Official 2021 Portugal Grand Prix Thread **SPOILERS**

Official 2021 Portugal Grand Prix Thread **SPOILERS**

Author
Discussion

Sandpit Steve

2,759 posts

39 months

Monday 3rd May
quotequote all
Gary C said:
Yep, didn't think of that smile

but it wouldn't need to weigh much with four thin Iron/con TC's or platinum RTD's.
It might only need a couple of hundred grams.

But there’s a hundred other sensors with similar issues, and if you do it with all of them you’re now adding 20kg to the car...

In the 1980s mad turbo qualifying days, they had no telemetry from those silly one-lap special engines - because they didn’t want the weight of all the sensors.

TheDeuce

9,108 posts

31 months

Monday 3rd May
quotequote all
Gary C said:
TheDeuce said:
Gary C said:
Dont they use voting for power limiting sensors ?

Its basic industrial engineering. One will always break, two and you won't know which one is bad, three and you have a chance but have four to make sure.

Is the exhaust temp sensor used as part of the active engine control or just as an operational limit ?, ie when they 'failed' it, did the map default to a more conservative mode that reduced power slightly or would it have reverted to full power I wonder.
That's industrial engineering - not automotive and especially not F1. I'd personally agree (automation engineer) and design in the extra sensors to cover off false readings - but imagine if everyone working on an F1 car took the same approach..? It's weigh more than a Mondeo and the wiring loom would be longer than the circuit it races on..
Yep, didn't think of that smile

but it wouldn't need to weigh much with four thin Iron/con TC's or platinum RTD's.
In that example, sure. But by the same principle there are mechanical sensors across the car that should also be doubled/tripled/quadrupled.... So long as the rules allow real time data monitoring, it's better in terms of weight/packaging to use a single sensor and simply ignore it if the data goes way outside typical parameters.

rdjohn

4,876 posts

160 months

Monday 3rd May
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
Gary C said:
Some of todays drivers would just not have made it in the 50's.
Mazepin would not survive FP1.......
rofl

The young guys today do have the benefit of the efforts made by JYS and others for which they was lambasted in an era when there was no Social media.

Max whinging about losing his lap time, puts this into some perspective.

Mr Pointy

7,915 posts

124 months

Monday 3rd May
quotequote all
Sandpit Steve said:
Mr_Thyroid said:
The point I was trying to make is that in two of the three races this year it has been the team, in part, that have cost Bottas the chance of a better result.
Absolutely.

Mercedes definitely have a weak spot in the pit stop - especially when up against Red Bull, who have got them completely nailed, and have a habit of using pit strategy to get ahead of an otherwise faster car on circuits where overtaking is difficult.

Bottas should have been a second further up the road than he was yesterday, which would have likely been enough to get some temperature in those hard tyres and fight Max off to hold second. That slow pit stop cost Mercedes six points in the championship, and cost Lewis three points extra of a WDC lead.

Edit: and don’t forget what happened to poor George Russell last year in Bahrain, when the team threw away a 1-2 in the pits, for a handful of points.
I wonder if we are seeing the result of a deliberate Mercedes strategy to not go for shaving the last tenth of a second off the pit stop time & instead be mistake-free. Let's face it they have been so dominant for years that they don't need to hunt for a tenth in the pits, they could pull that out on the track. Now they are in a real fight with RB they suddenly find they can't give that time away so they need to up their game.

Mind you, going slow didn't stop them putting the wrong tyres on Bottas's car.

Drawweight

1,531 posts

81 months

Monday 3rd May
quotequote all
Mr Pointy said:
thegreenhell said:
And anyone suggesting that Fangio wouldn't be able to twiddle some knobs on a steering wheel is simply laughable.
The premise was that Fangio would quickly be able to learn to drive a modern F1 car as fast as Hamilton. He couldn't; he simply wouldn't have the vocabulary to even talk about most aspects of the car. He wouldn't even know why the car has wings on it.

All Hamilton has to do is forget about all the fripperies & (apparantly) learn how to use the gearbox & clutch.
You’re assuming grown up Fangio and grown up Hamilton are swapping places instantaneously. That’s like transplanting a Spitfire pilot into an F35 Lightning II and expecting him to fly it in combat without going through years of training.

It’s completely unfair to transplant either driver out of their time and compare them to someone who has grown up in that era. If Fangio was born the same time as Lewis and came up through karts like Lewis there’s no reason why he couldn’t fulfill his full potential in this time frame.

