Honda to leave F1

Honda to leave F1

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Discussion

jsf

19,250 posts

194 months

Thursday 15th October
quotequote all
Deesee said:
Perhaps, he’s in thick, direct voice to the CEO that too, he’s part of the senior ‘team’..
Having a direct voice to business leaders and CEO's means bugger all at company control level.

Stan the Bat

5,831 posts

170 months

Thursday 15th October
quotequote all
faa77 said:
Muzzer79 said:
We're going O/T here but it seems that people think that Racing Point/Aston Martin are Lawrence Stroll's folly - a train set to allow his son to race.

Of course, having a team gives him the luxury of choosing Lance as a driver but that's where it ends.

RP have some serious people with serious money involved. They've shown they're serious by spending a lot of money on a multiple world champion

If they started hampering their own progress to favour Lance, it would come crashing down pretty quickly.
100%

Choosing Stroll over Perez is a completely different scenario to hiring Vettel and then not letting him beat Stroll.

Lawrence Stroll just wants his son in a car. It doesn't matter if a 4x WDC is going to wipe the floor with him, as that wouldn't be surprising.
I don't think he's going to 'wipe the floor' with him, might just edge it.

Gazzab

18,189 posts

240 months

Thursday 15th October
quotequote all
How many mistakes has stroll made? Is he hot headed and suffering with red mist?
Suspect he will beat Vettel unless Vettel can sort himself out.

Fundoreen

1,756 posts

41 months

Thursday 15th October
quotequote all
This idea honda would let red bull have their engine after they left seemed far fetched.
But they seem to want to make a clean break and invest in non ICE for the future.
However, they still make millions of engines for road cars/bikes so why hand over the secret sauce?
Red Bull seem to think they can twist the FIA and F1 to freeze the engines from 2022 onward.
This way they could run Hondas last version till the end of the formula without the other 3 ices moving ahead into the distance.
So this just seems like receiving parts from the supplier and some hired honda folk putting them together in milton keynes.
Maybe honda are fed up with the development race but wont admit it.
Still puts honda in the firing line for blame when max blows a fuse but maybe £60m per year for an ICE badged up as a mexicari
is not so bad.



Stan the Bat

5,831 posts

170 months

Thursday 15th October
quotequote all
Gazzab said:
How many mistakes has stroll made? Is he hot headed and suffering with red mist?
Suspect he will beat Vettel unless Vettel can sort himself out.
As I said earlier if he beats SV then that will really tarnish his( SV's) legacy.

HighwayStar

3,037 posts

102 months

Thursday 15th October
quotequote all
DanielSan said:
Deesee said:
Seb has invested some funds in Aston Martin.. he’s part of the consortium..
Except no one knows if he has invested any personal cash or if his shares are part of the deal to join the team. He's not involved with Stroll's consortium who bought the team either way
It’s his person cash, touched on it in Beyond The Grid.

Mr Dendrite

1,674 posts

168 months

Thursday 15th October
quotequote all
thegreenhell said:
Mr Dendrite said:
I thought TAG were a purpose built engine, by Porsche?
It was, back in the 80s, but also TAG-Heuer sponsored the Renault engine in the Red Bull from 2016-18.
thumbup

Deesee

4,532 posts

41 months

Thursday 15th October
quotequote all
jsf said:
Deesee said:
Perhaps, he’s in thick, direct voice to the CEO that too, he’s part of the senior ‘team’..
Having a direct voice to business leaders and CEO's means bugger all at company control level.
The CEO has control over the board.. and the debt behind it.. has a personal 20% shareholding and controls over 50% of it.


TheDeuce

7,268 posts

24 months

Thursday 15th October
quotequote all
Fundoreen said:
This idea honda would let red bull have their engine after they left seemed far fetched.
But they seem to want to make a clean break and invest in non ICE for the future.
However, they still make millions of engines for road cars/bikes so why hand over the secret sauce?
Red Bull seem to think they can twist the FIA and F1 to freeze the engines from 2022 onward.
This way they could run Hondas last version till the end of the formula without the other 3 ices moving ahead into the distance.
So this just seems like receiving parts from the supplier and some hired honda folk putting them together in milton keynes.
Maybe honda are fed up with the development race but wont admit it.
Still puts honda in the firing line for blame when max blows a fuse but maybe £60m per year for an ICE badged up as a mexicari
is not so bad.
Honda will let them run and re-produce the PU under a different badge perhaps. But no one other than Honda is going to fully understand the current PU design in time to evolve it in a meaningful way. Honda are world class in terms of ICE design and testing in the mainstream world... They have huge knowledge, huge value and they aren't going to pass any of it on beyond their own absolute control.

RB can buy the facility but all they'll have is the PU in it's current state of evolution and one hell of a job to reverse engineer it to the point of understanding the nuances of it's design to even start to look at ways to enhance it. No wonder they want to push for a PU freeze! I'm pretty sure Ferrari actually don't want their 'behind the times' PU development program putting on hold for years though smile (I'm guessing Ferrari might just win that argument).

