Valtteri Bottas at Mercedes

Valtteri Bottas at Mercedes

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super7

893 posts

174 months

Wednesday 5th May
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
super7 said:
I can only see this getting worse. He can see Russell in the background, he had his nose rubbed in it last year at Bahrain, and he knows this is his last year.

I can see that if his current form continues, Toto will have to make a change.
Current form?

Here's Bottas' results for the last 5 races:

Sakhir '20. Pole. Finished 8th. Team cocked up his pit stop
Abu Dhabi '20. 2nd on grid. Finished 2nd
Bahrain '21. 3rd on grid. Finished 3rd
Imola '21. 8th on grid. DNF. Hit by George Russell
Portugal '21. Pole. Finished 3rd

I'll grant you that he needs to challenge Max a bit more but, looking objectively at the above, he had a cack race in Imola but is doing just fine for Mercedes apart from that.


Edited by Muzzer79 on Wednesday 5th May 11:32
Sakhir '20. Should have been team lead. Qualified on Pole, but was made to look stupid by a driver he should have walked all over. That was a big smack in the Solar Plexus.
Abu Dhabi '20 Held station. Not bad, not good.
Bahrain '21 Held Station. Not bad, not good.
Imola '21 Terrible. He should have been nowhere near Russell except for lapping him.
Portugal '21. Dropped two places?? Has the same car as Hamilton, should have been right up there and certainly not taken by Verstappen

You need to remember that anything less than 2nd for Bottas is a bad performance. And it's not just the result you should look at, it's how his performance was during the race. Sahkir, Imola, Portugal, we're all negative races for him.

He's becoming an Albon...... and Albon had a 10th of the experience of Bottas.

I still wonder if Hamilton had not of taken Albon out on two dead cert wins, would RB have binned him ???


Edited by super7 on Wednesday 5th May 12:11

sparta6

2,616 posts

66 months

Wednesday 5th May
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
sparta6 said:
TheDeuce said:
sparta6 said:
Muzzer79 said:
Jake899 said:
I think to surmise my point; Even as Lewis' back up driver, he should still be bringing more points to Mercedes than he has been.
Bottas has finished second in the driver's championship for the last 2 seasons, behind Hamilton.

.
Yes, but behind by how many points ?

The Red Bull was largely shonky with snap under/oversteer, only Max could handle it. Perez has now arrived and their car has improved.

If Bottas maintains a similar 2020 points gap behind his team mate this season, Mercedes will lose the WCC. Even though Mercedes is the faster car as Toto shouted to Bottas in Portugal.

Jake899 is correct, Bottas will become a liability as the season progresses. Russell is the natural replacement
Mercedes will lose the WCC.. care to show your workings out on that one..?

Don't let it bother you that with two Max's last season, Merc still would have won.. or that already Merc are nearly a DNF ahead in WCC this season despite one of their cars already suffering a DNF.
Ofcourse it depends on where 2 x Max's keep finishing.
1 x Max had 5 DNF's in 2020.

Too early to call, but car 44 should bag the WDC even with engine turned down for the showbiz show. Incredible reliability since 2014.
Your logic (such as it is) falls down when you actually look at the results so far though...

Lewis is ahead of Max.

Bottas is against of Perez.

Talking of reliability.. Bottas is ahead of Perez after three races, one of which he didn't even complete. So I guess Bottas could DNF for around 1/3 of the season and still get the job done based on what we have seen to date? smile And extreme example of course, but you get the jist.

Bottom line, Bottas only has to beat Perez. The fact he's also close enough to Lewis to apply pressure on to Max is just a bonus. Perez is doing fine so far imo, he's doing a good job. But he's simply not as close to Max as Bottas is to Lewis, and unless he can improve on that very quickly, RB have no realistic shot at WCC this season. Not unless Merc hit some extreme reliability issues. As you have pointed out, reliability issues are historically more likely to effect RB anyway.
Plenty of IF's here.

What if the mid-season change was Bottas for Perez ?

