Hulkenberg. Wow.

Hulkenberg. Wow.

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Discussion

MikeyC

836 posts

185 months

Tuesday 11th August
quotequote all
NAS said:
Muzzer79 said:
Cold, hard truth is that he's just not quick enough.
He did win plenty of championships /key races though, when he had a competitive car. A1GP, F3, GP2, Le Mans etc.

What I'm saying is : I disagree. smile
+1
Yeah, doesn't take too much investigation to find this stuff out

I think Ross Brawn would have been better to have not mentioned about considering him at MB - bit of a kick in the teeth for NH !

thegreenhell

7,658 posts

177 months

Tuesday 11th August
quotequote all
sgtBerbatov said:
Exactly.

And they talk about the pole he got with Williams. They forget though that the qualifying format was different then. The other drivers had gone out on a wet track that was drying. When he got to go out, he stuck some dry tyres on and got the pole. He was the last car out as well.
The qualifying format was the same knockout format that is still used now, so all the top ten cars were out on track at the same time.

The first two sessions and the first minutes of the final session were run on a damp circuit, and as such, drivers used intermediate compound tyres. After lap times were 108 per cent slower than in dry weather, every driver changed to dry weather tyres with five minutes to go when a dry line emerged and increased grip.

The difference was that he was the first to change from inters to slicks, so he had more time on them to get up to speed, but he was still over a second faster than anyone else.

Muzzer79

3,775 posts

145 months

Tuesday 11th August
quotequote all
MikeyC said:
NAS said:
Muzzer79 said:
Cold, hard truth is that he's just not quick enough.
He did win plenty of championships /key races though, when he had a competitive car. A1GP, F3, GP2, Le Mans etc.

What I'm saying is : I disagree. smile
+1
Yeah, doesn't take too much investigation to find this stuff out

I think Ross Brawn would have been better to have not mentioned about considering him at MB - bit of a kick in the teeth for NH !
We’re not talking about GP2 or F3 or Le Mans. We’re talking about F1 and he wasn’t quick enough in it.

Plenty of drivers were quick in GP2 but couldn’t cut it in F1.

Davide Valsecchi, Giorgio Pantano & Jolyon Palmer to name but three.

faa77

510 posts

29 months

Wednesday 12th August
quotequote all
Apparently Alfa Romeo interested in Hulk, but that would be a step down.

What's the chances of RBR wanting Hulk?

MikeyC

836 posts

185 months

Wednesday 12th August
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
MikeyC said:
NAS said:
Muzzer79 said:
Cold, hard truth is that he's just not quick enough.
He did win plenty of championships /key races though, when he had a competitive car. A1GP, F3, GP2, Le Mans etc.

What I'm saying is : I disagree. smile
+1
Yeah, doesn't take too much investigation to find this stuff out

I think Ross Brawn would have been better to have not mentioned about considering him at MB - bit of a kick in the teeth for NH !
We’re not talking about GP2 or F3 or Le Mans. We’re talking about F1 and he wasn’t quick enough in it.

Plenty of drivers were quick in GP2 but couldn’t cut it in F1.

Davide Valsecchi, Giorgio Pantano & Jolyon Palmer to name but three.
So he hops into a car he's never driven at short notice and ultimately puts it into P3 on the grid
I'm guessing if he'd got pole you'd still be peddling this 'not quick enough' line !

You're welcome to your opinion, but strangely enough, others may disagree ......

REALIST123

14,015 posts

111 months

Wednesday 12th August
quotequote all
MikeyC said:
Muzzer79 said:
MikeyC said:
NAS said:
Muzzer79 said:
Cold, hard truth is that he's just not quick enough.
He did win plenty of championships /key races though, when he had a competitive car. A1GP, F3, GP2, Le Mans etc.

What I'm saying is : I disagree. smile
+1
Yeah, doesn't take too much investigation to find this stuff out

I think Ross Brawn would have been better to have not mentioned about considering him at MB - bit of a kick in the teeth for NH !
We’re not talking about GP2 or F3 or Le Mans. We’re talking about F1 and he wasn’t quick enough in it.

Plenty of drivers were quick in GP2 but couldn’t cut it in F1.

Davide Valsecchi, Giorgio Pantano & Jolyon Palmer to name but three.
So he hops into a car he's never driven at short notice and ultimately puts it into P3 on the grid
I'm guessing if he'd got pole you'd still be peddling this 'not quick enough' line !

