Official 2021 Portugal Grand Prix Thread **SPOILERS**
Discussion
Hamilton had a great race. Verstappen's mistake and the Mercedes straight-line performance were impressive.
Bottas was just plain poor again. He just can't cope when Hamilton appears in his mirrors. To then make a huge mistake and give Verstappen 2nd easily was shocking. You just know Hamilton would not make these mistakes.
The Mercedes in a straight line is still too fast for any other car on the grid so IMO Mercedes will be extremely hard to beat especially at power circuits.
Bottas was just plain poor again. He just can't cope when Hamilton appears in his mirrors. To then make a huge mistake and give Verstappen 2nd easily was shocking. You just know Hamilton would not make these mistakes.
The Mercedes in a straight line is still too fast for any other car on the grid so IMO Mercedes will be extremely hard to beat especially at power circuits.
The Moose said:
Bottas really needs to start showing up and giving Max more of a hard time!
To be fair, we'll never know if Bottas could've stayed ahead if Mercedes had matched Red Bull's pit stop time.And we'll never know if he could've got within DRS and made the pass if he hadn't had the sensor issue.....(although I think we could have a pretty good guess
)RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
Gary C said:
That ignores the one feature in cars that has changed significantly
Risk of Death.
Some of todays drivers would just not have made it in the 50's.
I doubt it makes much difference to their desire to compete. How many drivers left the sport because of what happened at Imola '94? How many have left because of what happened at Bahrain last season? Jules Bianchi? Massa? Schumacher? Hakkinen?Risk of Death.
Some of todays drivers would just not have made it in the 50's.
It's only an opinion, but I think too much is made of the bravery of drivers back then when compared to those now. I believe the DNA of racers is that they'll take those risks if they exist. Today's drivers are lucky in that they walk away from accidents that would almost certainly have killed them 30 or more years ago. That's not to say the sport should be purposely unsafe, just that the drivers will compete despite a lack of safety. It doesn't seem to stop them.
You mention the recent deaths. How many drivers these days think that the chance of someone dying they know each season is a certainty ? They risk, yes, its a realistic possibility but in that era it was something that really was ever present each and every time they got in the car.
Some of todays F1 drivers would have excelled, some would not have been able to accept it.
Very different to learning to manage the tech of the day.
Mr_Thyroid said:
The Moose said:
Bottas really needs to start showing up and giving Max more of a hard time!
To be fair, we'll never know if Bottas could've stayed ahead if Mercedes had matched Red Bull's pit stop time.And we'll never know if he could've got within DRS and made the pass if he hadn't had the sensor issue.....(although I think we could have a pretty good guess
)ELUSIVEJIM said:
Hamilton had a great race. Verstappen's mistake and the Mercedes straight-line performance were impressive.
Bottas was just plain poor again. He just can't cope when Hamilton appears in his mirrors. To then make a huge mistake and give Verstappen 2nd easily was shocking. You just know Hamilton would not make these mistakes.
The Mercedes in a straight line is still too fast for any other car on the grid so IMO Mercedes will be extremely hard to beat especially at power circuits.
I didn’t see the Max on Bottas pass as a huge error? That was all about tyre temperature, and a very sharp / aggressive piece of driving by Max. Certainly don’t think the Bottas ‘mistake’ leading to Max’s pass was a biggy. No bigger than Lewis on the SC restart for example.Bottas was just plain poor again. He just can't cope when Hamilton appears in his mirrors. To then make a huge mistake and give Verstappen 2nd easily was shocking. You just know Hamilton would not make these mistakes.
The Mercedes in a straight line is still too fast for any other car on the grid so IMO Mercedes will be extremely hard to beat especially at power circuits.
thegreenhell said:
You can't just transplant someone from today into a different age and say they wouldn't have made it then. If they had actually been around then they would have different attitudes from the different upbringing they would have had at that time. People adjust to the norms of the time they are living in.
And anyone suggesting that Fangio wouldn't be able to twiddle some knobs on a steering wheel is simply laughable.
Imagine telling James Hunt that he needs a full time personal trainer - and that that’s not a euphemism for a drinking buddy who finds him girls in the bar on Friday and Saturday nights. And anyone suggesting that Fangio wouldn't be able to twiddle some knobs on a steering wheel is simply laughable.
All the most successful drivers grew up in and were people of their time. Fangio was still winning, at an age when today’s drivers can’t avoid running into their own team mate on the pit straight.
