Honda to leave F1
Discussion
jsf said:
Deesee said:
Perhaps, he’s in thick, direct voice to the CEO that too, he’s part of the senior ‘team’..
Having a direct voice to business leaders and CEO's means bugger all at company control level.Fundoreen said:
This idea honda would let red bull have their engine after they left seemed far fetched.
But they seem to want to make a clean break and invest in non ICE for the future.
However, they still make millions of engines for road cars/bikes so why hand over the secret sauce?
Red Bull seem to think they can twist the FIA and F1 to freeze the engines from 2022 onward.
This way they could run Hondas last version till the end of the formula without the other 3 ices moving ahead into the distance.
So this just seems like receiving parts from the supplier and some hired honda folk putting them together in milton keynes.
Maybe honda are fed up with the development race but wont admit it.
Still puts honda in the firing line for blame when max blows a fuse but maybe £60m per year for an ICE badged up as a mexicari
is not so bad.
Honda will let them run and re-produce the PU under a different badge perhaps. But no one other than Honda is going to fully understand the current PU design in time to evolve it in a meaningful way. Honda are world class in terms of ICE design and testing in the mainstream world... They have huge knowledge, huge value and they aren't going to pass any of it on beyond their own absolute control.But they seem to want to make a clean break and invest in non ICE for the future.
However, they still make millions of engines for road cars/bikes so why hand over the secret sauce?
Red Bull seem to think they can twist the FIA and F1 to freeze the engines from 2022 onward.
This way they could run Hondas last version till the end of the formula without the other 3 ices moving ahead into the distance.
So this just seems like receiving parts from the supplier and some hired honda folk putting them together in milton keynes.
Maybe honda are fed up with the development race but wont admit it.
Still puts honda in the firing line for blame when max blows a fuse but maybe £60m per year for an ICE badged up as a mexicari
is not so bad.
RB can buy the facility but all they'll have is the PU in it's current state of evolution and one hell of a job to reverse engineer it to the point of understanding the nuances of it's design to even start to look at ways to enhance it. No wonder they want to push for a PU freeze! I'm pretty sure Ferrari actually don't want their 'behind the times' PU development program putting on hold for years though
(I'm guessing Ferrari might just win that argument).TheDeuce said:
Fundoreen said:
This idea honda would let red bull have their engine after they left seemed far fetched.
But they seem to want to make a clean break and invest in non ICE for the future.
However, they still make millions of engines for road cars/bikes so why hand over the secret sauce?
Red Bull seem to think they can twist the FIA and F1 to freeze the engines from 2022 onward.
This way they could run Hondas last version till the end of the formula without the other 3 ices moving ahead into the distance.
So this just seems like receiving parts from the supplier and some hired honda folk putting them together in milton keynes.
Maybe honda are fed up with the development race but wont admit it.
Still puts honda in the firing line for blame when max blows a fuse but maybe £60m per year for an ICE badged up as a mexicari
is not so bad.
Honda will let them run and re-produce the PU under a different badge perhaps. But no one other than Honda is going to fully understand the current PU design in time to evolve it in a meaningful way. Honda are world class in terms of ICE design and testing in the mainstream world... They have huge knowledge, huge value and they aren't going to pass any of it on beyond their own absolute control.But they seem to want to make a clean break and invest in non ICE for the future.
However, they still make millions of engines for road cars/bikes so why hand over the secret sauce?
Red Bull seem to think they can twist the FIA and F1 to freeze the engines from 2022 onward.
This way they could run Hondas last version till the end of the formula without the other 3 ices moving ahead into the distance.
So this just seems like receiving parts from the supplier and some hired honda folk putting them together in milton keynes.
Maybe honda are fed up with the development race but wont admit it.
Still puts honda in the firing line for blame when max blows a fuse but maybe £60m per year for an ICE badged up as a mexicari
is not so bad.
RB can buy the facility but all they'll have is the PU in it's current state of evolution and one hell of a job to reverse engineer it to the point of understanding the nuances of it's design to even start to look at ways to enhance it. No wonder they want to push for a PU freeze! I'm pretty sure Ferrari actually don't want their 'behind the times' PU development program putting on hold for years though
(I'm guessing Ferrari might just win that argument).TheDeuce said:
Honda will let them run and re-produce the PU under a different badge perhaps. But no one other than Honda is going to fully understand the current PU design in time to evolve it in a meaningful way. Honda are world class in terms of ICE design and testing in the mainstream world... They have huge knowledge, huge value and they aren't going to pass any of it on beyond their own absolute control.
