Hulkenberg. Wow.

Hulkenberg. Wow.

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TobyTR

911 posts

104 months

Tuesday 18th August
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
Granted, I don't follow his career hugely closely, but I can't think of an occasion where he's been on for a podium, but lost it due to bad luck.

He's just never been in the running. He's only finished 4th three times in the 9 full seasons that he raced.

He's fast over a single lap and last weekend was a good story. If I needed a reserve or possibly a test driver, he'd be on my list and I suspect he's better than some others on the grid towards the tail end.

But he is not some great overlooked talent that just never had the opportunities or lost them due to bad luck.

Cold, hard truth is that he's just not quick enough.
I'm not sure about that.

Hulkenberg kept Ricciardo very honest as a teammate last year and certainly did a better job than Ocon has so far.

He also beat Sainz Jr when they were teammates at Renault, beat Perez one year they were teammates at Force India, beat Paul Di Resta when they were teammates... he's better than half of the grid. I would've given him the Ferrari no.2 seat over Sainz Jr, he's very consistent at racking up championship points

Muzzer79

3,775 posts

145 months

Tuesday 18th August
quotequote all
TobyTR said:
Muzzer79 said:
Granted, I don't follow his career hugely closely, but I can't think of an occasion where he's been on for a podium, but lost it due to bad luck.

He's just never been in the running. He's only finished 4th three times in the 9 full seasons that he raced.

He's fast over a single lap and last weekend was a good story. If I needed a reserve or possibly a test driver, he'd be on my list and I suspect he's better than some others on the grid towards the tail end.

But he is not some great overlooked talent that just never had the opportunities or lost them due to bad luck.

Cold, hard truth is that he's just not quick enough.
I'm not sure about that.

Hulkenberg kept Ricciardo very honest as a teammate last year and certainly did a better job than Ocon has so far.

He also beat Sainz Jr when they were teammates at Renault, beat Perez one year they were teammates at Force India, beat Paul Di Resta when they were teammates... he's better than half of the grid. I would've given him the Ferrari no.2 seat over Sainz Jr, he's very consistent at racking up championship points
On what basis did he keep Ricciardo honest?

Hulkenburg only scored two thirds of the points that Ricciardo did. Discounting races with retirements for either of them, he finished ahead of Ricciardo only 5 times in the whole season.

He is consistent, unquestionably fast over a single lap and I don't doubt that he's better than some drivers on the grid. But beating Paul Di Resta (who, let's face it, isn't and wasn't Fangio) isn't something you put in bold on your CV.
Neither is (quite narrowly) beating a 24 year old Carlos Sainz who has 3 seasons of experience.

Again - cold hard truth is that he just wasn't fast enough.


HustleRussell

18,466 posts

118 months

Tuesday 18th August
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
Again - cold hard truth is that he just wasn't fast enough.
Wasn’t fast enough for what? An F1 seat? A lead driver role in a top team?

Muzzer79

3,775 posts

145 months

Tuesday 18th August
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
Muzzer79 said:
Again - cold hard truth is that he just wasn't fast enough.
Wasn’t fast enough for what? An F1 seat? A lead driver role in a top team?
He wasn't fast enough to get into a team that didn't need or want him to pay for it. This covers Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull, Renault, McLaren & Racing Point.

If he was fast enough, he would be in one of those teams.

He is certainly fast enough for Williams, Haas and Sauber, but they all need budget, so he can't get in.

He's probably fast enough for Alpha Tauri, but you need to be part of the Red Bull programme, so he can't get in there.

kiseca

8,270 posts

177 months

Tuesday 18th August
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Is there a maximum age limit for getting in the Red Bull programme?

Leithen

6,581 posts

225 months

Tuesday 18th August
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kiseca said:
Is there a maximum age limit for getting in the Red Bull programme?
6?

Ahonen

4,574 posts

237 months

Tuesday 18th August
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Muzzer79 said:
We’re not talking about GP2 or F3 or Le Mans. We’re talking about F1 and he wasn’t quick enough in it.

Plenty of drivers were quick in GP2 but couldn’t cut it in F1.

