Official 2021 Portugal Grand Prix Thread **SPOILERS**

Official 2021 Portugal Grand Prix Thread **SPOILERS**

Author
Discussion

Sandpit Steve

2,759 posts

39 months

Thursday 29th April
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Yes. Divisional accounts will meticulously legitimise every last euro of illegitimately spent funds wink

Just like they recorded the exact right amount of fuel in leclerc's car last season, minus the extra bit..
That was the incident that drove home that not everything was above board at the Scuderia.

There’s no way they’d have accidentally got the fuel in the car wrong, the only reason for the 5kg error was that they planned to burn it during the race - and probably in a way that the FIA fuel flow sensor couldn’t notice properly.

TheDeuce

9,108 posts

31 months

Thursday 29th April
quotequote all
Sandpit Steve said:
TheDeuce said:
Yes. Divisional accounts will meticulously legitimise every last euro of illegitimately spent funds wink

Just like they recorded the exact right amount of fuel in leclerc's car last season, minus the extra bit..
That was the incident that drove home that not everything was above board at the Scuderia.

There’s no way they’d have accidentally got the fuel in the car wrong, the only reason for the 5kg error was that they planned to burn it during the race - and probably in a way that the FIA fuel flow sensor couldn’t notice properly.
They weren't officially cheating - it's just everything pointed towards the fact they were, and how. And then the FIA made the one change that would stop that specific way of cheating and Ferrari suddenly lost their pace advantage. Weird scratchchin

TheDeuce

9,108 posts

31 months

Thursday 29th April
quotequote all
kiseca said:
Todt, Brawn and Domenicali would know as well as anyone how Ferrari is financially structured and what opportunities they will have to cheat. Hopefully they've built that knowledge into their audits and checks and rules. Of course that doesn't mean they can think of everything, nor that they won't spend half the season with one blind eye (I find it hard to imagine any of them doing that, though)
They'll know how it's structured, but the way they account for transfers of materials and human resource between the two divisions can be adapted any time and the level of honesty and accuracy that the figures are based upon can also be adapted. Realistically any 'numerical bias' will be somewhat self policed anyway though - It'll be easier for Ferrari than the other teams to massage the figures, but they can only go so far before they'd be in the realms of major financial fraud as a company. If they managed to get an extra 5% budget with creative accounting, that would represent an misreporting of $7.25m, not exactly a small figure to explain away if it were ever uncovered. They would also need an awful lot of employees to play ball to cheat that way on a large scale.

What's almost amusing is that because of their 'special payments' from F1 each year, Ferrari could (if my calculations are right) finish last in constructors and still get paid enough to actually exceed the budget cap for the following season. Based on finishing 3rd this season, they'll get about $200m next season, $50m+ beyond what they'll be allowed to spend (minus exclusions).

super7

877 posts

173 months

Thursday 29th April
quotequote all
How about a sweepstake on what minute of first practice Mazepin will perform his first spin?? We all know it's going to happen at some point!

I'm going for minute 21

smile

super7

877 posts

173 months

Thursday 29th April
quotequote all
As for result....

1. Verstappen
2. Hamilton
3. Norris

Same as Imola.....

Russell in the top ten on merit as well. The Williams is getting better each weekend.

Byker28i

34,273 posts

182 months

Thursday 29th April
quotequote all
super7 said:
How about a sweepstake on what minute of first practice Mazepin will perform his first spin?? We all know it's going to happen at some point!

I'm going for minute 21

smile
lap 2 so about 3-4 minutes? biggrin

kiseca

8,910 posts

184 months

Thursday 29th April
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
They'll know how it's structured, but the way they account for transfers of materials and human resource between the two divisions can be adapted any time and the level of honesty and accuracy that the figures are based upon can also be adapted. Realistically any 'numerical bias' will be somewhat self policed anyway though - It'll be easier for Ferrari than the other teams to massage the figures, but they can only go so far before they'd be in the realms of major financial fraud as a company. If they managed to get an extra 5% budget with creative accounting, that would represent an misreporting of $7.25m, not exactly a small figure to explain away if it were ever uncovered. They would also need an awful lot of employees to play ball to cheat that way on a large scale.

