The Official F1 2021 silly season *contains speculation*

The Official F1 2021 silly season *contains speculation*

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MustangGT

8,927 posts

246 months

Wednesday 19th May
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HTP99 said:
Yep, he's in his 4th season now, another couple of years in a midfield team would do his nut in plus he'd be a couple of years older and the age that F1 drivers seem to come into F1 now, he'll be an old man, he's good enough to move up to a top tier team.
Agreed. I think we will see George alongside Lewis next year with Valterri going to AM to replace the retiring Seb. George will have a couple of years alongside Lewis to 'learn' and then Lewis will retire, or, perhaps go to AM himself.

kiseca

9,073 posts

185 months

Wednesday 19th May
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MustangGT said:
HTP99 said:
Yep, he's in his 4th season now, another couple of years in a midfield team would do his nut in plus he'd be a couple of years older and the age that F1 drivers seem to come into F1 now, he'll be an old man, he's good enough to move up to a top tier team.
Agreed. I think we will see George alongside Lewis next year with Valterri going to AM to replace the retiring Seb. George will have a couple of years alongside Lewis to 'learn' and then Lewis will retire, or, perhaps go to AM himself.
I agree. I don't think there's any gain from having him sit in the midfield for a couple of years. The top drivers make it into a top team pretty quickly, and then they deliver. They learn from experience but I don't see anything historically to say that the experience gained from a midfield car is higher quality than what you get in a top one. The pressures or expectations may be a bit different but I think that, at this stage in their career, they either have the tools to succeed already, or they haven't.

A year or two alongside Hamilton, getting used to winning races (something that many race winners cite as a milestone in their development. Before they won the first race, they think they can do it. After their first race, they know they can) and learning at close quarters how to fight for championships from the current master will set him up better than a stint in a McLaren, an Aston Martin, or anything else. Ignoring the possibility of the 2022 rule changes shaking up the pecking order, obviously.

The experience he's getting at the moment is that he's incapable of getting points because even when the car is up to it, something else lets him down, and sometimes it's himself. I'm worried that he is learning that he is unlucky. He needs reward for the effort otherwise he'll push too hard and just be slower. Or he'll get too excited and never hit the podium because like Hulk. when the rare chances turn up, his experience has taught him that it's not going to happen, and somehow they find a way to make that true.

RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat

12,756 posts

61 months

Wednesday 19th May
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I think the apparent weakness of Russell in the races is overplayed. Verstappen was hardly trouble free in his first few years and I don't see too many people saying he should have spent more time at Toro Rosso before being promoted.

Can't see any reason he wouldn't do as well or better than Bottas if he was in the Mercedes. He'd certainly learn a lot more and faster compared to being in a team with Latifi.

TheDeuce

9,532 posts

32 months

Wednesday 19th May
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RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
I think the apparent weakness of Russell in the races is overplayed. Verstappen was hardly trouble free in his first few years and I don't see too many people saying he should have spent more time at Toro Rosso before being promoted.

Can't see any reason he wouldn't do as well or better than Bottas if he was in the Mercedes. He'd certainly learn a lot more and faster compared to being in a team with Latifi.
I think he'd struggle to consistently bang in quali laps as fast as Bottas - that's Bottas's party trick...

I agree it's odd that people judge Russell as having poor race pace though, and I have no idea what the theory is based upon? Sure, he at best holds and normally loses position during a race, but wouldn't we expect that from the Williams car regardless of who drives it?? With the Merc PU and a fresh set of tyres, of course it can beat 'some' other cars, and Russell can probably beat some other drivers too. But in race trim, with it's lackluster aero (it's generations behind the rest) and it's generally unpredictable nature, there's no chance of reliably getting the best from the tyres over a race stint. Also apparently it's a shocker to drive in dirty air which will further complicate forward progress and also diminish tyre life.

I think we'd need to see him in a less compromised car before it's worth even having an opinion on his race pace.