The Moose said:
Mr_Thyroid said:
The Moose said:
Bottas really needs to start showing up and giving Max more of a hard time!
To be fair, we'll never know if Bottas could've stayed ahead if Mercedes had matched Red Bull's pit stop time.And we'll never know if he could've got within DRS and made the pass if he hadn't had the sensor issue.....(although I think we could have a pretty good guess
)Mr_Thyroid said:
The point I was trying to make is that in two of the three races this year it has been the team, in part, that have cost Bottas the chance of a better result.
Absolutely. Mercedes definitely have a weak spot in the pit stop - especially when up against Red Bull, who have got them completely nailed, and have a habit of using pit strategy to get ahead of an otherwise faster car on circuits where overtaking is difficult.
Bottas should have been a second further up the road than he was yesterday, which would have likely been enough to get some temperature in those hard tyres and fight Max off to hold second. That slow pit stop cost Mercedes six points in the championship, and cost Lewis three points extra of a WDC lead.
Edit: and don’t forget what happened to poor George Russell last year in Bahrain, when the team threw away a 1-2 in the pits, for a handful of points.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Hamilton had a great race. Verstappen's mistake and the Mercedes straight-line performance were impressive.
Bottas was just plain poor again. He just can't cope when Hamilton appears in his mirrors. To then make a huge mistake and give Verstappen 2nd easily was shocking. You just know Hamilton would not make these mistakes.
The Mercedes in a straight line is still too fast for any other car on the grid so IMO Mercedes will be extremely hard to beat especially at power circuits.
C’mon on Elusive... you’re better than that. Did you actually watch the race? All the teams had problems switching the tyres on. Bottas was out the pits and Max was straight on him with a laps worth of temperature in them. Bottas wasn’t going to be able to defend his place without the mistake on cold tyres.Bottas was just plain poor again. He just can't cope when Hamilton appears in his mirrors. To then make a huge mistake and give Verstappen 2nd easily was shocking. You just know Hamilton would not make these mistakes.
The Mercedes in a straight line is still too fast for any other car on the grid so IMO Mercedes will be extremely hard to beat especially at power circuits.
I take you’re ignoring Verstappen’s mistakes that allowed Hamilton to pass him? He gave up 2nd place. And then he blew fastest lap! Same as he did pole. Shocking!!!
Bottas didn’t do a lot wrong in the race, more hampered by bad luck with sensor issues.
HighwayStar said:
C’mon on Elusive... you’re better than that. Did you actually watch the race? All the teams had problems switching the tyres on. Bottas was out the pits and Max was straight on him with a laps worth of temperature in them. Bottas wasn’t going to be able to defend his place without the mistake on cold tyres.
I take you’re ignoring Verstappen’s mistakes that allowed Hamilton to pass him? He gave up 2nd place. And then he blew fastest lap! Same as he did pole. Shocking!!!
Bottas didn’t do a lot wrong in the race, more hampered by bad luck with sensor issues.
The sensor issue lasted 1 lap. They quickly switched the faultly sensor input off and it was back to full power.I take you’re ignoring Verstappen’s mistakes that allowed Hamilton to pass him? He gave up 2nd place. And then he blew fastest lap! Same as he did pole. Shocking!!!
Bottas didn’t do a lot wrong in the race, more hampered by bad luck with sensor issues.
jsf said:
The sensor issue lasted 1 lap. They quickly switched the faultly sensor input off and it was back to full power.
Still cost him 3 or 4 seconds, though. Enough to end his chances of pressuring Max. Separately, Mercedes made another error by bringing Bottas in for softs 1 lap too early, which gave Max chance to pit himself and go for fastest lap. They got lucky Max cocked it up.
jsf said:
HighwayStar said:
C’mon on Elusive... you’re better than that. Did you actually watch the race? All the teams had problems switching the tyres on. Bottas was out the pits and Max was straight on him with a laps worth of temperature in them. Bottas wasn’t going to be able to defend his place without the mistake on cold tyres.
I take you’re ignoring Verstappen’s mistakes that allowed Hamilton to pass him? He gave up 2nd place. And then he blew fastest lap! Same as he did pole. Shocking!!!
Bottas didn’t do a lot wrong in the race, more hampered by bad luck with sensor issues.
