Lewis Hamilton (Vol. 2)

Lewis Hamilton (Vol. 2)

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Discussion

vaud

37,671 posts

113 months

Tuesday 13th October
quotequote all
angrymoby said:
yes ...it's comparing against team mates
I don't follow what it is showing:

Alonso (2x WDC) - OK beat two team mates who became or were WDCs:

Raikkonen (2014); Button (2016)

Neither of the last two were WDCs in these years?

ghuk

59 posts

106 months

Tuesday 13th October
quotequote all
paulguitar said:
Some very interesting info (although ten years old) here:

https://www.motorsportsetc.com/info/spd_mon.htm

To update to recent times...


Hamilton's pole lap time Monaco 2019 1:10.166.

Ayton Senna 1989 pole 1:22.308

Jim Clark pole 1964 1:34

So Clark to Hamilton, lap time difference, 24 seconds. eek The difference in machinery is such that Clark would be lapped every three tours of the Monaco circuit...

These times, of course, do not in any way to diminish the efforts of Clark or any other drivers from times past, just demonstrate how completely different eras are. The 1960's drivers would have had very low g forces from the tyres of the time, and very little downforce. On the other hand, they knew if they made a mistake they were very likely to be in serious trouble.

I think that if Clark was driving today he'd be brilliant, and if Hamilton was driving in the 1960s, he'd be brilliant too. We have no real way of knowing that though. smile

To be fair the Monaco circuit was slightly changed around the swimming pool area from Senna's pole lap in 89 compared to the modern day. Not sure which year exactly the redesign was implemented but I reckon that it accounted for around 4-5 seconds

Then if you factor in that modern F1 cars appear to be cornering like on Scalextric tracks you realise just how far technology has pushed the envelope





angrymoby

1,246 posts

136 months

Tuesday 13th October
quotequote all
vaud said:
I don't follow what it is showing:

Alonso (2x WDC) - OK beat two team mates who became or were WDCs:

Raikkonen (2014); Button (2016)

Neither of the last two were WDCs in these years?
it's the years they were team mates

vaud

37,671 posts

113 months

Tuesday 13th October
quotequote all
angrymoby said:
it's the years they were team mates
Ah.

paulguitar

7,980 posts

71 months

Tuesday 13th October
quotequote all
ghuk said:
To be fair the Monaco circuit was slightly changed around the swimming pool area from Senna's pole lap in 89 compared to the modern day. Not sure which year exactly the redesign was implemented but I reckon that it accounted for around 4-5 seconds

Then if you factor in that modern F1 cars appear to be cornering like on Scalextric tracks you realise just how far technology has pushed the envelope
Yes, I did remember that Monaco had seen a change around that part of the track. This makes it more difficult to compare, of course. What I'd really wanted to find was what sort of a lap time something like a Lotus 49 would do around the current Silverstone configuration, so we could compare with the Mercedes 1:24 pole pace, but I was not able to find anything on that. Maybe someone here plays a SIM game or something of that nature and could give some kind of estimate?







vdn

7,731 posts

161 months

Tuesday 13th October
quotequote all
RichB said:
Am I missing a subtle point about that list because Stewart and Schumacher are missing (and perhaps a few other)?


angrymoby said:
Driver WDC WDCs Beaten Comment
Alain Prost 4 5 Lauda (1985); Rosberg (1986); Senna (1989); Mansell (1990); Hill (1993)
Lewis Hamilton 3 3 Alonso (2007); Button (2010, 2012); Rosberg (2013, 2014, 2015)
Jenson Button 1 3 Villeneuve (2003); Hamilton (2011); Alonso (2015)
Niki Lauda 3 2 Piquet (1979); Prost (1984)
Fernando Alonso 2 2 Raikkonen (2014); Button (2016)
Alberto Ascari 2 2 Farina, Hawthorn (1953)
Nico Rosberg 1 2 Schumacher (2010, 2011, 2012); Hamilton (2016)
Keke Rosberg 1 2 Fittipaldi (1980); Mansell (1985)
Juan Manuel Fangio 5 1 Farina (1951)
Sebastian Vettel 4 1 Raikkonen (2015, 2016)
Ayrton Senna 3 1 Prost (1988)
Jack Brabham 3 1 Hulme (1965, 1966)
Nelson Piquet 3 1 Mansell (1987)
Emerson Fittipaldi 2 1 Hulme (1973)
Graham Hill 2 1 Stewart (1965, 1966)
Jim Clark 2 1 Hill (1967)
Damon Hill 1 1 Villeneuve (1996)
Giuseppe Farina 1 1 Hawthorn (1953)
Jochen Rindt 1 1 Brabham (1968)
John Surtees 1 1 Rindt (1966)
Nigel Mansell 1 1 Piquet (1986)


this was from 2016/17 ...needs updating
The table is one stat / record that I think Hamilton won’t break... never the less, second is a good show!

RB Will

6,522 posts

198 months

Tuesday 13th October
quotequote all
paulguitar said:
Yes, I did remember that Monaco had seen a change around that part of the track. This makes it more difficult to compare, of course. What I'd really wanted to find was what sort of a lap time something like a Lotus 49 would do around the current Silverstone configuration, so we could compare with the Mercedes 1:24 pole pace, but I was not able to find anything on that. Maybe someone here plays a SIM game or something of that nature and could give some kind of estimate?
A friend of mine races a classic F1 car, can’t remember if the series is Masters or Historic GP but they use current tracks, he got pole at Silverstone last year, you might be able to find the times, I think it was wet though

thegreenhell

7,658 posts

177 months

Tuesday 13th October
quotequote all
vaud said:
I don't follow what it is showing:

Alonso (2x WDC) - OK beat two team mates who became or were WDCs:

Raikkonen (2014); Button (2016)

Neither of the last two were WDCs in these years?
It would be a short list if it was people who finished ahead of that year's champion.

