *is* Haas? What does it comprise?
As far as I can tell it is a skeleton of a design team based on the other side of the world from where the action is, and a series of fabrication contractors in a rolodex.
This was always going to be a problem with the innovative Haas model. If most of your car is supplied by other parties, what is your asset and what is its value?
Gene will walk away with nothing for his efforts and the Formula 1 grid will be two cars short. Either that or he will persevere with the team and bring more and more design and manufacturing capability in house to the point that it is a passable constructor.
However it is still in the wrong place.
What is it about the yanks which makes them so certain that you can run a successful F1 team out of North America despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary?
HustleRussell said:
Sell what?
What *is* Haas? What does it comprise?
As far as I can tell it is a skeleton of a design team based on the other side of the world from where the action is, and a series of fabrication contractors in a rolodex.
This was always going to be a problem with the innovative Haas model. If most of your car is supplied by other parties, what is your asset and what is its value?
Gene will walk away with nothing for his efforts and the Formula 1 grid will be two cars short. Either that or he will persevere with the team and bring more and more design and manufacturing capability in house to the point that it is a passable constructor.
However it is still in the wrong place.
What is it about the yanks which makes them so certain that you can run a successful F1 team out of North America despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary?
He won't get his investment back that's for sure. But in terms of a plug and play solution to entering F1, there will be some value in having a framework of people already in place that can bring a car to the grid and have already done the job of bringing together the collective efforts of the various suppliers.What *is* Haas? What does it comprise?
As far as I can tell it is a skeleton of a design team based on the other side of the world from where the action is, and a series of fabrication contractors in a rolodex.
This was always going to be a problem with the innovative Haas model. If most of your car is supplied by other parties, what is your asset and what is its value?
Gene will walk away with nothing for his efforts and the Formula 1 grid will be two cars short. Either that or he will persevere with the team and bring more and more design and manufacturing capability in house to the point that it is a passable constructor.
However it is still in the wrong place.
What is it about the yanks which makes them so certain that you can run a successful F1 team out of North America despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary?
HAAS (the team) could probably change hands for a reasonable sum of money and still be easier and cheaper than starting from absolute scratch.
As for why the Americans believe it can work... the more switched on Americans probably would rather run the team from UK/Europe, it is easier. But beyond that, a combination of American pride, 'All American brands' and American labor laws would make such a decision a little fraught.
The value is in the F1 entry, which is all but impossible to get for a brand new entrant, and the prize fund that goes with it. Anyone wanting to get into F1 now has no option but to buy an existing team.
Also, consider that F1 is contracted to put a minimum of 20 cars on the grids for races, so they will also be motivated to see that the team doesn't just fold.
Also, consider that F1 is contracted to put a minimum of 20 cars on the grids for races, so they will also be motivated to see that the team doesn't just fold.
thegreenhell said:
The value is in the F1 entry, which is all but impossible to get for a brand new entrant, and the prize fund that goes with it. Anyone wanting to get into F1 now has no option but to buy an existing team.
Also, consider that F1 is contracted to put a minimum of 20 cars on the grids for races, so they will also be motivated to see that the team doesn't just fold.
Another aspect is that anyone taking over the team would be straight in to big expense anyway, they would want to pay 'whatever they can agree with HAAS' for the team, and in addition would have to bankroll considerable money to make whatever changes they think are needed along with giving existing and future sponsors confidence that there has been some investment - and above all that with the aim of the cars performing better of course.Also, consider that F1 is contracted to put a minimum of 20 cars on the grids for races, so they will also be motivated to see that the team doesn't just fold.
It's a big amount of money beyond the purchase price of the team, so if the argument was that HAAS are only worth £15m on paper... If Gene himself value'd it at £30m and someone was in a hurry to get in to F1 and slap their brand on it, he'd probably get what he wanted.
It's worth whatever someone is prepared to pay - like most things
Günther not very happy with this drivers, can't tell when exactly but it might be Silverstone (the Whittlebury Woods in one shot) after they crashed into each other and Button there on the TV interviewing Horner - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6dFnuqHY10 obvs sound is not matched to the pictures, but that sounds like him to me.
Ps. NSFW if anyone actually is still in work because Günther has a potty mouth
Ps. NSFW if anyone actually is still in work because Günther has a potty mouth
FourWheelDrift said:
Günther not very happy with this drivers, can't tell when exactly but it might be Silverstone (the Whittlebury Woods in one shot) after they crashed into each other and Button there on the TV interviewing Horner - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6dFnuqHY10
Ps. NSFW if anyone actually is still in work because Günther has a potty mouth
That's from the netflix TV series, well worth a watch. Ps. NSFW if anyone actually is still in work because Günther has a potty mouth
Heartworm said:
FourWheelDrift said:
Günther not very happy with this drivers, can't tell when exactly but it might be Silverstone (the Whittlebury Woods in one shot) after they crashed into each other and Button there on the TV interviewing Horner - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6dFnuqHY10
Ps. NSFW if anyone actually is still in work because Günther has a potty mouth
That's from the netflix TV series, well worth a watch. Ps. NSFW if anyone actually is still in work because Günther has a potty mouth
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