The Official F1 2021 silly season *contains speculation*

The Official F1 2021 silly season *contains speculation*

Author
Discussion

Gtom

849 posts

90 months

Sunday 18th October
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Is there not some kind of deal in place between Mercedes and Williams with regards to the power units and their driver? George gets ditched and the engine price goes up?

I have no idea if they actually do get cheaper engines because of George being there, it’s a genuine question.

HustleRussell

18,466 posts

118 months

Sunday 18th October
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Exige77 said:
Leclerc certainly stands out as the Newby elevated to the top tier with the help of a dodgy PU. Take that away and he is merely one of the new guys with potential. He’s also done / said a few stupid things.
Again, have you been watching? He arrived at Ferrari after one season in Alfa Romeo, immediately usurped self-styled Schumy II and the team’s chosen one and diminished his stocks to practically nothing, and scores impossible podiums and a 4th place in the severely hobbled Ferrari- the fourth or fifth best car this season depending on the circuit?

I know Vettel’s stocks are down now but that shouldn’t be allowed to diminish Leclerc’s achievements IMO.

ash73

19,259 posts

179 months

Sunday 18th October
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Callum43 said:
Of the young generation, other than Verstappen, who has done enough to show true greatness? LeClerc has won but probably every victory has been in an illegal car . The rest , Norris , Russell , Gasly, Ocon et al seem to attract more favourable speculation as stars of the future than maybe they’re due .
History suggests that the majority will top out as middle rankers and , as yet , I await any one of them to do something that stands out as extraordinary.
Hopefully somebody we don’t see on the radar at present will emerge to amaze us and do what Verstappen did . Fingers crossed .
Leclerc is chewing up and spitting out a 4x world champion, Gasly won a race in a AlphaTauri, Norris' mid-field scraps have been the highlight of the season for me, Russell is driving the wheels off a truck and 11-0 in quali (iirc)... these are not stand out performances for you?

MissChief

5,584 posts

126 months

Sunday 18th October
quotequote all
ash73 said:
Callum43 said:
Of the young generation, other than Verstappen, who has done enough to show true greatness? LeClerc has won but probably every victory has been in an illegal car . The rest , Norris , Russell , Gasly, Ocon et al seem to attract more favourable speculation as stars of the future than maybe they’re due .
History suggests that the majority will top out as middle rankers and , as yet , I await any one of them to do something that stands out as extraordinary.
Hopefully somebody we don’t see on the radar at present will emerge to amaze us and do what Verstappen did . Fingers crossed .
Leclerc is chewing up and spitting out a 4x world champion, Gasly won a race in a AlphaTauri, Norris' mid-field scraps have been the highlight of the season for me, Russell is driving the wheels off a truck and 11-0 in quali (iirc)... these are not stand out performances for you?
While I’m still unsure Gasly could take the pressure again at RB I’m expecting Sainz, Russell, Norris, Leclerc and Verstappen to be at each other like hammer and tongs for a decade or more assuming they get decent machinery. And I’m looking forward to it immensely.

jsf

19,250 posts

194 months

Sunday 18th October
quotequote all
Gtom said:
Is there not some kind of deal in place between Mercedes and Williams with regards to the power units and their driver? George gets ditched and the engine price goes up?

I have no idea if they actually do get cheaper engines because of George being there, it’s a genuine question.
Based on previous drivers I would expect Mercedes are paying Georges wages with Williams having a payment compensation clause if they take him early.

Exige77

5,421 posts

149 months

Sunday 18th October
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HustleRussell said:
Exige77 said:
Leclerc certainly stands out as the Newby elevated to the top tier with the help of a dodgy PU. Take that away and he is merely one of the new guys with potential. He’s also done / said a few stupid things.
Again, have you been watching? He arrived at Ferrari after one season in Alfa Romeo, immediately usurped self-styled Schumy II and the team’s chosen one and diminished his stocks to practically nothing, and scores impossible podiums and a 4th place in the severely hobbled Ferrari- the fourth or fifth best car this season depending on the circuit?

I know Vettel’s stocks are down now but that shouldn’t be allowed to diminish Leclerc’s achievements IMO.
I don’t think Vettel can be held up as any kind of benchmark. He’s broken.

I would rate Leclerc similar to Verstapen on last years “results” but I think we all suspect the Ferrari’s PU was not above board so what would his performances have been with a legal car ?

Certainly well below Verstapen’s ?

Gtom

849 posts

90 months

Sunday 18th October
quotequote all
jsf said:
Based on previous drivers I would expect Mercedes are paying Georges wages with Williams having a payment compensation clause if they take him early.
Is that what it was like with Pascal Werhlein?

He was touted as being the next big Mercedes star, never happened though.