RB can buy the facility but all they'll have is the PU in it's current state of evolution and one hell of a job to reverse engineer it to the point of understanding the nuances of it's design to even start to look at ways to enhance it. No wonder they want to push for a PU freeze! I'm pretty sure Ferrari actually don't want their 'behind the times' PU development program putting on hold for years though (I'm guessing Ferrari might just win that argument).
And if I'm reading Wiki correctly there's quite a bit of evolution that needs to happen on the engine between the 2021 specs and 2022 specs. It's not just copy and evolve the current engine. The 2022 engines are quite different, unless I'm mistaken.RB can buy the facility but all they'll have is the PU in it's current state of evolution and one hell of a job to reverse engineer it to the point of understanding the nuances of it's design to even start to look at ways to enhance it. No wonder they want to push for a PU freeze! I'm pretty sure Ferrari actually don't want their 'behind the times' PU development program putting on hold for years though
(I'm guessing Ferrari might just win that argument).So the current IP would be a starting point but would need an experienced team who know the specs inside out to develop their first racing engine from the last Honda unit.
Am I missing some important factor about the engine specs over the next 5 - 6 years?
BrettMRC said:
What are the chances that Honda sell/allow the use of the engine and IP, AND the R&D/build staff under contract until 2026, at which point Barwn's push for them to return under the new regs would slot in nicely...
No chance. Out of decency they may do the bare minimum to not leave RB with no alternative to Renault but Honda won't support the project from an R&d or tech (secrets) point of view remotely or via a third party. Moving forwards, if they're not doing all of it, they won't be contributing anything.kiseca said:
And if I'm reading Wiki correctly there's quite a bit of evolution that needs to happen on the engine between the 2021 specs and 2022 specs. It's not just copy and evolve the current engine. The 2022 engines are quite different, unless I'm mistaken.
So the current IP would be a starting point but would need an experienced team who know the specs inside out to develop their first racing engine from the last Honda unit.
Am I missing some important factor about the engine specs over the next 5 - 6 years?
Which bit are you reading - can you link to it?So the current IP would be a starting point but would need an experienced team who know the specs inside out to develop their first racing engine from the last Honda unit.
Am I missing some important factor about the engine specs over the next 5 - 6 years?
There have been various proposals made to alter the hybrid (electrical) side to reduce costs but none confirmed yet so far as I'm aware. The ICE specs (still the most complex element) remain unchanged.
Regards evolution the current PU and the knowledge that the UK operation staff have would be potentially slightly useful as a starting point if RB were to bring in a new company to operate the facility. But realistically it's a huge learning curve and they'd be years behind the cutting edge. The actual R&D development and refinement was all done in Japan - the UK facility obviously understand enough to assemble and maintain/problem solve the units but not the whole picture.
mike-v2tmf said:
There would be a whole division dedicated to the design/development of Honda's F1 engine back in Japan , I doubt Red Bull could afford to buy/lease the staff/machinery needed to carry on with it , that said its interesting watching this conundrum unfold.
Ford Motor Company market capitalisation in May 2020 - $19.2 billionRed Bull is privately owned but valued by Forbes at the end of 2019 at $20 billion.
Ferrari is 'only' worth $30 billion.
Bottom line - if they want to do it, they can afford it.
Muzzer79 said:
mike-v2tmf said:
There would be a whole division dedicated to the design/development of Honda's F1 engine back in Japan , I doubt Red Bull could afford to buy/lease the staff/machinery needed to carry on with it , that said its interesting watching this conundrum unfold.
Ford Motor Company market capitalisation in May 2020 - $19.2 billionRed Bull is privately owned but valued by Forbes at the end of 2019 at $20 billion.
Ferrari is 'only' worth $30 billion.
Bottom line - if they want to do it, they can afford it.
TheDeuce said:
kiseca said:
And if I'm reading Wiki correctly there's quite a bit of evolution that needs to happen on the engine between the 2021 specs and 2022 specs. It's not just copy and evolve the current engine. The 2022 engines are quite different, unless I'm mistaken.
So the current IP would be a starting point but would need an experienced team who know the specs inside out to develop their first racing engine from the last Honda unit.
Am I missing some important factor about the engine specs over the next 5 - 6 years?
Which bit are you reading - can you link to it?So the current IP would be a starting point but would need an experienced team who know the specs inside out to develop their first racing engine from the last Honda unit.
Am I missing some important factor about the engine specs over the next 5 - 6 years?
There have been various proposals made to alter the hybrid (electrical) side to reduce costs but none confirmed yet so far as I'm aware. The ICE specs (still the most complex element) remain unchanged.