Bottas in the Red Bull could be entertaining

TheDeuce

9,586 posts

32 months

Wednesday 5th May
quotequote all
sparta6 said:
TheDeuce said:
sparta6 said:
TheDeuce said:
sparta6 said:
Muzzer79 said:
Jake899 said:
I think to surmise my point; Even as Lewis' back up driver, he should still be bringing more points to Mercedes than he has been.
Bottas has finished second in the driver's championship for the last 2 seasons, behind Hamilton.

.
Yes, but behind by how many points ?

The Red Bull was largely shonky with snap under/oversteer, only Max could handle it. Perez has now arrived and their car has improved.

If Bottas maintains a similar 2020 points gap behind his team mate this season, Mercedes will lose the WCC. Even though Mercedes is the faster car as Toto shouted to Bottas in Portugal.

Jake899 is correct, Bottas will become a liability as the season progresses. Russell is the natural replacement
Mercedes will lose the WCC.. care to show your workings out on that one..?

Don't let it bother you that with two Max's last season, Merc still would have won.. or that already Merc are nearly a DNF ahead in WCC this season despite one of their cars already suffering a DNF.
Ofcourse it depends on where 2 x Max's keep finishing.
1 x Max had 5 DNF's in 2020.

Too early to call, but car 44 should bag the WDC even with engine turned down for the showbiz show. Incredible reliability since 2014.
Your logic (such as it is) falls down when you actually look at the results so far though...

Lewis is ahead of Max.

Bottas is against of Perez.

Talking of reliability.. Bottas is ahead of Perez after three races, one of which he didn't even complete. So I guess Bottas could DNF for around 1/3 of the season and still get the job done based on what we have seen to date? smile And extreme example of course, but you get the jist.

Bottom line, Bottas only has to beat Perez. The fact he's also close enough to Lewis to apply pressure on to Max is just a bonus. Perez is doing fine so far imo, he's doing a good job. But he's simply not as close to Max as Bottas is to Lewis, and unless he can improve on that very quickly, RB have no realistic shot at WCC this season. Not unless Merc hit some extreme reliability issues. As you have pointed out, reliability issues are historically more likely to effect RB anyway.
Plenty of IF's here.

What if the mid-season change was Bottas for Perez ?

Bottas in the Red Bull could be entertaining
In what world would that happen..? Why?


Supersam83

520 posts

111 months

Wednesday 5th May
quotequote all
I've mentioned this on another thread here but I totally agree with OP.

Bottas is just not a good enough driver to be in the 2nd Mercedes F1 seat.

Just comparing him with the previous driver Nico Rosberg shows how bad he is:

LH vs NR 78 Races together as Mercedes teammates.

LH Poles - 35
NR Poles - 29

LH Wins - 32
NR Wins - 22

LH Fastest Laps - 19
NR Fastest Laps - 16

LH Podiums - 55
NR Podiums - 50

Now, look at LH vs VB 82* Races together as Mercedes teammates. (*As of Portugal 2021)

LH Poles - 38
VB Poles - 17

LH Wins - 44
VB Wins - 9

LH Fastest Laps - 23
VB Fastest Laps - 16

LH Podiums - 64
VB Podiums - 49

Bottas is actually one of the biggest reasons LH has reached and broken the F1 records that he has (Wins, Poles, etc).

I'm sure that Lewis Hamilton is very very happy that Bottas is in the 2nd Mercedes and has been for the past 4 seasons.

It would have been a very different story if he was up against a similar level driver to Rosberg. yes

Alongside the stats, I just feel he isn't that good for Mercedes at marketing either.

I really hope that this season is his last at Mercedes, but then again I have been hoping for this since 2017 laugh


sparta6

2,616 posts

66 months

Wednesday 5th May
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
sparta6 said:
TheDeuce said:
sparta6 said:
TheDeuce said:
sparta6 said:
Muzzer79 said:
Jake899 said:
I think to surmise my point; Even as Lewis' back up driver, he should still be bringing more points to Mercedes than he has been.
Bottas has finished second in the driver's championship for the last 2 seasons, behind Hamilton.