Now whether a modern day Fangio with modern knowledge could beat a modern day Lewis we’ll never know but he would have all the tools and knowledge to give it a good go.

jsf

22,434 posts

201 months

Monday 3rd May
quotequote all
Gary C said:
Dont they use voting for power limiting sensors ?

Its basic industrial engineering. One will always break, two and you won't know which one is bad, three and you have a chance but have four to make sure.

Is the exhaust temp sensor used as part of the active engine control or just as an operational limit ?, ie when they 'failed' it, did the map default to a more conservative mode that reduced power slightly or would it have reverted to full power I wonder.
They have at least one on each bank. You can tell when a sensor is dead or its a genuine issue with the power unit based on the output. They will have a default fail value applied in the base map for each cylinder when the sensor hits the fail value which cuts power, then override it manually after a few checks to just ignore the safeties on that cylinder and use the other 5 as reference. I can do that on my own car, its nothing special.

Sandpit Steve

2,759 posts

39 months

Monday 3rd May
quotequote all
Mr Pointy said:
I wonder if we are seeing the result of a deliberate Mercedes strategy to not go for shaving the last tenth of a second off the pit stop time & instead be mistake-free. Let's face it they have been so dominant for years that they don't need to hunt for a tenth in the pits, they could pull that out on the track. Now they are in a real fight with RB they suddenly find they can't give that time away so they need to up their game.

Mind you, going slow didn't stop them putting the wrong tyres on Bottas's car.
There is a bit of that yes, but they lost second place in the pits yesterday and still make quite slow stops occasionally. If they were always in the 2.3-2.5 range, it wouldn’t be an issue.

Lewis took a 4.0 last time out in Italy when chasing Max down, thanks to a common stuck wheel caused by their struggle with tyre temps.

Bottas lost more than a second vs Max yesterday, and the less said about the Russell and Bottas screwup the better - maybe Lewis would have either declined to stop or noticed the ‘VB’ printed on his front tyres before leaving the box - but George, at a new team, wasn’t looking at anything but the light. Maybe they were too relaxed after already winning both championships, but this year that sort of screwup could be pivotal.

Edit: they also screwed up the timing of Bottas’ second stop yesterday, it was one lap too early and gave Max a free stop too - which nearly sent the bonus point the wrong way, but for track limits.

Edited by Sandpit Steve on Monday 3rd May 20:03

Stan the Bat

6,384 posts

177 months

Gary C

7,762 posts

144 months

Monday 3rd May
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Gary C said:
TheDeuce said:
Gary C said:
Dont they use voting for power limiting sensors ?

Its basic industrial engineering. One will always break, two and you won't know which one is bad, three and you have a chance but have four to make sure.

Is the exhaust temp sensor used as part of the active engine control or just as an operational limit ?, ie when they 'failed' it, did the map default to a more conservative mode that reduced power slightly or would it have reverted to full power I wonder.
That's industrial engineering - not automotive and especially not F1. I'd personally agree (automation engineer) and design in the extra sensors to cover off false readings - but imagine if everyone working on an F1 car took the same approach..? It's weigh more than a Mondeo and the wiring loom would be longer than the circuit it races on..
Yep, didn't think of that smile

but it wouldn't need to weigh much with four thin Iron/con TC's or platinum RTD's.
In that example, sure. But by the same principle there are mechanical sensors across the car that should also be doubled/tripled/quadrupled.... So long as the rules allow real time data monitoring, it's better in terms of weight/packaging to use a single sensor and simply ignore it if the data goes way outside typical parameters.
Fair enough. Does cause a delay as they sort it.

Flooble

2,973 posts

65 months

Monday 3rd May
quotequote all
Sandpit Steve said:
Mr Pointy said:
I wonder if we are seeing the result of a deliberate Mercedes strategy to not go for shaving the last tenth of a second off the pit stop time & instead be mistake-free. Let's face it they have been so dominant for years that they don't need to hunt for a tenth in the pits, they could pull that out on the track. Now they are in a real fight with RB they suddenly find they can't give that time away so they need to up their game.

Mind you, going slow didn't stop them putting the wrong tyres on Bottas's car.
There is a bit of that yes, but they lost second place in the pits yesterday and still make quite slow stops occasionally. If they were always in the 2.3-2.5 range, it wouldn’t be an issue.

Lewis took a 4.0 last time out in Italy when chasing Max down, thanks to a common stuck wheel caused by their struggle with tyre temps.