Davide Valsecchi, Giorgio Pantano & Jolyon Palmer to name but three.
I'll weigh in here because I worked with Hulk a few years ago. He's bloody brilliant, frankly, and his level of feedback is the best I've ever experienced. No question. The comparison with Checo is interesting because for my money Perez is far better than he's ever been given credit for and was always suberb at managing the tyres - but in '14 there was quite a large points gap between them.

Don't even think about comparing Hulk with the likes of Valsecchi or Palmer: they won GP2 because they were basically career GP2 drivers with multiple years behind them who won on experience. Hulk slaughtered the field at his first attempt. Oh and he slaughtered Palmer at Renault in '17 to boot.

He was permanently in the wrong place when it came to driver contracts and timings and had no money to grease any palms.

Given that he "wasn't quick enough" for F1 in your eyes it's especially notable that in 2018 he out-qualified and out-scored the new for 2021 Ferrari driver when they were together at Renault. So by your reckoning Sainz definitely isn't quick enough for F1 either. I think you'd better get on the blower to Red Bull, McLaren, Renault and Ferrari to tell them.

nickfrog

12,592 posts

175 months

Wednesday 19th August
quotequote all
Ahonen said:
Don't even think about comparing Hulk with the likes of Valsecchi or Palmer: they won GP2 because they were basically career GP2 drivers with multiple years behind them who won on experience. Hulk slaughtered the field at his first attempt. Oh and he slaughtered Palmer at Renault in '17 to boot.
Yes, I thought the comparison was very harsh, if not bordering on the nonsensical as, if anything, it demonstrates the opposite to the intended objective.

Muzzer79

3,775 posts

145 months

Wednesday 19th August
quotequote all
Ahonen said:
Muzzer79 said:
We’re not talking about GP2 or F3 or Le Mans. We’re talking about F1 and he wasn’t quick enough in it.

Plenty of drivers were quick in GP2 but couldn’t cut it in F1.

Davide Valsecchi, Giorgio Pantano & Jolyon Palmer to name but three.
I'll weigh in here because I worked with Hulk a few years ago. He's bloody brilliant, frankly, and his level of feedback is the best I've ever experienced. No question. The comparison with Checo is interesting because for my money Perez is far better than he's ever been given credit for and was always suberb at managing the tyres - but in '14 there was quite a large points gap between them.

Don't even think about comparing Hulk with the likes of Valsecchi or Palmer: they won GP2 because they were basically career GP2 drivers with multiple years behind them who won on experience. Hulk slaughtered the field at his first attempt. Oh and he slaughtered Palmer at Renault in '17 to boot.

He was permanently in the wrong place when it came to driver contracts and timings and had no money to grease any palms.

Given that he "wasn't quick enough" for F1 in your eyes it's especially notable that in 2018 he out-qualified and out-scored the new for 2021 Ferrari driver when they were together at Renault. So by your reckoning Sainz definitely isn't quick enough for F1 either. I think you'd better get on the blower to Red Bull, McLaren, Renault and Ferrari to tell them.
I used the Palmer comparison because someone said that Hulk being good in GP2 as an example of his skill in F1. Palmer is proof that winning in GP2 demonstrates nothing of the sort.

Anyway, great - If he's that good I'm glad he's secured a seat for next year. Oh, wait.......

If he was fast enough he'd still be in F1. He couldn't cut it, so he's out.

There is no consipiracy, no miscarriage of justice. It's a results based business.

HustleRussell

18,466 posts

118 months

Wednesday 19th August
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
It's a results based business.
Is it? hehe

Ahonen

4,574 posts

237 months

Wednesday 19th August
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
I used the Palmer comparison because someone said that Hulk being good in GP2 as an example of his skill in F1. Palmer is proof that winning in GP2 demonstrates nothing of the sort.

Anyway, great - If he's that good I'm glad he's secured a seat for next year. Oh, wait.......

If he was fast enough he'd still be in F1. He couldn't cut it, so he's out.

There is no consipiracy, no miscarriage of justice. It's a results based business.
I countered your argument by explaining the career GP2 driver thing and winning purely because of experience. You either didn't understand or chose not to, so you're either stupid or ignorant.

Anyway, have you phoned Ferrari yet to tell them what a huge error they've made in employing Sainz?