Regards evolution the current PU and the knowledge that the UK operation staff have would be potentially slightly useful as a starting point if RB were to bring in a new company to operate the facility. But realistically it's a huge learning curve and they'd be years behind the cutting edge. The actual R&D development and refinement was all done in Japan - the UK facility obviously understand enough to assemble and maintain/problem solve the units but not the whole picture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_engines
The "Power Units" section. I thought the 2021 changes had been postponed a year and that included significant engine changes, hence my surprise that so many are placing value on the Honda IP. So either things have moved on since I last paid attention to the specs and I'm out of date, or it was never as concrete as I thought in the first place, or the Honda IP won't be worth that much in 2022.
The Wiki article comes to no conclusions, just confirms that there were going to be significant engine changes in 2022 but there still seem to be other proposals.
kiseca said:
TheDeuce said:
kiseca said:
And if I'm reading Wiki correctly there's quite a bit of evolution that needs to happen on the engine between the 2021 specs and 2022 specs. It's not just copy and evolve the current engine. The 2022 engines are quite different, unless I'm mistaken.
So the current IP would be a starting point but would need an experienced team who know the specs inside out to develop their first racing engine from the last Honda unit.
Am I missing some important factor about the engine specs over the next 5 - 6 years?
Which bit are you reading - can you link to it?So the current IP would be a starting point but would need an experienced team who know the specs inside out to develop their first racing engine from the last Honda unit.
Am I missing some important factor about the engine specs over the next 5 - 6 years?
There have been various proposals made to alter the hybrid (electrical) side to reduce costs but none confirmed yet so far as I'm aware. The ICE specs (still the most complex element) remain unchanged.
Regards evolution the current PU and the knowledge that the UK operation staff have would be potentially slightly useful as a starting point if RB were to bring in a new company to operate the facility. But realistically it's a huge learning curve and they'd be years behind the cutting edge. The actual R&D development and refinement was all done in Japan - the UK facility obviously understand enough to assemble and maintain/problem solve the units but not the whole picture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_engines
The "Power Units" section. I thought the 2021 changes had been postponed a year and that included significant engine changes, hence my surprise that so many are placing value on the Honda IP. So either things have moved on since I last paid attention to the specs and I'm out of date, or it was never as concrete as I thought in the first place, or the Honda IP won't be worth that much in 2022.
The Wiki article comes to no conclusions, just confirms that there were going to be significant engine changes in 2022 but there still seem to be other proposals.
Can't really see Renault, Ferrari or Mercedes conceding to help them in this way, but the decision isn't completely in their hands.
Muzzer79 said:
Red Bull (Marko) has said that if they were to take on the Honda IP, it would be conditional on an engine spec freeze from 2022 - in order to give them a chance.
Can't really see Renault, Ferrari or Mercedes conceding to help them in this way, but the decision isn't completely in their hands.
I imagine it'll be pitched as cost saving which may be more acceptable to the other teams? Can't really see Renault, Ferrari or Mercedes conceding to help them in this way, but the decision isn't completely in their hands.
After this many years of the ICE regs, they've got to be VERY deep in to the diminishing returns area where the costs for tiny improvements are enormous...
Muzzer79 said:
kiseca said:
TheDeuce said:
kiseca said:
And if I'm reading Wiki correctly there's quite a bit of evolution that needs to happen on the engine between the 2021 specs and 2022 specs. It's not just copy and evolve the current engine. The 2022 engines are quite different, unless I'm mistaken.
So the current IP would be a starting point but would need an experienced team who know the specs inside out to develop their first racing engine from the last Honda unit.
Am I missing some important factor about the engine specs over the next 5 - 6 years?
Which bit are you reading - can you link to it?So the current IP would be a starting point but would need an experienced team who know the specs inside out to develop their first racing engine from the last Honda unit.
Am I missing some important factor about the engine specs over the next 5 - 6 years?
There have been various proposals made to alter the hybrid (electrical) side to reduce costs but none confirmed yet so far as I'm aware. The ICE specs (still the most complex element) remain unchanged.
Regards evolution the current PU and the knowledge that the UK operation staff have would be potentially slightly useful as a starting point if RB were to bring in a new company to operate the facility. But realistically it's a huge learning curve and they'd be years behind the cutting edge. The actual R&D development and refinement was all done in Japan - the UK facility obviously understand enough to assemble and maintain/problem solve the units but not the whole picture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_engines
The "Power Units" section. I thought the 2021 changes had been postponed a year and that included significant engine changes, hence my surprise that so many are placing value on the Honda IP. So either things have moved on since I last paid attention to the specs and I'm out of date, or it was never as concrete as I thought in the first place, or the Honda IP won't be worth that much in 2022.