You're welcome to your opinion, but strangely enough, others may disagree ......
Maybe the car’s a lot better than the regular drivers have ever been able to show?

Hulkenberg’s a good driver but has never, perhaps, been one of the best in F1. To do what he’s done says more about Perez and Stroll than it does about himself.

MikeyC

836 posts

185 months

Wednesday 12th August
quotequote all
REALIST123 said:
Maybe the car’s a lot better than the regular drivers have ever been able to show?

Hulkenberg’s a good driver but has never, perhaps, been one of the best in F1. To do what he’s done says more about Perez and Stroll than it does about himself.
Yes, good assessement
It's taken a 'not good enough' driver to prove that the car is actually pretty good (well there were already hints of that)

But this gives Aston Martin some interesting descisions to make in the not too distant future smile





Muzzer79

3,775 posts

145 months

Wednesday 12th August
quotequote all
MikeyC said:
Muzzer79 said:
MikeyC said:
NAS said:
Muzzer79 said:
Cold, hard truth is that he's just not quick enough.
He did win plenty of championships /key races though, when he had a competitive car. A1GP, F3, GP2, Le Mans etc.

What I'm saying is : I disagree. smile
+1
Yeah, doesn't take too much investigation to find this stuff out

I think Ross Brawn would have been better to have not mentioned about considering him at MB - bit of a kick in the teeth for NH !
We’re not talking about GP2 or F3 or Le Mans. We’re talking about F1 and he wasn’t quick enough in it.

Plenty of drivers were quick in GP2 but couldn’t cut it in F1.

Davide Valsecchi, Giorgio Pantano & Jolyon Palmer to name but three.
So he hops into a car he's never driven at short notice and ultimately puts it into P3 on the grid
I'm guessing if he'd got pole you'd still be peddling this 'not quick enough' line !

You're welcome to your opinion, but strangely enough, others may disagree ......
If he'd have got pole, yes I'd still be "peddling" the not quick enough line.

He had 9 seasons to show what he could do. He wasn't fast enough, so he got dropped and didn't get another drive.
If he was fast enough, he'd still be in F1.

There's been no big conspiracy - he wasn't robbed. He just didn't drive fast enough. It's a results-based business.

One third place or even one pole would not change that. Same as a football striker who only gets 4 goals a season then bangs one in the top corner in the FA Cup final. Great, but doesn't mean you'd sign him.

MikeyC said:
REALIST123 said:
Maybe the car’s a lot better than the regular drivers have ever been able to show?

Hulkenberg’s a good driver but has never, perhaps, been one of the best in F1. To do what he’s done says more about Perez and Stroll than it does about himself.
Yes, good assessement
It's taken a 'not good enough' driver to prove that the car is actually pretty good (well there were already hints of that)

But this gives Aston Martin some interesting descisions to make in the not too distant future smile
Nope

They'll sign Vettel to partner Stroll Jr.



Mr_Thyroid

1,889 posts

185 months

Wednesday 12th August
quotequote all
I feel like there's a lot of preconceived ideas about Stroll and Perez overshadowing what they have already achieved in the car.

Yes the first 3 races were a bit scruffy but, except for damaging his wing in Styria, Perez would have finished fourth. They qualified third and fourth in Hungary and Stroll finished fourth. It wasn't a surprise when they locked out the second row because anyone who been paying attention already knew they had the second or third best car. So it shouldn't be a surprise that Hulk was able to qualify third and when Perez returns I predict he will achieve several more row 2 starts.

Hulk is a decent driver but outside of quali in Brazil 2010 and the race in 2012 has he really done much to stand out (even Maldonado was able to produce 1 special quali and 1 special race except he did his on the same weekend).

kiseca

8,270 posts

177 months

Wednesday 12th August
quotequote all
REALIST123 said:
Hulkenberg’s a good driver but has never, perhaps, been one of the best in F1. To do what he’s done says more about Perez and Stroll than it does about himself.
It can't say anything about Perez and Stroll without saying the opposite in equal measure about Hulkenberg.

You can't say that when the package is slow it's the driver, but when they change the driver and all of the sudden the package is quick, it's the car. The car is a constant. The difference was the driver.

Anyway, all that qualifying showed was that at Silverstone, Hulk seems quicker than Stroll (but still lost to him in the race because of that extra pit stop). We have no idea how Perez would have done.