Muzzer79

3,775 posts

145 months

Wednesday 19th August
quotequote all
Ahonen said:
Muzzer79 said:
I used the Palmer comparison because someone said that Hulk being good in GP2 as an example of his skill in F1. Palmer is proof that winning in GP2 demonstrates nothing of the sort.

Anyway, great - If he's that good I'm glad he's secured a seat for next year. Oh, wait.......

If he was fast enough he'd still be in F1. He couldn't cut it, so he's out.

There is no consipiracy, no miscarriage of justice. It's a results based business.
I countered your argument by explaining the career GP2 driver thing and winning purely because of experience. You either didn't understand or chose not to, so you're either stupid or ignorant.

Anyway, have you phoned Ferrari yet to tell them what a huge error they've made in employing Sainz?
I don't need to. Unlike you, I'm not sat in a corner crying over an F1 driver getting the boot because he couldn't cut it.

TwentyFive

221 posts

24 months

Wednesday 19th August
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
If he was fast enough he'd still be in F1. He couldn't cut it, so he's out.

There is no consipiracy, no miscarriage of justice. It's a results based business.
I am calling censored on that one I am afraid. Speed is never the sole reason drivers are in F1.

If that was the case then we wouldn't all bemoan pay drivers taking up seats and I highly doubt we would see Latifi on the grid this year would we?

There are multiple factors at play as to why Hulk was out of a seat and I think speed was probably bottom of that list. You might well find that aspects such as bringing sponsorship, wage demands, a highly expensive teammate in Ricciardo already on the books along with Hulks age and his nationality came above this supposed lack of speed when Renault opted for Ocon instead.

You don't qualify 3rd in an unfamiliar car if you aren't fast enough to be in modern F1.

Muzzer79

3,775 posts

145 months

Wednesday 19th August
quotequote all
TwentyFive said:
Speed is never the sole reason drivers are in F1.
I didn't say it was.

TwentyFive said:
If that was the case then we wouldn't all bemoan pay drivers taking up seats and I highly doubt we would see Latifi on the grid this year would we?
As per my earlier post, a third of the grid need budget in order to take a driver. Nico is certainly fast enough to take one of those seats, but he doesn't have the budget, therefore they're closed to him. His only option therefore is to take a seat due to his speed, in a higher-up team.

TwentyFive said:
There are multiple factors at play as to why Hulk was out of a seat and I think speed was probably bottom of that list. You might well find that aspects such as bringing sponsorship, wage demands, a highly expensive teammate in Ricciardo already on the books along with Hulks age and his nationality came above this supposed lack of speed when Renault opted for Ocon instead.
In a non-budget-required team, all those aspects go to one side if you're fast enough.

Wage demands? If you're fast enough, you'll be paid what you want.
Age? Doesn't matter if you're fast enough

If Renault couldn't afford him or didn't want a German, for example, another higher-up team would have taken Nico.......If he was fast enoughbanghead

People seem to think I'm accusing Nico of being slow. He's most certainly not - He's a fine, consistent driver. But, he's not fast enough to command a seat at a top team and hasn't done enough with the opportunities he's had over the last 9 years.


Edited by Muzzer79 on Wednesday 19th August 14:20

TwentyFive

221 posts

24 months

Wednesday 19th August
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
I didn't say it was
I was highlighting that speed is not the only factor as your post suggested that not being fast enough on its own was the reason he was dropped.

Muzzer79 said:
In a non-budget-required team, all those aspects go to one side if you're fast enough.
A non budget required team? Isn't that the dream. All teams have a budget set at board level, that applies whether you are at Mercedes or Williams. Speed alone is not enough to warrant getting a seat anymore, other factors are in play too whether we like it or not.

Muzzer79 said:
Wage demands? If you're fast enough, you'll be paid what you want.
See above. If your wage demands are above the budget then you wont be paid anything as they will just choose someone else. Even Hamilton has a price point where Mercedes would just walk away despite his success. Teams wouldn't last too long if they just continually operated beyond their means. It is well documented that Hulkenberg failed to get a seat with another team because his wage demands were higher than interested teams could justify. That's not a speed issue, that's a business decision.

Muzzer79 said:
Age? Doesn't matter if you're fast enough
Ocon is a cheaper and younger prospect of comparable speed to Hulk and that potentially allows Renault a longer return on a far smaller investment. I agree that age and speed are not directly linked but for me age would be a consideration when looking to build a team of people for the longer term.