PD9

1,883 posts

143 months

Thursday 15th October
quotequote all
Can we take the Stroll / AM stuff to another thread please...

Let’s keep this to a Honda related discussion.

BrettMRC

1,768 posts

118 months

Friday 16th October
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Fundoreen said:
This idea honda would let red bull have their engine after they left seemed far fetched.
But they seem to want to make a clean break and invest in non ICE for the future.
However, they still make millions of engines for road cars/bikes so why hand over the secret sauce?
Red Bull seem to think they can twist the FIA and F1 to freeze the engines from 2022 onward.
This way they could run Hondas last version till the end of the formula without the other 3 ices moving ahead into the distance.
So this just seems like receiving parts from the supplier and some hired honda folk putting them together in milton keynes.
Maybe honda are fed up with the development race but wont admit it.
Still puts honda in the firing line for blame when max blows a fuse but maybe £60m per year for an ICE badged up as a mexicari
is not so bad.
Honda will let them run and re-produce the PU under a different badge perhaps. But no one other than Honda is going to fully understand the current PU design in time to evolve it in a meaningful way. Honda are world class in terms of ICE design and testing in the mainstream world... They have huge knowledge, huge value and they aren't going to pass any of it on beyond their own absolute control.

RB can buy the facility but all they'll have is the PU in it's current state of evolution and one hell of a job to reverse engineer it to the point of understanding the nuances of it's design to even start to look at ways to enhance it. No wonder they want to push for a PU freeze! I'm pretty sure Ferrari actually don't want their 'behind the times' PU development program putting on hold for years though smile (I'm guessing Ferrari might just win that argument).
What are the chances that Honda sell/allow the use of the engine and IP, AND the R&D/build staff under contract until 2026, at which point Barwn's push for them to return under the new regs would slot in nicely...

kiseca

8,270 posts

177 months

Friday 16th October
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Honda will let them run and re-produce the PU under a different badge perhaps. But no one other than Honda is going to fully understand the current PU design in time to evolve it in a meaningful way. Honda are world class in terms of ICE design and testing in the mainstream world... They have huge knowledge, huge value and they aren't going to pass any of it on beyond their own absolute control.

RB can buy the facility but all they'll have is the PU in it's current state of evolution and one hell of a job to reverse engineer it to the point of understanding the nuances of it's design to even start to look at ways to enhance it. No wonder they want to push for a PU freeze! I'm pretty sure Ferrari actually don't want their 'behind the times' PU development program putting on hold for years though smile (I'm guessing Ferrari might just win that argument).
And if I'm reading Wiki correctly there's quite a bit of evolution that needs to happen on the engine between the 2021 specs and 2022 specs. It's not just copy and evolve the current engine. The 2022 engines are quite different, unless I'm mistaken.

So the current IP would be a starting point but would need an experienced team who know the specs inside out to develop their first racing engine from the last Honda unit.

Am I missing some important factor about the engine specs over the next 5 - 6 years?

TheDeuce

7,268 posts

24 months

Friday 16th October
quotequote all
BrettMRC said:
What are the chances that Honda sell/allow the use of the engine and IP, AND the R&D/build staff under contract until 2026, at which point Barwn's push for them to return under the new regs would slot in nicely...
No chance. Out of decency they may do the bare minimum to not leave RB with no alternative to Renault but Honda won't support the project from an R&d or tech (secrets) point of view remotely or via a third party. Moving forwards, if they're not doing all of it, they won't be contributing anything.

TheDeuce

7,268 posts

24 months

Friday 16th October
quotequote all
kiseca said:
And if I'm reading Wiki correctly there's quite a bit of evolution that needs to happen on the engine between the 2021 specs and 2022 specs. It's not just copy and evolve the current engine. The 2022 engines are quite different, unless I'm mistaken.

So the current IP would be a starting point but would need an experienced team who know the specs inside out to develop their first racing engine from the last Honda unit.

Am I missing some important factor about the engine specs over the next 5 - 6 years?
Which bit are you reading - can you link to it?

There have been various proposals made to alter the hybrid (electrical) side to reduce costs but none confirmed yet so far as I'm aware. The ICE specs (still the most complex element) remain unchanged.

Regards evolution the current PU and the knowledge that the UK operation staff have would be potentially slightly useful as a starting point if RB were to bring in a new company to operate the facility. But realistically it's a huge learning curve and they'd be years behind the cutting edge. The actual R&D development and refinement was all done in Japan - the UK facility obviously understand enough to assemble and maintain/problem solve the units but not the whole picture.


mike-v2tmf

287 posts

37 months

Friday 16th October
quotequote all
There would be a whole division dedicated to the design/development of Honda's F1 engine back in Japan , I doubt Red Bull could afford to buy/lease the staff/machinery needed to carry on with it , that said its interesting watching this conundrum unfold.