The sensor issue lasted 1 lap. They quickly switched the faultly sensor input off and it was back to full power.I take you’re ignoring Verstappen’s mistakes that allowed Hamilton to pass him? He gave up 2nd place. And then he blew fastest lap! Same as he did pole. Shocking!!!
Bottas didn’t do a lot wrong in the race, more hampered by bad luck with sensor issues.
Its basic industrial engineering. One will always break, two and you won't know which one is bad, three and you have a chance but have four to make sure.
Is the exhaust temp sensor used as part of the active engine control or just as an operational limit ?, ie when they 'failed' it, did the map default to a more conservative mode that reduced power slightly or would it have reverted to full power I wonder.
Gary C said:
Is the exhaust temp sensor used as part of the active engine control or just as an operational limit ?, ie when they 'failed' it, did the map default to a more conservative mode that reduced power slightly or would it have reverted to full power I wonder.
He had enough power to set fastest lap of the race.thegreenhell said:
Gary C said:
Is the exhaust temp sensor used as part of the active engine control or just as an operational limit ?, ie when they 'failed' it, did the map default to a more conservative mode that reduced power slightly or would it have reverted to full power I wonder.
He had enough power to set fastest lap of the race.Gary C said:
Dont they use voting for power limiting sensors ?
Its basic industrial engineering. One will always break, two and you won't know which one is bad, three and you have a chance but have four to make sure.
Is the exhaust temp sensor used as part of the active engine control or just as an operational limit ?, ie when they 'failed' it, did the map default to a more conservative mode that reduced power slightly or would it have reverted to full power I wonder.
From some limited aviation knowledge, EGT sensors are horrible things. Its basic industrial engineering. One will always break, two and you won't know which one is bad, three and you have a chance but have four to make sure.
Is the exhaust temp sensor used as part of the active engine control or just as an operational limit ?, ie when they 'failed' it, did the map default to a more conservative mode that reduced power slightly or would it have reverted to full power I wonder.
They will be the single hottest electrically powered part on the whole car, and just by being there in the exhaust flow, they’re in the way of the engine making more power.
Presumably they have enough other sensors and ‘fail’ modes around, that they can quickly determine a sensor failure over an actual overheat and react accordingly, bearing in mind that the modern F1 engine has to meet a definition of reliability that much prefers to derate it while they work through the issue, than let anything actually overheat. A couple of slow laps is very much preferable to a Big Bang.
Gary C said:
Dont they use voting for power limiting sensors ?
Its basic industrial engineering. One will always break, two and you won't know which one is bad, three and you have a chance but have four to make sure.
Is the exhaust temp sensor used as part of the active engine control or just as an operational limit ?, ie when they 'failed' it, did the map default to a more conservative mode that reduced power slightly or would it have reverted to full power I wonder.
That's industrial engineering - not automotive and especially not F1. I'd personally agree and design in the extra sensors to cover off false readings - but imagine if everyone working on an F1 car took the same approach..? It's weigh more than a Mondeo and the wiring loom would be longer than the circuit it races on..Its basic industrial engineering. One will always break, two and you won't know which one is bad, three and you have a chance but have four to make sure.
Is the exhaust temp sensor used as part of the active engine control or just as an operational limit ?, ie when they 'failed' it, did the map default to a more conservative mode that reduced power slightly or would it have reverted to full power I wonder.
TheDeuce said:
Gary C said:
Dont they use voting for power limiting sensors ?
Its basic industrial engineering. One will always break, two and you won't know which one is bad, three and you have a chance but have four to make sure.
Is the exhaust temp sensor used as part of the active engine control or just as an operational limit ?, ie when they 'failed' it, did the map default to a more conservative mode that reduced power slightly or would it have reverted to full power I wonder.
That's industrial engineering - not automotive and especially not F1. I'd personally agree (automation engineer) and design in the extra sensors to cover off false readings - but imagine if everyone working on an F1 car took the same approach..? It's weigh more than a Mondeo and the wiring loom would be longer than the circuit it races on..Its basic industrial engineering. One will always break, two and you won't know which one is bad, three and you have a chance but have four to make sure.
Is the exhaust temp sensor used as part of the active engine control or just as an operational limit ?, ie when they 'failed' it, did the map default to a more conservative mode that reduced power slightly or would it have reverted to full power I wonder.
but it wouldn't need to weigh much with four thin Iron/con TC's or platinum RTD's.
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