MissChief

5,584 posts

126 months

Monday 19th October
quotequote all
Gtom said:
jsf said:
Based on previous drivers I would expect Mercedes are paying Georges wages with Williams having a payment compensation clause if they take him early.
Is that what it was like with Pascal Werhlein?

He was touted as being the next big Mercedes star, never happened though.
Apparently behind the scenes he was a right Diva, proper Drama queen. Racing Point, as FI then, were offered either him or Ocon in.....2016 I think it might have been. The team including mechanics were all against Pascal joining the team.

kiseca

8,270 posts

177 months

Monday 19th October
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Paul_M3 said:
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
Paul_M3 said:
It’s not ‘racing’ though, is it?

It’s just entertainment for those who like seeing somebody who doesn’t deserve to win get a trophy.
It's always been part of racing. Jim Clark would be much more highly decorated if his Loti/engine were not made from cheese.
I didn’t say it wasn’t a part of racing. I said it wasn’t racing. Seeing somebody 30 seconds in the lead grind to halt isn’t the same as watching somebody trying to find a way past the car in front.
How many on here, when the Red Bulls were breaking a Renault engine every second race, were getting excited about how much good Renault were doing for the sport? All I recall is ridicule aimed in Renault's direction.

If mechanical breakdowns were exciting, then the hybrid era must have had a few classic seasons so far.



Exige77 said:
Exactly this.

We as watchers want to be entertained.

Mercedes as a business want to win titles.
A winner and someone fending of the others is what they need as a business. No benefit in having two drivers tripping over each other.

Hamilton and Botas do have a go from time to time but have both kept it very clean.

Sure Mercedes want to keep Russel up to speed and ready for when they need him at some time in the future.
Mercedes seemed happy to keep Rosberg. Everything they've said suggests that Rosberg created more problems for them than he solved when he retired.

I think too many are assuming that Mercedes don't want someone as fast as Lewis. I think that's incorrect. They don't want two drivers who clash, and I'll agree that having two drivers closely matched on pace does increase that chance, but what Mercedes want to avoid is a toxic atmosphere in the team, and possibly the situation where one driver burns himself out and leaves them in the lurch at the end of a season again.

If there's someone as fast as, or worse, faster than Lewis on the grid, you can bet Mercedes would rather have them in their car than in a competitor's car. They have a bit of a cushion at the moment because there is no car as quick, but when Red Bull, Ferrari or someone else do get on the pace, I'll bet that driver relationships aren't going to be top of their priorities.

TheDeuce

7,268 posts

24 months

Monday 19th October
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kiseca said:
Mercedes seemed happy to keep Rosberg. Everything they've said suggests that Rosberg created more problems for them than he solved when he retired.

I think too many are assuming that Mercedes don't want someone as fast as Lewis. I think that's incorrect. They don't want two drivers who clash, and I'll agree that having two drivers closely matched on pace does increase that chance, but what Mercedes want to avoid is a toxic atmosphere in the team, and possibly the situation where one driver burns himself out and leaves them in the lurch at the end of a season again.

If there's someone as fast as, or worse, faster than Lewis on the grid, you can bet Mercedes would rather have them in their car than in a competitor's car. They have a bit of a cushion at the moment because there is no car as quick, but when Red Bull, Ferrari or someone else do get on the pace, I'll bet that driver relationships aren't going to be top of their priorities.
I'm sure problems were caused by Rosbergs surprise departure. Also a winning team with two WDC's is valuable in various ways commercially of course. So I have no issue believing they were disappointed when he left - and at the time it would have been a bit of headache deciding who should fill the seat and what they dynamic would be like...

However, there is no denying that in the end Bottas has worked out perfectly. He's blistering quick in quali, as is lewis, so both cars generally start at the front and effectively out of danger pretty much. They then behave impeccably if they end up wheel to wheel at the first corner. This is a TP's dream! Best of all year after year they re-release a new version of Bottas that is destined to actually be the same old Bottas - able and willing to do exactly what they need without complaint seemingly indefinitely.

Most staggering of all, they don't just 'get on', they appear to be respectful and friendly as team mates, entirely at ease with one another in fact.

kiseca

8,270 posts

177 months

Monday 19th October
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
I'm sure problems were caused by Rosbergs surprise departure. Also a winning team with two WDC's is valuable in various ways commercially of course. So I have no issue believing they were disappointed when he left - and at the time it would have been a bit of headache deciding who should fill the seat and what they dynamic would be like...

However, there is no denying that in the end Bottas has worked out perfectly. He's blistering quick in quali, as is lewis, so both cars generally start at the front and effectively out of danger pretty much. They then behave impeccably if they end up wheel to wheel at the first corner. This is a TP's dream! Best of all year after year they re-release a new version of Bottas that is destined to actually be the same old Bottas - able and willing to do exactly what they need without complaint seemingly indefinitely.