The Hypno-Toad

10,679 posts

171 months

Wednesday 19th May
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The Hypno-Toad said:
And I put the word 'works' in front of Mclaren F1 car because I have a slight memory of someone running a M23 in Gulf markings as one off at race in the mid-70s (South Africa?).

Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Monday 17th May 00:37
And I was wrong, it was a Tyrrell.

Scuderia Gulf Rondini bought an 007 for Alessandro Pesenti-Rossi to race at four races towards the end of 1976. His best result was 11th in Austria.



Been bugging me all week.

talksthetorque

9,038 posts

101 months

Wednesday 19th May
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RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
I think the apparent weakness of Russell in the races is overplayed. Verstappen was hardly trouble free in his first few years and I don't see too many people saying he should have spent more time at Toro Rosso before being promoted.

Can't see any reason he wouldn't do as well or better than Bottas if he was in the Mercedes. He'd certainly learn a lot more and faster compared to being in a team with Latifi.
There's been a lot of talk to say that the Toro Rossos( Rossi?)/Alpha Tauri have been designed to be easy to set up and drive in recent times, to help their young drivers - and the Williams has been perceived to be anything but. So that hints that Max was making mistakes early doors in a car that was easy to drive.
There was lots of talk at the time about Max's driving/crashing at TR. But when you get promoted to the big team and win your first race, it helps the counter argument a lot.

George has been learning how to drive an awkward car at the back of the pack and trying to do something (anything!) with it.
The one chance he had with the Merc he took as well as he could, with circumstances working against him. Yeah he's made a couple of mistakes in the Williams but seemingly when the glare of the cameras was on him ( behind safety car Imola, the chance to overtake a Merc) but I think that each time it was such a jump in pressure to what he was used to, the difficulty of driving the Williams made the issue worse. I don't really know how he;s been driving the last three years, as WIlliams Strategy doesn't seem to put him on the right tyres at the right time, or gamble very well either. When they do get in to a decent position they still tend to fade away.


having said that, I definitely think George to Merc next year. I think Valtteri will either go WEC or AM if Seb retires or maybe even rallying.

ch37

7,403 posts

187 months

Wednesday 19th May
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Worth remembering George has had those highlighted incidents because he's been well up the order (relatively speaking) and miles ahead of his teammate. He was racing Valtteri for position on merit. I think that fact alone is more important than the incident itself.

I think he's done as well as can be expected in a far from perfect car. Did we really expect to see a Williams coming close to Q3 or having multiple opportunities to get near the points? If they had two Latifi's we would have assumed the car simply isn't capable of anywhere near that.

resolve10

291 posts

11 months

Wednesday 19th May
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TheDeuce said:
I think he'd struggle to consistently bang in quali laps as fast as Bottas - that's Bottas's party trick...

I agree it's odd that people judge Russell as having poor race pace though, and I have no idea what the theory is based upon? Sure, he at best holds and normally loses position during a race, but wouldn't we expect that from the Williams car regardless of who drives it?? With the Merc PU and a fresh set of tyres, of course it can beat 'some' other cars, and Russell can probably beat some other drivers too. But in race trim, with it's lackluster aero (it's generations behind the rest) and it's generally unpredictable nature, there's no chance of reliably getting the best from the tyres over a race stint. Also apparently it's a shocker to drive in dirty air which will further complicate forward progress and also diminish tyre life.

I think we'd need to see him in a less compromised car before it's worth even having an opinion on his race pace.
I know you said consistently, but don't forget the one chance he got against Bottas in equal machinery with a couple of free practice sessions to get up to speed, he was right on his tail and narrowly missed pole. He also drags that Williams way higher up the grid in quali than he has any right to, which is probably why people question his race pace but the reality is the car is starting out of position and the very best he can hope for is to hold position or get lucky with a couple of retirements in the lower midfield.