Muzzer79

3,775 posts

145 months

Friday 16th October
quotequote all
mike-v2tmf said:
There would be a whole division dedicated to the design/development of Honda's F1 engine back in Japan , I doubt Red Bull could afford to buy/lease the staff/machinery needed to carry on with it , that said its interesting watching this conundrum unfold.
Ford Motor Company market capitalisation in May 2020 - $19.2 billion

Red Bull is privately owned but valued by Forbes at the end of 2019 at $20 billion.

Ferrari is 'only' worth $30 billion.

Bottom line - if they want to do it, they can afford it.

mike-v2tmf

287 posts

37 months

Friday 16th October
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
mike-v2tmf said:
There would be a whole division dedicated to the design/development of Honda's F1 engine back in Japan , I doubt Red Bull could afford to buy/lease the staff/machinery needed to carry on with it , that said its interesting watching this conundrum unfold.
Ford Motor Company market capitalisation in May 2020 - $19.2 billion

Red Bull is privately owned but valued by Forbes at the end of 2019 at $20 billion.

Ferrari is 'only' worth $30 billion.

Bottom line - if they want to do it, they can afford it.
Wow! thats a LOT of fizzy drinks , I stand corrected

kiseca

8,270 posts

177 months

Friday 16th October
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
kiseca said:
And if I'm reading Wiki correctly there's quite a bit of evolution that needs to happen on the engine between the 2021 specs and 2022 specs. It's not just copy and evolve the current engine. The 2022 engines are quite different, unless I'm mistaken.

So the current IP would be a starting point but would need an experienced team who know the specs inside out to develop their first racing engine from the last Honda unit.

Am I missing some important factor about the engine specs over the next 5 - 6 years?
Which bit are you reading - can you link to it?

There have been various proposals made to alter the hybrid (electrical) side to reduce costs but none confirmed yet so far as I'm aware. The ICE specs (still the most complex element) remain unchanged.

Regards evolution the current PU and the knowledge that the UK operation staff have would be potentially slightly useful as a starting point if RB were to bring in a new company to operate the facility. But realistically it's a huge learning curve and they'd be years behind the cutting edge. The actual R&D development and refinement was all done in Japan - the UK facility obviously understand enough to assemble and maintain/problem solve the units but not the whole picture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Formula_One_World_Championship

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_engines

The "Power Units" section. I thought the 2021 changes had been postponed a year and that included significant engine changes, hence my surprise that so many are placing value on the Honda IP. So either things have moved on since I last paid attention to the specs and I'm out of date, or it was never as concrete as I thought in the first place, or the Honda IP won't be worth that much in 2022.

The Wiki article comes to no conclusions, just confirms that there were going to be significant engine changes in 2022 but there still seem to be other proposals.

Muzzer79

3,775 posts

145 months

Friday 16th October
quotequote all
kiseca said:
TheDeuce said:
kiseca said:
And if I'm reading Wiki correctly there's quite a bit of evolution that needs to happen on the engine between the 2021 specs and 2022 specs. It's not just copy and evolve the current engine. The 2022 engines are quite different, unless I'm mistaken.

So the current IP would be a starting point but would need an experienced team who know the specs inside out to develop their first racing engine from the last Honda unit.

Am I missing some important factor about the engine specs over the next 5 - 6 years?
Which bit are you reading - can you link to it?

There have been various proposals made to alter the hybrid (electrical) side to reduce costs but none confirmed yet so far as I'm aware. The ICE specs (still the most complex element) remain unchanged.

Regards evolution the current PU and the knowledge that the UK operation staff have would be potentially slightly useful as a starting point if RB were to bring in a new company to operate the facility. But realistically it's a huge learning curve and they'd be years behind the cutting edge. The actual R&D development and refinement was all done in Japan - the UK facility obviously understand enough to assemble and maintain/problem solve the units but not the whole picture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Formula_One_World_Championship

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_engines

The "Power Units" section. I thought the 2021 changes had been postponed a year and that included significant engine changes, hence my surprise that so many are placing value on the Honda IP. So either things have moved on since I last paid attention to the specs and I'm out of date, or it was never as concrete as I thought in the first place, or the Honda IP won't be worth that much in 2022.

The Wiki article comes to no conclusions, just confirms that there were going to be significant engine changes in 2022 but there still seem to be other proposals.
Red Bull (Marko) has said that if they were to take on the Honda IP, it would be conditional on an engine spec freeze from 2022 - in order to give them a chance.

Can't really see Renault, Ferrari or Mercedes conceding to help them in this way, but the decision isn't completely in their hands.

SturdyHSV

7,329 posts

125 months

Friday 16th October
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
Red Bull (Marko) has said that if they were to take on the Honda IP, it would be conditional on an engine spec freeze from 2022 - in order to give them a chance.

Can't really see Renault, Ferrari or Mercedes conceding to help them in this way, but the decision isn't completely in their hands.
I imagine it'll be pitched as cost saving which may be more acceptable to the other teams?

After this many years of the ICE regs, they've got to be VERY deep in to the diminishing returns area where the costs for tiny improvements are enormous...