Hulkenberg. Wow.
Discussion
TwentyFive said:
HustleRussell said:
Stuart70 said:
nickfrog said:
Out of Perez, Hulk, Stroll and Vettel it would be funny if RP ended up picking the two lesser drivers for 2021.
Vettel and Hulk, you mean?Does he?
For me the ‘two lesser drivers’ are Stroll and whichever the least good of the other three is- which is debatable.
Right now I would say the two weakest are Stroll and Vettel but that's a fluid thing weekend to weekend.
If I had to pick two with consideration given both for value for money and a consistent pair of drivers then I would take Perez and Hulkenberg. On outright ability on their best days then I would take Vettel and Perez.
otherwise his dad will fire me
TwentyFive said:
It is interesting to read the views on Hulkenberg and his abilities.
I like Nico, and believe he should be in F1. Do I think he is one of quickest in the sport... No. Do I think he is far more deserving of an F1 drive than others currently in F1... Yes.
I think he did a really solid job at Silverstone and see nothing wrong with the praise he has been getting but also agree that needs to be tempered somewhat when you consider he was driving the most competitive car he ever had in F1 and the fact that he has been fairly anonymous for large parts of his career. There have been moments mentioned by others such as Brazil 2010 and then him throwing away a podium there in 2012 but apart from that I do struggle remember anything stand out from him.
I would like to see him in F1 full time but given the available teams I think he would be far better off looking towards getting aligned to a manufacturer in WEC as they move toward the new hypercar rules. He could build a very solid career for himself there and be highly successful. He has already shown an aptitude for endurance racing with his win at Le Mans in 2015 and would be an asset in that paddock.
Excellent post, I fully agree.I like Nico, and believe he should be in F1. Do I think he is one of quickest in the sport... No. Do I think he is far more deserving of an F1 drive than others currently in F1... Yes.
I think he did a really solid job at Silverstone and see nothing wrong with the praise he has been getting but also agree that needs to be tempered somewhat when you consider he was driving the most competitive car he ever had in F1 and the fact that he has been fairly anonymous for large parts of his career. There have been moments mentioned by others such as Brazil 2010 and then him throwing away a podium there in 2012 but apart from that I do struggle remember anything stand out from him.
I would like to see him in F1 full time but given the available teams I think he would be far better off looking towards getting aligned to a manufacturer in WEC as they move toward the new hypercar rules. He could build a very solid career for himself there and be highly successful. He has already shown an aptitude for endurance racing with his win at Le Mans in 2015 and would be an asset in that paddock.
HustleRussell said:
Stuart70 said:
nickfrog said:
Out of Perez, Hulk, Stroll and Vettel it would be funny if RP ended up picking the two lesser drivers for 2021.
Vettel and Hulk, you mean?Does he?
For me the ‘two lesser drivers’ are Stroll and whichever the least good of the other three is- which is debatable.
Stuart70 said:
HustleRussell said:
Stuart70 said:
nickfrog said:
Out of Perez, Hulk, Stroll and Vettel it would be funny if RP ended up picking the two lesser drivers for 2021.
Vettel and Hulk, you mean?Does he?
For me the ‘two lesser drivers’ are Stroll and whichever the least good of the other three is- which is debatable.
Perez is lighter and brings money while Hulk is bulk and expects a salary. I guess that’s why Hulk lost the game of musical chairs last year.
How much better is Vettel? Quantified as a salary? I tend to think he’s more about credibility / a statement of intent.
I’m finding the latest incarnation of Racing Point much harder to like since Lawrence has started directing things.
HustleRussell said:
Perez is lighter and brings money while Hulk is bulk and expects a salary. I guess that’s why Hulk lost the game of musical chairs last year.
The "Hulkenberg is heavy" fact gets thrown around quite a lot, but how much difference does it actually make in the current cars? How heavy is Hamilton? - he looks pretty stacked these days. Mr_Thyroid said:
HustleRussell said:
Perez is lighter and brings money while Hulk is bulk and expects a salary. I guess that’s why Hulk lost the game of musical chairs last year.
The "Hulkenberg is heavy" fact gets thrown around quite a lot, but how much difference does it actually make in the current cars? How heavy is Hamilton? - he looks pretty stacked these days. The regs were changed for 2019 IIRC so that there was a minimum defined weight for driver + seat which no current driver would be in excess of. This almost nullified the advantage of being a light driver. There is still a very slight advantage in that you can achieve a lower CoG if the weight is in the seat rather than on the driver. Hence Hamilton and others allowing themselves more muscle in recent years.