.
Yes, but behind by how many points ?

The Red Bull was largely shonky with snap under/oversteer, only Max could handle it. Perez has now arrived and their car has improved.

If Bottas maintains a similar 2020 points gap behind his team mate this season, Mercedes will lose the WCC. Even though Mercedes is the faster car as Toto shouted to Bottas in Portugal.

Jake899 is correct, Bottas will become a liability as the season progresses. Russell is the natural replacement
Mercedes will lose the WCC.. care to show your workings out on that one..?

Don't let it bother you that with two Max's last season, Merc still would have won.. or that already Merc are nearly a DNF ahead in WCC this season despite one of their cars already suffering a DNF.
Ofcourse it depends on where 2 x Max's keep finishing.
1 x Max had 5 DNF's in 2020.

Too early to call, but car 44 should bag the WDC even with engine turned down for the showbiz show. Incredible reliability since 2014.
Your logic (such as it is) falls down when you actually look at the results so far though...

Lewis is ahead of Max.

Bottas is against of Perez.

Talking of reliability.. Bottas is ahead of Perez after three races, one of which he didn't even complete. So I guess Bottas could DNF for around 1/3 of the season and still get the job done based on what we have seen to date? smile And extreme example of course, but you get the jist.

Bottom line, Bottas only has to beat Perez. The fact he's also close enough to Lewis to apply pressure on to Max is just a bonus. Perez is doing fine so far imo, he's doing a good job. But he's simply not as close to Max as Bottas is to Lewis, and unless he can improve on that very quickly, RB have no realistic shot at WCC this season. Not unless Merc hit some extreme reliability issues. As you have pointed out, reliability issues are historically more likely to effect RB anyway.
Plenty of IF's here.

What if the mid-season change was Bottas for Perez ?

Bottas in the Red Bull could be entertaining
In what world would that happen..? Why?
F1 World.
Anything is possible.

Who thought Vettel could be a 4 x WDC ? hehe

HustleRussell

19,425 posts

126 months

Wednesday 5th May
quotequote all
Bottas won’t retain his Mercedes drive for 2022 but Mercedes won’t replace him in-season.

He will have had 5 years in the top team in the sport which is ample time to achieve whatever he was destined to achieve.

He is a great driver who pushed Hamilton on one lap pace and took a number of poles, but is too weak on race pace in the early part of the race and too passive in wheel to wheel racing to continue to occupy a seat in view of Hamilton wishing to continue and Mercedes young drivers pushing through.

Edited by HustleRussell on Wednesday 5th May 12:51

sparta6

2,616 posts

66 months

Wednesday 5th May
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
He will have had 5 years in the top team in the sport which is ample time to demonstrate his full potential.

Edited by HustleRussell on Wednesday 5th May 12:47
Yes. In the cut throat world of F1, Toto Manager has been considerably patient with him.


HustleRussell

19,425 posts

126 months

Wednesday 5th May
quotequote all
sparta6 said:
Yes. In the cut throat world of F1, Toto Manager has been considerably patient with him.
I am sure Hamilton has a lot to do with his retention so far, and I’m sure Hamilton will continue to push for his retention. However with Hamilton himself entering the final year(s) of his career, the team will have an eye towards future stars. As the number of years remaining in Hamilton’s F1 career reduce, so does his influence over the decision on the second driver.

Edited by HustleRussell on Wednesday 5th May 13:00

mat205125

16,169 posts

179 months

Wednesday 5th May
quotequote all
sparta6 said:
Muzzer79 said:
Jake899 said:
I think to surmise my point; Even as Lewis' back up driver, he should still be bringing more points to Mercedes than he has been.
Bottas has finished second in the driver's championship for the last 2 seasons, behind Hamilton.

.
Yes, but behind by how many points ?

The Red Bull was largely shonky with snap under/oversteer, only Max could handle it. Perez has now arrived and their car has improved.