RichB

43,807 posts

242 months

Tuesday 13th October
quotequote all
angrymoby said:
RichB said:
Am I missing a subtle point about that list because Stewart and Schumacher are missing (and perhaps a few other)?
yes ...it's comparing against team mates
Got you, (I think), so Stewart and Schumacher never had a WDC as a team mate?

thegreenhell

7,658 posts

177 months

Tuesday 13th October
quotequote all
RichB said:
angrymoby said:
RichB said:
Am I missing a subtle point about that list because Stewart and Schumacher are missing (and perhaps a few other)?
yes ...it's comparing against team mates
Got you, (I think), so Stewart and Schumacher never had a WDC as a team mate?
They did, but they never beat a past or future WDC team mate. JYS was beaten by Graham Hill, and Schumacher was beaten by both Piquet and Nico Rosberg.

RichB

43,807 posts

242 months

Tuesday 13th October
quotequote all
thumbup

paulguitar

7,980 posts

71 months

Tuesday 13th October
quotequote all
RB Will said:
paulguitar said:
Yes, I did remember that Monaco had seen a change around that part of the track. This makes it more difficult to compare, of course. What I'd really wanted to find was what sort of a lap time something like a Lotus 49 would do around the current Silverstone configuration, so we could compare with the Mercedes 1:24 pole pace, but I was not able to find anything on that. Maybe someone here plays a SIM game or something of that nature and could give some kind of estimate?
A friend of mine races a classic F1 car, can’t remember if the series is Masters or Historic GP but they use current tracks, he got pole at Silverstone last year, you might be able to find the times, I think it was wet though
I've found some times the F1 Masters drivers did for the 2018 Silverstone Classic on the full current circuit. Pole was Nick Padmore in the dry 1:55.3 in a Williams FW07, which I believe is the car Alan Jones won the title with in 1980. So, 31 seconds shy of the 2019 Hamilton pole in the W10. Obviously, Hamilton would account for some of that gap, but there are some handy drivers in the Masters, Martin Stretton, et al. It's pretty astonishing to see just how crazy the gap is to the current cars. eek






thegreenhell

7,658 posts

177 months

Tuesday 13th October
quotequote all
paulguitar said:
I've found some times the F1 Masters drivers did for the 2018 Silverstone Classic on the full current circuit. Pole was Nick Padmore in the dry 1:55.3 in a Williams FW07, which I believe is the car Alan Jones won the title with in 1980. So, 31 seconds shy of the 2019 Hamilton pole in the W10. Obviously, Hamilton would account for some of that gap, but there are some handy drivers in the Masters, Martin Stretton, et al. It's pretty astonishing to see just how crazy the gap is to the current cars. eek
And the historics use a slightly different circuit layout, with a much faster entry into Club than the tight Vale corner used in F1.

paulguitar

7,980 posts

71 months

Tuesday 13th October
quotequote all
thegreenhell said:
And the historics use a slightly different circuit layout, with a much faster entry into Club than the tight Vale corner used in F1.
Ah, so they stay to the left and skip the very slow Vale lefthander?




thegreenhell

7,658 posts

177 months

Tuesday 13th October
quotequote all
paulguitar said:
thegreenhell said:
And the historics use a slightly different circuit layout, with a much faster entry into Club than the tight Vale corner used in F1.
Ah, so they stay to the left and skip the very slow Vale lefthander?

Yes, exactly.


paulguitar

7,980 posts

71 months

Tuesday 13th October
quotequote all
thegreenhell said:
paulguitar said:
thegreenhell said:
And the historics use a slightly different circuit layout, with a much faster entry into Club than the tight Vale corner used in F1.
Ah, so they stay to the left and skip the very slow Vale lefthander?

Yes, exactly.

That looks like a lot of fun, enjoyed that lap!

I also wish the current F1 cars got to use that layout to miss out Vale, it's almost a dead stop. I found it very irritating when I did a track day a few years ago. driving



glazbagun

10,964 posts

155 months

Tuesday 13th October
quotequote all
thegreenhell said:
It would be a short list if it was people who finished ahead of that year's champion.
Prost beating Lauda & Senna.
Nico beating Lewis.

Anyone else?

M5-911

238 posts

3 months

Wednesday 14th October
quotequote all
I think that Toto shut the debates :

“I don’t want to allow these voices that say ‘well he drives a Mercedes, it’s obvious that he wins these races’.

“Well the drivers who say that, they should try and analyze why they haven’t found their way into a Mercedes"

C70R

6,912 posts

62 months

Wednesday 14th October
quotequote all
I can't imagine the mindset of an F1 fan who looks at a driver equalling/breaking records, and then actively tries to find fault with them.

I'm not Lewis's biggest fan, but I love seeing determined people succeed and love seeing a Brit doing well in F1.

vaud

37,671 posts

113 months

Wednesday 14th October
quotequote all
I've applied a complex set of maths and analysis to come up with a definitive list:

Hamilton: Brilliant
Schumacher: Brilliant
Senna: Brilliant
Prost: Brilliant
Fangio: Brilliant

etc

wink