HustleRussell said:
Mr_Thyroid said:
HustleRussell said:
Perez is lighter and brings money while Hulk is bulk and expects a salary. I guess that’s why Hulk lost the game of musical chairs last year.
The "Hulkenberg is heavy" fact gets thrown around quite a lot, but how much difference does it actually make in the current cars? How heavy is Hamilton? - he looks pretty stacked these days. The regs were changed for 2019 IIRC so that there was a minimum defined weight for driver + seat which no current driver would be in excess of. This almost nullified the advantage of being a light driver. There is still a very slight advantage in that you can achieve a lower CoG if the weight is in the seat rather than on the driver. Hence Hamilton and others allowing themselves more muscle in recent years.
His height should be a disadvantage too, a smaller driver can have a smaller car, and a smaller car creates less drag. But clearly he fits into Perez's car so not sure how much relevance to put on that either..
kiseca said:
I think there was a change a few years earlier where minimum car weight had to include the driver and kit as well. That was also at the time predicted to remove Hulk's disadvantage. I remember a few commentators saying things like imagine how much faster Hulk would be without his weight disadvantage...
His height should be a disadvantage too, a smaller driver can have a smaller car, and a smaller car creates less drag. But clearly he fits into Perez's car so not sure how much relevance to put on that either..
Lighter drivers still had a useful advantage under that previous rule, as the engineers could put the ballast wherever they wanted. It was a setup variable that they could optimize to achieve best balance which wasn't available to drivers who carried that weight upon their person. His height should be a disadvantage too, a smaller driver can have a smaller car, and a smaller car creates less drag. But clearly he fits into Perez's car so not sure how much relevance to put on that either..
I heard that Hulk is only 2cm taller than Stroll so no biggy in the current Racing Point but would he fit into the 2020 McLaren for instance where they have Norris and Sainz?
ISTR a tall driver possibly Ocon being ruled out of a drive at one of the teams as they put him in the car and he was too tall. Might've been McLaren actually.
kiseca said:
His height should be a disadvantage too, a smaller driver can have a smaller car, and a smaller car creates less drag. But clearly he fits into Perez's car so not sure how much relevance to put on that either..
They don't make a bigger car for taller drivers. Although their helmet will probably be slightly higher in the cockpit and may slightly disrupt airflow into the air intake and maybe to and even lesser extent onto the rear wing.But if Renault considered his height when they dumped Hulkenberg they chose the wrong replacement - Ocon being 2cm taller (according to the internet).
Mr_Thyroid said:
kiseca said:
His height should be a disadvantage too, a smaller driver can have a smaller car, and a smaller car creates less drag. But clearly he fits into Perez's car so not sure how much relevance to put on that either..
They don't make a bigger car for taller drivers. Although their helmet will probably be slightly higher in the cockpit and may slightly disrupt airflow into the air intake and maybe to and even lesser extent onto the rear wing.But if Renault considered his height when they dumped Hulkenberg they chose the wrong replacement - Ocon being 2cm taller (according to the internet).
Ocon missed a potential 'chance' to stand in for Russell in the Williams last year as he was too tall for the car.
HustleRussell said:
Ocon missed a potential 'chance' to stand in for Russell in the Williams last year as he was too tall for the car.
Ocon is listed as being 1cm taller than Russell online, that must be a hell of a snug fit for Russell if Ocon can't fit in. Unless it's down to leg/body length proportions.L4CON said:
HustleRussell said:
Ocon missed a potential 'chance' to stand in for Russell in the Williams last year as he was too tall for the car.
Ocon is listed as being 1cm taller than Russell online, that must be a hell of a snug fit for Russell if Ocon can't fit in. Unless it's down to leg/body length proportions.
L4CON said:
HustleRussell said:
Ocon missed a potential 'chance' to stand in for Russell in the Williams last year as he was too tall for the car.
Ocon is listed as being 1cm taller than Russell online, that must be a hell of a snug fit for Russell if Ocon can't fit in. Unless it's down to leg/body length proportions.HustleRussell said:
Teams absolutely do engineer their cars to suit their current driver situation, a team with two long term drivers of average height or less certainly aren't going to build a car that would fit the tallest F1 driver on the grid on the off chance.