My feeling is he will either be in the Merc next year, or he will make himself available to other teams. Ferarri and McLaren have their line ups pretty nailed down for the next couple of years but how much would Red Bull love to poach the Mercedes junior driver and beat them with their own guy? I won't be betting against it.

The talk of Ocon to Mercedes is interesting as he clearly hasn't got the outright speed to be a top, top driver but he could be a perfect Bottas v2. Steady away, doesn't make too many mistakes and qualifies OK.

RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat

12,756 posts

61 months

Wednesday 19th May
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I think the Ocon Mercedes ship has long since sailed.

MiniMan64

14,090 posts

156 months

Wednesday 19th May
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Russell should have been in the Aston this year instead of Seb really

talksthetorque

9,038 posts

101 months

Wednesday 19th May
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MiniMan64 said:
Russell should have been in the Aston this year instead of Seb really
I'm sure some of Seb's future plans and team duties are about coaching the gaffer's son and possibly other young drivers they have their eye on.
Although George is good, I don't think he's quite at the mentor stage yet.

Teddy Lop

5,145 posts

33 months

Wednesday 19th May
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resolve10 said:
I know you said consistently, but don't forget the one chance he got against Bottas in equal machinery with a couple of free practice sessions to get up to speed, he was right on his tail and narrowly missed pole. He also drags that Williams way higher up the grid in quali than he has any right to, which is probably why people question his race pace but the reality is the car is starting out of position and the very best he can hope for is to hold position or get lucky with a couple of retirements in the lower midfield.

My feeling is he will either be in the Merc next year, or he will make himself available to other teams. Ferarri and McLaren have their line ups pretty nailed down for the next couple of years but how much would Red Bull love to poach the Mercedes junior driver and beat them with their own guy? I won't be betting against it.

The talk of Ocon to Mercedes is interesting as he clearly hasn't got the outright speed to be a top, top driver but he could be a perfect Bottas v2. Steady away, doesn't make too many mistakes and qualifies OK.
RB should have made Russel an offer; force mercedes hand into moving him upstairs and see if it unsettles Hamilton?

HighwayStar

3,392 posts

110 months

Wednesday 19th May
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resolve10 said:
TheDeuce said:
I think he'd struggle to consistently bang in quali laps as fast as Bottas - that's Bottas's party trick...

I agree it's odd that people judge Russell as having poor race pace though, and I have no idea what the theory is based upon? Sure, he at best holds and normally loses position during a race, but wouldn't we expect that from the Williams car regardless of who drives it?? With the Merc PU and a fresh set of tyres, of course it can beat 'some' other cars, and Russell can probably beat some other drivers too. But in race trim, with it's lackluster aero (it's generations behind the rest) and it's generally unpredictable nature, there's no chance of reliably getting the best from the tyres over a race stint. Also apparently it's a shocker to drive in dirty air which will further complicate forward progress and also diminish tyre life.

I think we'd need to see him in a less compromised car before it's worth even having an opinion on his race pace.
I know you said consistently, but don't forget the one chance he got against Bottas in equal machinery with a couple of free practice sessions to get up to speed, he was right on his tail and narrowly missed pole. He also drags that Williams way higher up the grid in quali than he has any right to, which is probably why people question his race pace but the reality is the car is starting out of position and the very best he can hope for is to hold position or get lucky with a couple of retirements in the lower midfield.

My feeling is he will either be in the Merc next year, or he will make himself available to other teams. Ferarri and McLaren have their line ups pretty nailed down for the next couple of years but how much would Red Bull love to poach the Mercedes junior driver and beat them with their own guy? I won't be betting against it.