Most staggering of all, they don't just 'get on', they appear to be respectful and friendly as team mates, entirely at ease with one another in fact.
I'd agree almost, with the only blot on Bottas's record being he didn't collect 2nd in the championship in his first two years. Indeed, while Ferrari were strong challengers, there was a lot of speculation around the Mercedes camp about his future, and then came Bottas V2 and all that stuff.

What I take from that is that, when the competition is strong, they want two cars up front, not just one.

faa77

510 posts

29 months

Tuesday 20th October
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Any truth in this Gasly to Renault?

And Hulk to RBR?

MiniMan64

12,778 posts

148 months

Tuesday 20th October
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faa77 said:
Any truth in this Gasly to Renault?

And Hulk to RBR?
Hulk maybe but I thought Ocon was a lock in?

TheDeuce

7,268 posts

24 months

Tuesday 20th October
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MiniMan64 said:
faa77 said:
Any truth in this Gasly to Renault?

And Hulk to RBR?
Hulk maybe but I thought Ocon was a lock in?
Ocons team mate has taken more than double the points he has and put the car on the podium. I doubt he is all that locked in...

He does indeed have a second year at Renault in his contract, but they can break that contract for relatively little £££ I suspect. He's only on a few million a year anyway. If RBR needed the move to happen they could pay such costs to see it all through.

I'm not sure there is anything to the gasly>Renault rumour though. But I do see hulk to RB as likely, purely because it makes a great deal of sense - he's their best option that I can see, and they have the opportunity to test his performance next year without it affecting their WCC position either way (because whatever their second driver achieves, they're highly likely to end up 2nd in WCC regardless).

HTP99

17,130 posts

98 months

Tuesday 20th October
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MiniMan64 said:
faa77 said:
Any truth in this Gasly to Renault?

And Hulk to RBR?
Hulk maybe but I thought Ocon was a lock in?
I think Hulkenburg would be good for Red Bull, he's mature enough and seems strong enough mentally to cope with the team and the pressures that they seem to bring to their second driver.

faa77

510 posts

29 months

Tuesday 20th October
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
He does indeed have a second year at Renault in his contract, but they can break that contract for relatively little £££ I suspect. He's only on a few million a year anyway. If RBR needed the move to happen they could pay such costs to see it all through.
Did you mean Renault, not RBR? Presume so

ch37

6,357 posts

179 months

Tuesday 20th October
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HustleRussell said:
It’s obviously happened throughout the ages that promising drivers don’t convert their apparent potential or especially don’t score the right opportunities. However the drivers don’t just arrive in F1- the feeder series give a good indication. Russell in particular stands out here having consecutively won the GP3 and F2 championships first time of asking.
But somewhat weirdly, the general suggestion seems to be that he is too fast for a decent F1 seat (Mercedes), and therefore could end up with none at all?! That's a new low for F1 if that ends up being the case, I understand pay drivers, some talented folk never getting a chance etc etc etc, but if the rug is pulled from under Russell at this point that's a huge kick in the teeth considering some drivers on the grid next season.

Come to F1, out-qualifying your team-mates 32-0, lose your seat to a guy often half a second behind you in quali and a guy who bought a seat with Mexican telecommunications money.



TheDeuce

7,268 posts

24 months

Tuesday 20th October
quotequote all
faa77 said:
TheDeuce said:
He does indeed have a second year at Renault in his contract, but they can break that contract for relatively little £££ I suspect. He's only on a few million a year anyway. If RBR needed the move to happen they could pay such costs to see it all through.
Did you mean Renault, not RBR? Presume so
In the hypothetical situation whoever wanted the move to happen the most could pay off the contract(s). Would depend how keen RB were to see Gasly have a seat on a remote posting at Renault and if they did, something would have to be done to eject Ocon. Assuming Renault saw some value in that arrangement too.


patmahe

5,328 posts

162 months

Tuesday 20th October
quotequote all
MissChief said:
Gtom said:
jsf said:
Based on previous drivers I would expect Mercedes are paying Georges wages with Williams having a payment compensation clause if they take him early.
Is that what it was like with Pascal Werhlein?

He was touted as being the next big Mercedes star, never happened though.
Apparently behind the scenes he was a right Diva, proper Drama queen. Racing Point, as FI then, were offered either him or Ocon in.....2016 I think it might have been. The team including mechanics were all against Pascal joining the team.
I had heard this previously, seems amazing to have all the talent required to get to F1 and not be able to temper the Diva nature enough to keep your seat. F1 has had plenty of divas down through the years so he must have been especially bad if nobody wanted to work with him.

thegreenhell

7,658 posts

177 months

Tuesday 20th October
quotequote all
MiniMan64 said:
Hulk maybe but I thought Ocon was a lock in?
Cyril has come out and said that Ocon's performance isn't a disaster, which probably means that internally they think it is a disaster.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/abiteboul-ocon-...