Muzzer79 said:
If Renault couldn't afford him or didn't want a German, for example, another higher-up team would have taken Nico.......If he was fast enoughbanghead
All the top seats were taken by that time and I don't think he would be deserving of those seats anyway based on his current F1 record. He is however fast enough for an F1 seat. You suggested he was out of F1 because he wasn't fast enough but there is a difference between being fast enough for F1 and being fast enough to command a top seat.

Catatafish

1,070 posts

103 months

Wednesday 19th August
quotequote all
Ross Braun has stated that Hulkenberg was under consideration for a Merc seat. You can't get much more of an expert endorsement IMO. Hence, he is widely considered to have underacheived in F1.

So many aspects of a driver's career come down to chance. Team changes are a pure gamble with no guarantee of anything. A team might be in ascendance due to their quality like merc, or some innovation might elevate another team to the top. This can happen at any time, and never predicted beforehand, even by the most *powerful* Ph armchair tts with crystal balls that only work after the events have unfurled.

For example, Bottas is only in Merc because Rosberg quit, an unexpected event not predicted by any Ph armchair goon. His results are down to the fact that he can finish races reliably in the fastest car. Suddenly people notice him and sing his praise. He isn't driving with more skill, he's simply now in a faster car. Imagine what would have happened if he'd stayed at Williams...

nickfrog

12,592 posts

175 months

Wednesday 19th August
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
I used the Palmer comparison because someone said that Hulk being good in GP2 as an example of his skill in F1. Palmer is proof that winning in GP2 demonstrates nothing of the sort.
Surely you know that it took Palmer 4 seasons to win the title as opposed to 1 for Hulkenberg.

TobyTR

911 posts

104 months

Thursday 27th August
quotequote all
Ahonen said:
I'll weigh in here because I worked with Hulk a few years ago. He's bloody brilliant, frankly, and his level of feedback is the best I've ever experienced. No question. The comparison with Checo is interesting because for my money Perez is far better than he's ever been given credit for and was always suberb at managing the tyres - but in '14 there was quite a large points gap between them.

Don't even think about comparing Hulk with the likes of Valsecchi or Palmer: they won GP2 because they were basically career GP2 drivers with multiple years behind them who won on experience. Hulk slaughtered the field at his first attempt. Oh and he slaughtered Palmer at Renault in '17 to boot.

He was permanently in the wrong place when it came to driver contracts and timings and had no money to grease any palms.

Given that he "wasn't quick enough" for F1 in your eyes it's especially notable that in 2018 he out-qualified and out-scored the new for 2021 Ferrari driver when they were together at Renault. So by your reckoning Sainz definitely isn't quick enough for F1 either. I think you'd better get on the blower to Red Bull, McLaren, Renault and Ferrari to tell them.
Nail on the head. That's very cool you worked with him smile

at the end of the day, you can't be not fast enough for f1 if you jump into an unfamiliar car and beat your teammate in qualifying having not driven an F1 car for months. If Hulkenberg isn't fast enough for F1, then what does that say about Stroll and Sainz Jr......

kiseca

8,270 posts

177 months

Thursday 27th August
quotequote all
TobyTR said:
Nail on the head. That's very cool you worked with him smile

at the end of the day, you can't be not fast enough for f1 if you jump into an unfamiliar car and beat your teammate in qualifying having not driven an F1 car for months. If Hulkenberg isn't fast enough for F1, then what does that say about Stroll and Sainz Jr......
That they make the cars faster by adding money rather than talent? I didn't agree with Muzzer79 for a long time but I can finally see what he's getting at. Hulk is fast enough to be in F1, but he's not fast enough for what he costs. He can't buy a seat because he doesn't bring enough sponsorship, and there are no paying seats available because there are faster drivers available for them.


Edited by kiseca on Thursday 27th August 08:41

Fundoreen

1,756 posts

41 months

Thursday 27th August
quotequote all
Many of the seats are not worth it now but come the new regs this may not be the case. Hulk should jump onboard somewhere next season to be in with a good chance the following year for good results.
As indicated in the GP2 comparison ,he excelled in more equal machinery.
Even red bull seem to be putting out duff cars probably due to the feedback from their exciting young driver program graduates.