The talk of Ocon to Mercedes is interesting as he clearly hasn't got the outright speed to be a top, top driver but he could be a perfect Bottas v2. Steady away, doesn't make too many mistakes and qualifies OK.
Not taking anything away from Russell, he is clearly talented and has a bright future but.... he is more familiar with Mercedes than a couple of free practice sessions. He’s driven many laps at end of seasons tests in the Merc and hours in their simulator.
Of course he did the business when given the opportunity but that opportunity was based on a lot more than him dragging the Williams around and his success on more than a couple of free practice sessions.
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11877971/f...

resolve10

291 posts

11 months

Wednesday 19th May
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Teddy Lop said:
RB should have made Russel an offer; force mercedes hand into moving him upstairs and see if it unsettles Hamilton?
Couldn't really have happened this time round as he's under contract at Williams until the end of this season, but for 2022 who knows. As you say they can't really lose either way.

As much as I'd love to see it I don't think George would fancy lining up against Max.

SmoothCriminal

3,526 posts

165 months

Wednesday 19th May
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George has been hoodwinked by Toto.

I said when he came into F1 that he is wasting his career going to Williams.

Toto has said he placed Russel at Williams for "experience" what exact experience did he get running 3 or 4 seconds off the pace the guy was a proven winner now after running around at the back of the pack he panics when overtaking bottas and wipes them both out.

Georges piss must be boiling everyday when he sees Max and Charles winning races and he is at the back of the pack doing fk all.


HustleRussell

19,398 posts

126 months

Wednesday 19th May
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SmoothCriminal said:
George has been hoodwinked by Toto.

I said when he came into F1 that he is wasting his career going to Williams.

Toto has said he placed Russel at Williams for "experience" what exact experience did he get running 3 or 4 seconds off the pace the guy was a proven winner now after running around at the back of the pack he panics when overtaking bottas and wipes them both out.

Georges piss must be boiling everyday when he sees Max and Charles winning races and he is at the back of the pack doing fk all.
Nah. He has a clear path upward. He has already subbed for Hamilton once instead of Mercedes’ official reserve driver. He will have three years of F1 experience at the end of this season. The Williams is good enough for him to show his class, witness his many qualifying Q2s. Until this season he has had his team mate for comparison. This season he is a threat to the lower midfield. He was in a tussle with Alonso towards the end of the last GP. He will have his breakthrough point score for Williams this year. The notion that no F1 drive is better than a Williams drive is nonsense.

Is Russell in F1 right now if it wasn’t for Toto? Possibly.

Is Russell in the frame for a drive in the top team for 2022 without Toto?

liner33

8,484 posts

168 months

Thursday 20th May
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Russell may well go to Mercedes but not sure it will happen while Lewis is still there , he won't want him as a teammate and you can bet there will be something in his contract that will allow him at least input into teammate options . Thats perhaps why LH is trying to negotiate his contract now to head things off


I think George is between a rock and a hard place and waiting for the chance of a MB drive might be harming his career.

AJB88

7,724 posts

137 months

Thursday 20th May
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Hopefully he goes to Mercedes, ignores team orders and goes for the wins (saying this as a Ferrari fan).


n3il123

2,183 posts

179 months

Thursday 20th May
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liner33 said:
Russell may well go to Mercedes but not sure it will happen while Lewis is still there , he won't want him as a teammate and you can bet there will be something in his contract that will allow him at least input into teammate options . Thats perhaps why LH is trying to negotiate his contract now to head things off


I think George is between a rock and a hard place and waiting for the chance of a MB drive might be harming his career.
Russells problem is where does he go if not Mercedes.

The 2nd Red Bull seat hasn't exactly worked out for anyone recently.

Ferrari and Mclaren have both seats tied up long term.

Alpine maybe if Ocon or Alonso leave but that is still going to be a decent journey before they are race winners (imho)

Aston maybe if Seb quits, but i'm not convinced that would be a great move, what with Lance being prioritised.

Alpha Turi, Alfa Romeo and Haas aren't exactly a step up.


HustleRussell

19,398 posts

126 months

Thursday 20th May
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Clean sheet design for next year, and budget cap. Who’s to say that the 2022 Williams won’t be a step forward.

I think George is in a Mercedes alongside Hamilton next year though.