REALIST123

14,015 posts

111 months

Wednesday 12th August
quotequote all
kiseca said:
REALIST123 said:
Hulkenberg’s a good driver but has never, perhaps, been one of the best in F1. To do what he’s done says more about Perez and Stroll than it does about himself.
It can't say anything about Perez and Stroll without saying the opposite in equal measure about Hulkenberg.

You can't say that when the package is slow it's the driver, but when they change the driver and all of the sudden the package is quick, it's the car. The car is a constant. The difference was the driver.

Anyway, all that qualifying showed was that at Silverstone, Hulk seems quicker than Stroll (but still lost to him in the race because of that extra pit stop). We have no idea how Perez would have done.
I would suggest Perez would have been, as he generally is, just ahead of Stroll, all things being equal. Which would make him about the same as Hulkenberg after many months out of the car. Maybe.

I doubt many would put Hulkenberg in the top 25%, just for example, of F1 drivers which would suggest that the ’ package’ could be quicker than it is made to look by Perez and Stroll, given that a fairly middling driver after a long layoff, equalled or bettered them both.

I’d quite like to see Vettel in that car, which would give us another take on it. At his worst I suspect he’d be faster than the others.




kiseca

8,270 posts

177 months

Wednesday 12th August
quotequote all
REALIST123 said:
kiseca said:
REALIST123 said:
Hulkenberg’s a good driver but has never, perhaps, been one of the best in F1. To do what he’s done says more about Perez and Stroll than it does about himself.
It can't say anything about Perez and Stroll without saying the opposite in equal measure about Hulkenberg.

You can't say that when the package is slow it's the driver, but when they change the driver and all of the sudden the package is quick, it's the car. The car is a constant. The difference was the driver.

Anyway, all that qualifying showed was that at Silverstone, Hulk seems quicker than Stroll (but still lost to him in the race because of that extra pit stop). We have no idea how Perez would have done.
I would suggest Perez would have been, as he generally is, just ahead of Stroll, all things being equal. Which would make him about the same as Hulkenberg after many months out of the car. Maybe.

I doubt many would put Hulkenberg in the top 25%, just for example, of F1 drivers which would suggest that the ’ package’ could be quicker than it is made to look by Perez and Stroll, given that a fairly middling driver after a long layoff, equalled or bettered them both.

I’d quite like to see Vettel in that car, which would give us another take on it. At his worst I suspect he’d be faster than the others.
The problem I see with your reasoning is that you're using Hulk as a known yardstick by which to judge the other drivers, in other words no matter what he did in that car, your reference point is already set so you use it to rate the other two drivers instead.

This doesn't mean I disagree with your conclusions to any great extent. I'd certainly put Hulk in the top half, maybe not the top quarter. Ricciardo had the better of him but not hugely, but then I'm doing exactly the same thing I'm saying you've done. I already have a rating for Ricciardo, and it's high, so when the two drivers can be compared and are close, for me that pulls Hulk up instead of pulling Ricciardo down.

Very hard to be objective about it. But, accepting that, I also agree with you on Vettel, I think he would be faster than all of them.... as long as I don't think too hard about Ricciardo vs Vettel at Red Bull compared to Ricciardo vs Hulk at Renault....

I think most people were impressed with Hulk's qualifying. I wasn't expecting much from him in the race and I did feel a bit for the guy with that extra tyre stop. Meanwhile Ricciardo went backwards (literally at one point)... but I think Hulk would have done a lot better this last weekend had he been able to compete the weekend before, but once again his bad luck nailed him.

thegreenhell

7,658 posts

177 months

Wednesday 12th August
quotequote all
Perez and Hulk were generally fairly evenly matched when they were teammates for three years. It's no surprise that Hulk performed as well as we might have expected Perez to have done.

kiseca

8,270 posts

177 months

Thursday 13th August
quotequote all
huh, I forgot they'd been team mates!

C70R

Original Poster:

6,912 posts

62 months

Thursday 13th August
quotequote all
kiseca said:
REALIST123 said:
kiseca said:
REALIST123 said:
Hulkenberg’s a good driver but has never, perhaps, been one of the best in F1. To do what he’s done says more about Perez and Stroll than it does about himself.
It can't say anything about Perez and Stroll without saying the opposite in equal measure about Hulkenberg.

You can't say that when the package is slow it's the driver, but when they change the driver and all of the sudden the package is quick, it's the car. The car is a constant. The difference was the driver.

Anyway, all that qualifying showed was that at Silverstone, Hulk seems quicker than Stroll (but still lost to him in the race because of that extra pit stop). We have no idea how Perez would have done.
I would suggest Perez would have been, as he generally is, just ahead of Stroll, all things being equal. Which would make him about the same as Hulkenberg after many months out of the car. Maybe.