Bottas lost more than a second vs Max yesterday, and the less said about the Russell and Bottas screwup the better - maybe Lewis would have either declined to stop or noticed the ‘VB’ printed on his front tyres before leaving the box - but George, at a new team, wasn’t looking at anything but the light. Maybe they were too relaxed after already winning both championships, but this year that sort of screwup could be pivotal.

Edit: they also screwed up the timing of Bottas’ second stop yesterday, it was one lap too early and gave Max a free stop too - which nearly sent the bonus point the wrong way, but for track limits.

Edited by Sandpit Steve on Monday 3rd May 20:03
Also calling Hamilton in when the pitlane was closed. Telling Hamilton he was fine to do practice starts at the end of the pitlane. I forget whether not calling the cars in at the Austrian Grand Prix when the 2nd safety car happened was the right move or not - I do remember it left them vulnerable (the third safety car saved them a lot of tyre wear but did close up the field ...).

In previous years we've had Hamilton left out at Monaco on tyres that shouldn't really have lasted; paralysis when faced with a VSC in Australia that gave the race to Vettel; Hamilton just overrulling the team in time to avoid losing the German Grand Prix (2018?? "In In In In In In" on the radio is what I remember ...) and probably other errors I've forgotten.

95 fiesta si

1,174 posts

117 months

Monday 3rd May
quotequote all
Stan the Bat said:
Crap video

HTP99

18,137 posts

105 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
95 fiesta si said:
Stan the Bat said:
Crap video
Must admit, I'd not a clue what it was all about.

fomb

1,352 posts

176 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
Stan the Bat said:
That's unwatchable

Derek Smith

39,227 posts

213 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
Sandpit Steve said:
There is a bit of that yes, but they lost second place in the pits yesterday and still make quite slow stops occasionally. If they were always in the 2.3-2.5 range, it wouldn’t be an issue.

Lewis took a 4.0 last time out in Italy when chasing Max down, thanks to a common stuck wheel caused by their struggle with tyre temps.

Bottas lost more than a second vs Max yesterday, and the less said about the Russell and Bottas screwup the better - maybe Lewis would have either declined to stop or noticed the ‘VB’ printed on his front tyres before leaving the box - but George, at a new team, wasn’t looking at anything but the light. Maybe they were too relaxed after already winning both championships, but this year that sort of screwup could be pivotal.

Edit: they also screwed up the timing of Bottas’ second stop yesterday, it was one lap too early and gave Max a free stop too - which nearly sent the bonus point the wrong way, but for track limits.

Edited by Sandpit Steve on Monday 3rd May 20:03
The timing of the change of tyres for the flying lap was a basic error. I noticed at the time, as he entered the pits, and I'm no strategist, just a viewer. How can they make such fools of themselves? They alternate between being as slick and sophisticated, and then they go all inept. It's not as if they were under great pressure.

It's a bit funny in reality.

I'm a McLaren fan and so am used to horrendous errors, but really, Mercedes, you should do something about it.

MustangGT

8,829 posts

245 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
The timing of the change of tyres for the flying lap was a basic error. I noticed at the time, as he entered the pits, and I'm no strategist, just a viewer. How can they make such fools of themselves? They alternate between being as slick and sophisticated, and then they go all inept. It's not as if they were under great pressure.

It's a bit funny in reality.

I'm a McLaren fan and so am used to horrendous errors, but really, Mercedes, you should do something about it.
I think they thought it would take VB 2 laps to warm them up, then the flyer on the final lap?

Derek Smith

39,227 posts

213 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
MustangGT said:
I think they thought it would take VB 2 laps to warm them up, then the flyer on the final lap?
I can understand that, but that was only to optimum speed. All they needed was to have a better time than MV was capable of on his old hards. The way they did it left RB to follow Bottas in and try for fastest lap. One lap later and they'd be there without having to depend on MV going outside track limits.

If I could see it . . .

Cabinet Enforcer

473 posts

191 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
I can understand that, but that was only to optimum speed. All they needed was to have a better time than MV was capable of on his old hards. The way they did it left RB to follow Bottas in and try for fastest lap. One lap later and they'd be there without having to depend on MV going outside track limits.

If I could see it . . .
It is so completely obvious that they stopped a lap early that I assumed they were thinking that it would suprise Verstappen/Red Bull and that they hoped to gain a place from a pit stop error or from Max going off circuit with trying too hard. It seems barely credible that they genuinely made such a dumb mistake.


ajprice

20,286 posts

161 months

Wednesday
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Mercedes debrief