But they don't necessarily know who their drivers are going to be when they design the car. Anyway what I really meant is that they don't design one car for their tall driver and one for their short driver - so there no benefit in being smaller that is designed into the chassis, if your team mate is Hulkenberg, Ocon or Stroll, for example.
HustleRussell said:
Driver size will always be relevant for packaging reasons.
The regs were changed for 2019 IIRC so that there was a minimum defined weight for driver + seat which no current driver would be in excess of. This almost nullified the advantage of being a light driver. There is still a very slight advantage in that you can achieve a lower CoG if the weight is in the seat rather than on the driver. Hence Hamilton and others allowing themselves more muscle in recent years.
there was an article before the start of this season that stated Lewis was lighter than last year and had actually been working on reducing upper body mass for the exact reason of lowering CoGThe regs were changed for 2019 IIRC so that there was a minimum defined weight for driver + seat which no current driver would be in excess of. This almost nullified the advantage of being a light driver. There is still a very slight advantage in that you can achieve a lower CoG if the weight is in the seat rather than on the driver. Hence Hamilton and others allowing themselves more muscle in recent years.
Muzzer79 said:
Granted, I don't follow his career hugely closely, but I can't think of an occasion where he's been on for a podium, but lost it due to bad luck.
He's just never been in the running. He's only finished 4th three times in the 9 full seasons that he raced.
He's fast over a single lap and last weekend was a good story. If I needed a reserve or possibly a test driver, he'd be on my list and I suspect he's better than some others on the grid towards the tail end.
But he is not some great overlooked talent that just never had the opportunities or lost them due to bad luck.
Cold, hard truth is that he's just not quick enough.
I'm not sure about that.He's just never been in the running. He's only finished 4th three times in the 9 full seasons that he raced.
He's fast over a single lap and last weekend was a good story. If I needed a reserve or possibly a test driver, he'd be on my list and I suspect he's better than some others on the grid towards the tail end.
But he is not some great overlooked talent that just never had the opportunities or lost them due to bad luck.
Cold, hard truth is that he's just not quick enough.
Hulkenberg kept Ricciardo very honest as a teammate last year and certainly did a better job than Ocon has so far.
He also beat Sainz Jr when they were teammates at Renault, beat Perez one year they were teammates at Force India, beat Paul Di Resta when they were teammates... he's better than half of the grid. I would've given him the Ferrari no.2 seat over Sainz Jr, he's very consistent at racking up championship points
TobyTR said:
Muzzer79 said:
Granted, I don't follow his career hugely closely, but I can't think of an occasion where he's been on for a podium, but lost it due to bad luck.
He's just never been in the running. He's only finished 4th three times in the 9 full seasons that he raced.
He's fast over a single lap and last weekend was a good story. If I needed a reserve or possibly a test driver, he'd be on my list and I suspect he's better than some others on the grid towards the tail end.
But he is not some great overlooked talent that just never had the opportunities or lost them due to bad luck.
Cold, hard truth is that he's just not quick enough.
I'm not sure about that.He's just never been in the running. He's only finished 4th three times in the 9 full seasons that he raced.
He's fast over a single lap and last weekend was a good story. If I needed a reserve or possibly a test driver, he'd be on my list and I suspect he's better than some others on the grid towards the tail end.
But he is not some great overlooked talent that just never had the opportunities or lost them due to bad luck.
Cold, hard truth is that he's just not quick enough.
Hulkenberg kept Ricciardo very honest as a teammate last year and certainly did a better job than Ocon has so far.
He also beat Sainz Jr when they were teammates at Renault, beat Perez one year they were teammates at Force India, beat Paul Di Resta when they were teammates... he's better than half of the grid. I would've given him the Ferrari no.2 seat over Sainz Jr, he's very consistent at racking up championship points
Hulkenburg only scored two thirds of the points that Ricciardo did. Discounting races with retirements for either of them, he finished ahead of Ricciardo only 5 times in the whole season.
He is consistent, unquestionably fast over a single lap and I don't doubt that he's better than some drivers on the grid. But beating Paul Di Resta (who, let's face it, isn't and wasn't Fangio) isn't something you put in bold on your CV.
Neither is (quite narrowly) beating a 24 year old Carlos Sainz who has 3 seasons of experience.
Again - cold hard truth is that he just wasn't fast enough.
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