I doubt many would put Hulkenberg in the top 25%, just for example, of F1 drivers which would suggest that the ’ package’ could be quicker than it is made to look by Perez and Stroll, given that a fairly middling driver after a long layoff, equalled or bettered them both.

I’d quite like to see Vettel in that car, which would give us another take on it. At his worst I suspect he’d be faster than the others.
The problem I see with your reasoning is that you're using Hulk as a known yardstick by which to judge the other drivers, in other words no matter what he did in that car, your reference point is already set so you use it to rate the other two drivers instead.

This doesn't mean I disagree with your conclusions to any great extent. I'd certainly put Hulk in the top half, maybe not the top quarter. Ricciardo had the better of him but not hugely, but then I'm doing exactly the same thing I'm saying you've done. I already have a rating for Ricciardo, and it's high, so when the two drivers can be compared and are close, for me that pulls Hulk up instead of pulling Ricciardo down.

Very hard to be objective about it. But, accepting that, I also agree with you on Vettel, I think he would be faster than all of them.... as long as I don't think too hard about Ricciardo vs Vettel at Red Bull compared to Ricciardo vs Hulk at Renault....

I think most people were impressed with Hulk's qualifying. I wasn't expecting much from him in the race and I did feel a bit for the guy with that extra tyre stop. Meanwhile Ricciardo went backwards (literally at one point)... but I think Hulk would have done a lot better this last weekend had he been able to compete the weekend before, but once again his bad luck nailed him.
This is the interesting point about subjective comparisons. It's only been a couple of seasons since Ricciardo was being touted as a "future world champion" by pundits and fans alike. Where does that now leave Hulk?

MikeyC

836 posts

185 months

Thursday 13th August
quotequote all
kiseca said:
I think most people were impressed with Hulk's qualifying. I wasn't expecting much from him in the race and I did feel a bit for the guy with that extra tyre stop. Meanwhile Ricciardo went backwards (literally at one point)... but I think Hulk would have done a lot better this last weekend had he been able to compete the weekend before, but once again his bad luck nailed him.
I'm still surprised ppl think he's 'slow'
Luck seems to desert him quite often - as per your last sentence !

A 'not quick enough' driver to me would be... Damon Hill
Looking at his qualifying stats in his early years would make you blush
Beaten by Eric van de Poele (who you say!)
Beaten by Prost - he was ~0.6% slower
Comprehensively thrashed by Senna ~1.3%
And then somehow he becomes WDC, a bit of luck being in the right car at the right time.....
Just shows how lady luck can play her hand
maybe get back OT

Edited by MikeyC on Thursday 13th August 09:29

TheDeuce

7,268 posts

24 months

Thursday 13th August
quotequote all
And it's over... https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.breakin...

Hulk at least got one shot and did probably do all that was required for a team to at least consider him for a seat in the future if one should somehow become available.

TwentyFive

221 posts

24 months

Thursday 13th August
quotequote all
It is interesting to read the views on Hulkenberg and his abilities.

I like Nico, and believe he should be in F1. Do I think he is one of quickest in the sport... No. Do I think he is far more deserving of an F1 drive than others currently in F1... Yes.

I think he did a really solid job at Silverstone and see nothing wrong with the praise he has been getting but also agree that needs to be tempered somewhat when you consider he was driving the most competitive car he ever had in F1 and the fact that he has been fairly anonymous for large parts of his career. There have been moments mentioned by others such as Brazil 2010 and then him throwing away a podium there in 2012 but apart from that I do struggle remember anything stand out from him.

I would like to see him in F1 full time but given the available teams I think he would be far better off looking towards getting aligned to a manufacturer in WEC as they move toward the new hypercar rules. He could build a very solid career for himself there and be highly successful. He has already shown an aptitude for endurance racing with his win at Le Mans in 2015 and would be an asset in that paddock.


nickfrog

12,592 posts

175 months

Thursday 13th August
quotequote all
Out of Perez, Hulk, Stroll and Vettel it would be funny if RP ended up picking the two lesser drivers for 2021.

Stuart70

2,120 posts

141 months

Thursday 13th August
quotequote all
nickfrog said:
Out of Perez, Hulk, Stroll and Vettel it would be funny if RP ended up picking the two lesser drivers for 2021.
Vettel and Hulk, you mean?