What's almost amusing is that because of their 'special payments' from F1 each year, Ferrari could (if my calculations are right) finish last in constructors and still get paid enough to actually exceed the budget cap for the following season. Based on finishing 3rd this season, they'll get about $200m next season, $50m+ beyond what they'll be allowed to spend (minus exclusions).
Yeah I can believe it would be possible to hide funding for Ferrari - I would think for other teams as well but for those closely linked to a road car factory doubly so. But you raise a good point too - if hiding the fundings from F1 means fixing their account books and puts them into the realm of fraud and cheating the government - even if not actually paying less tax - that may well be a strong deterrent for many teams too. However, unlike with Todt, Brawn and Dominecali, I struggle to imagine the Italian government would be above turning a blind eye to their national treasure if it's helping them win in F1.

TheDeuce

9,108 posts

31 months

Thursday 29th April
quotequote all
kiseca said:
TheDeuce said:
They'll know how it's structured, but the way they account for transfers of materials and human resource between the two divisions can be adapted any time and the level of honesty and accuracy that the figures are based upon can also be adapted. Realistically any 'numerical bias' will be somewhat self policed anyway though - It'll be easier for Ferrari than the other teams to massage the figures, but they can only go so far before they'd be in the realms of major financial fraud as a company. If they managed to get an extra 5% budget with creative accounting, that would represent an misreporting of $7.25m, not exactly a small figure to explain away if it were ever uncovered. They would also need an awful lot of employees to play ball to cheat that way on a large scale.

What's almost amusing is that because of their 'special payments' from F1 each year, Ferrari could (if my calculations are right) finish last in constructors and still get paid enough to actually exceed the budget cap for the following season. Based on finishing 3rd this season, they'll get about $200m next season, $50m+ beyond what they'll be allowed to spend (minus exclusions).
Yeah I can believe it would be possible to hide funding for Ferrari - I would think for other teams as well but for those closely linked to a road car factory doubly so. But you raise a good point too - if hiding the fundings from F1 means fixing their account books and puts them into the realm of fraud and cheating the government - even if not actually paying less tax - that may well be a strong deterrent for many teams too. However, unlike with Todt, Brawn and Dominecali, I struggle to imagine the Italian government would be above turning a blind eye to their national treasure if it's helping them win in F1.
One of those tricky decisions in the life of an Italian politician... "Do I allow the authorities to pursue those claims against Ferrari, or do I quash it and get re-elected..." scratchchin

Remember this? https://www.racefans.net/2020/02/13/ferrari-threat...

The authorities must have forgotten to seize the car.. Perhaps they couldn't find the Ferrari factory. Although weirdly when someone started to make 1:1 replica's of the SF90 car and Ferrari didn't like it, the authorities DID step in and seize the replicas smile

Edited by TheDeuce on Thursday 29th April 15:53

RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat

12,195 posts

60 months

Thursday 29th April
quotequote all
Ferrari are to Italy what Real Madrid and Barcelona are to Spain and corruption to Boris Johnson. There is too much emotionally invested in them for actual rules to apply.

farm

26 posts

17 months

Thursday 29th April
quotequote all
Can they not just sub out jobs to "Windtunnels ltd" for a reduced figure?

TheDeuce

9,108 posts

31 months

Thursday 29th April
quotequote all
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
Ferrari are to Italy what Real Madrid and Barcelona are to Spain and corruption to Boris Johnson. There is too much emotionally invested in them for actual rules to apply.
Very true. And Ferrari are the darlings of F1 too, able to get away with murder - or worse (in racing terms), using extra fuel in a fuel limited race.

All of this would normally be very distressing in the modern world of corporate accountability and equality.. But thankfully Ferrari are so feckless these days that they can't convert any of their special treatment in to a title. Bless em.

Merry

897 posts

153 months

Thursday 29th April
quotequote all
Nampahc Niloc said:
That’s fair enough. I was probably doing them a bit of a disservice. It’s more than just a tub.
I do find it hard to believe they only have 3 tubs available though, especially given that it's a carry over from last year. I couldn't find any numbers for the w11/12 but in the past it was not uncommon to produce 4/5 chassis per year or more.

Do they really need to be building a new one from scratch?

Deesee

5,110 posts

48 months

Thursday 29th April
quotequote all
On from Imola and George Russell’s 2 million pound overtake (plus the lost WCC points for Williams getting to 8th so say an other 25 million), here’s the update on PU usage.

(New) EX = exhaust usage (9 per season allowed)

3 ICE, 3 TC, 3 MGU-H, 3 MGU-K, 2 ES and 2 CE



Hungry Hungry Hondas..

RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat

12,195 posts

60 months

Thursday 29th April
quotequote all
Verstappen doesn't seem to be doing badly. Only car of the 4 in the team not to need replacements. wink

TheDeuce

9,108 posts

31 months

Thursday 29th April
quotequote all
Deesee said:
(New) EX = exhaust usage (9 per season allowed)

3 ICE, 3 TC, 3 MGU-H, 3 MGU-K, 2 ES and 2 CE



Hungry Hungry Hondas..
A long season plus the sprint races... The parts usage will hurt RB hugely Vs Mercedes. Lots of theories bounding around about how much faster the RB might be... But it'll count for nothing if Mercedes suffer less grid penalties or especially dnfs. A single DNF wipes out the points difference between several 1st v 2nd places.

It's early days of course, for all I know Merc will suffer reliability issues/fragility too..

Deesee

5,110 posts

48 months

Thursday 29th April
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
A long season plus the sprint races... The parts usage will hurt RB hugely Vs Mercedes. Lots of theories bounding around about how much faster the RB might be... But it'll count for nothing if Mercedes suffer less grid penalties or especially dnfs. A single DNF wipes out the points difference between several 1st v 2nd places.

It's early days of course, for all I know Merc will suffer reliability issues/fragility too..
Nah, it’s the curse of deesee, I have Yuki and Pierre in my fantasy team + red bull, I’ll move on to Ferrari if they get racy but don’t worry chaps McLaren and Aston are off the menu hehe

23 races + the sprint Quali, earlier Parc Ferme, lots more mileage on the units and stress... tactical penalty’s, and tactical putting units/parts into the pool of components will be high priority.

HustleRussell

19,171 posts

125 months

Thursday 29th April
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Deesee said:
(New) EX = exhaust usage (9 per season allowed)

3 ICE, 3 TC, 3 MGU-H, 3 MGU-K, 2 ES and 2 CE



Hungry Hungry Hondas..
A long season plus the sprint races... The parts usage will hurt RB hugely Vs Mercedes. Lots of theories bounding around about how much faster the RB might be... But it'll count for nothing if Mercedes suffer less grid penalties or especially dnfs. A single DNF wipes out the points difference between several 1st v 2nd places.

It's early days of course, for all I know Merc will suffer reliability issues/fragility too..
The jury’s out, however by my recollection there have been more Mercedes PU / power train problems than Honda ones in the last 6 months or so.

With reference to ‘hungry hungry Hondas’, Yuki snapped his car in half in Imola qualifying which would’ve forced their hand somewhat.

Deesee

5,110 posts

48 months

Friday 30th April
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
The jury’s out, however by my recollection there have been more Mercedes PU / power train problems than Honda ones in the last 6 months or so.

With reference to ‘hungry hungry Hondas’, Yuki snapped his car in half in Imola qualifying which would’ve forced their hand somewhat.
Both have a completely new PU concept...

Ill keep track over the season, remember we are only 380 miles in of 'racing'..

Theres some pretty heavy throttle use tracks coming up, Spain, Paul Ricard, Baku and Istanbul Park, it will be interesting to see the reliability of all the PU during these.



Piginapoke

Original Poster:

1,881 posts

150 months

Friday 30th April
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Very true. And Ferrari are the darlings of F1 too, able to get away with murder - or worse (in racing terms), using extra fuel in a fuel limited race.

All of this would normally be very distressing in the modern world of corporate accountability and equality.. But thankfully Ferrari are so feckless these days that they can't convert any of their special treatment in to a title. Bless em.
Just a small point Deuce; Ferrari was never accused of having more fuel in the car than it was allowed to have (110kg), it was accused of having more fuel in the car than it had declared. The extra fuel is believed to have flowed through the fuel flow sensor on overrun and and then be stored, ready for the next application of the throttle. Pretty clever if you ask me.

Piginapoke

Original Poster:

1,881 posts

150 months

Friday 30th April
quotequote all
Deesee said:
On from Imola and George Russell’s 2 million pound overtake (plus the lost WCC points for Williams getting to 8th so say an other 25 million), here’s the update on PU usage.

(New) EX = exhaust usage (9 per season allowed)

3 ICE, 3 TC, 3 MGU-H, 3 MGU-K, 2 ES and 2 CE



Hungry Hungry Hondas..
Thanks Deesee. I'm amazed that Bottas hasn't has to swap any ICE or electronic bits after that shunt.

Prize money difference from 8 to 10th place is nearer to £5m than £25m, otherwise you'd see the smaller teams still pushing development this year.