The Wiki article comes to no conclusions, just confirms that there were going to be significant engine changes in 2022 but there still seem to be other proposals.
Can't really see Renault, Ferrari or Mercedes conceding to help them in this way, but the decision isn't completely in their hands.
i thought the '21 changes were moving to '22 and in basic form are an evolution of the current MGU-K and ICE with removal of the MGU-H.
Given a lot of Honda's failures have been MGU-H related, and Red Bull's preference I believe the ICE and MGU-K are at least comparable to the Renault unit they had previously. We all saw Brazil last year where the Honda beat the Merc to the line in a straight drag race so its obviously not a million miles away.
RBR must believe the Honda PU without MGU-H gives them some advantage or they simply wouldn't be taking this stance.
Given a lot of Honda's failures have been MGU-H related, and Red Bull's preference I believe the ICE and MGU-K are at least comparable to the Renault unit they had previously. We all saw Brazil last year where the Honda beat the Merc to the line in a straight drag race so its obviously not a million miles away.
RBR must believe the Honda PU without MGU-H gives them some advantage or they simply wouldn't be taking this stance.
Except they're not getting rid of MGU-H in 2022. Those proposals were scrapped when it became clear that no new manufacturers were going to enter, so the rules are now essentially frozen until 2025, with ever-diminishing development allowed.
Honda have already said they're going to bring forward their 2022 PU to 2021 in order to give RBR the best chance next year. If they do end up taking over the Honda IP, that is the PU they'll take through until 2025.
Honda have already said they're going to bring forward their 2022 PU to 2021 in order to give RBR the best chance next year. If they do end up taking over the Honda IP, that is the PU they'll take through until 2025.
Let the games begin...
Red Bull threaten to quit F1, Ferrari block engine freeze
https://www.planetf1.com/news/red-bull-f1-quit-thr...
Red Bull threaten to quit F1, Ferrari block engine freeze
https://www.planetf1.com/news/red-bull-f1-quit-thr...
This is a brilliant thread.
It seems likely that Red Bull have the cash to get the engine (if Honda are willing) and it would surely be a win win situation for Honda with loadsa money that they wouldn't get otherwise.
F1 definitely needs another engine manufacturer (or it will soon be a one make series + Ferrari!!).
I just wish that they would really dumb down the aero so we can get back to closer racing. How about M23 front wings and no winglets etc.
It seems likely that Red Bull have the cash to get the engine (if Honda are willing) and it would surely be a win win situation for Honda with loadsa money that they wouldn't get otherwise.
F1 definitely needs another engine manufacturer (or it will soon be a one make series + Ferrari!!).
I just wish that they would really dumb down the aero so we can get back to closer racing. How about M23 front wings and no winglets etc.
Muzzer79 said:
kiseca said:
TheDeuce said:
kiseca said:
And if I'm reading Wiki correctly there's quite a bit of evolution that needs to happen on the engine between the 2021 specs and 2022 specs. It's not just copy and evolve the current engine. The 2022 engines are quite different, unless I'm mistaken.
So the current IP would be a starting point but would need an experienced team who know the specs inside out to develop their first racing engine from the last Honda unit.
Am I missing some important factor about the engine specs over the next 5 - 6 years?
Which bit are you reading - can you link to it?So the current IP would be a starting point but would need an experienced team who know the specs inside out to develop their first racing engine from the last Honda unit.
Am I missing some important factor about the engine specs over the next 5 - 6 years?
There have been various proposals made to alter the hybrid (electrical) side to reduce costs but none confirmed yet so far as I'm aware. The ICE specs (still the most complex element) remain unchanged.
Regards evolution the current PU and the knowledge that the UK operation staff have would be potentially slightly useful as a starting point if RB were to bring in a new company to operate the facility. But realistically it's a huge learning curve and they'd be years behind the cutting edge. The actual R&D development and refinement was all done in Japan - the UK facility obviously understand enough to assemble and maintain/problem solve the units but not the whole picture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_engines
The "Power Units" section. I thought the 2021 changes had been postponed a year and that included significant engine changes, hence my surprise that so many are placing value on the Honda IP. So either things have moved on since I last paid attention to the specs and I'm out of date, or it was never as concrete as I thought in the first place, or the Honda IP won't be worth that much in 2022.
The Wiki article comes to no conclusions, just confirms that there were going to be significant engine changes in 2022 but there still seem to be other proposals.
Can't really see Renault, Ferrari or Mercedes conceding to help them in this way, but the decision isn't completely in their hands.
Farts chance in a tornado of getting a freeze imo... But I can see why that is what they 'want'.
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