If Bottas maintains a similar 2020 points gap behind his team mate this season, Mercedes will lose the WCC. Even though Mercedes is the faster car as Toto shouted to Bottas in Portugal.

Jake899 is correct, Bottas will become a liability as the season progresses. Russell is the natural replacement
That's what makes him ideal for the seat. He's getting the job done and bringing home the manufacturers titles without causing too many headaches for Toto

Whilst I'd love to see Russell in the seat, I can see why Toto would be reluctant to have someone too keen to race wheel to wheel with Lewis

320d is all you need

2,114 posts

9 months

Wednesday 5th May
quotequote all
All this talk of George Russell.

I still think he has some serious growth before he is able to hack it in the Mercedes

Take Imola.

His crash with Valterri is almost an exact carbon copy of Hamiltons pass on I think it was on Norris.

Almost down to the mm - Hamilton handled it with class, Russell panicked and sent it into the grass.

He needs another year or two to mature his race craft and develop as a driver IMO.

Hamilton is fantastic and the best driver on the grid, but he is the loud shouty high selling salesperson who is always getting praised by the boss.

Yet Valterri goes about his business, doing 85% as Hamilton without the faff and drama surrounding it, I think he is a great number 2 at Mercedes.

Although yes, they may well want Russell next season, I can tell you if I was an F1 driver and all I saw in news was that George was going to have my seat and un substantiated rumours I'd be fired mid season then I'd probably be operating at less than peak too.

HustleRussell

19,425 posts

126 months

Wednesday 5th May
quotequote all
In seasons where Mercedes have competition, Bottas does not come 2nd in the WDC. He will have only been 2nd in the WDC twice out of five years if we assume he finishes up behind Verstappen this year.

In 2018 he was 5th behind Raikkonen among others.

sparta6

2,616 posts

66 months

Wednesday 5th May
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
sparta6 said:
Yes. In the cut throat world of F1, Toto Manager has been considerably patient with him.
I am sure Hamilton has a lot to do with his retention so far, and I’m sure Hamilton will continue to push for his retention. However with Hamilton himself entering the final year(s) of his career, the team will have an eye towards future stars. As the number of years remaining in Hamilton’s F1 career reduce, so does his influence over the decision on the second driver.

Edited by HustleRussell on Wednesday 5th May 13:00
Agree on all fronts.
Hamilton has been unencumbered since 2017.
Coupled with incredible car reliability, I doubt the sport will ever see such a period again.


HustleRussell

19,425 posts

126 months

Wednesday 5th May
quotequote all
sparta6 said:
I doubt the sport will ever see such a period again.
I really hope not, although I personally prefer all of those records to be with Hamilton than with Schumacher.

Jake899

Original Poster:

88 posts

10 months

Wednesday 5th May
quotequote all
I completely agree that for the constructors title, Bottas has to beat Perez. After three races, including a DNF, he is doing the job.
But I strongly suspect Perez will be much closer to Max this year than the previous second Red Bull drivers of the last few seasons. I believe that Red Bull will push Mercedes closer than throughout this season.
I just don't think that Mercedes can afford to leave championship points on the table this year and that is what Bottas has and will continue to do.
Equally, I just don't know if it is a bigger risk to bring another driver in before the season end, or hope that Bottas can deliver. Toto's call.

TheDeuce

9,586 posts

32 months

Wednesday 5th May
quotequote all
Supersam83 said:
I've mentioned this on another thread here but I totally agree with OP.

Bottas is just not a good enough driver to be in the 2nd Mercedes F1 seat.

.....

Bottas is actually one of the biggest reasons LH has reached and broken the F1 records that he has (Wins, Poles, etc).

I'm sure that Lewis Hamilton is very very happy that Bottas is in the 2nd Mercedes and has been for the past 4 seasons.

It would have been a very different story if he was up against a similar level driver to Rosberg. yes

Alongside the stats, I just feel he isn't that good for Mercedes at marketing either.

I really hope that this season is his last at Mercedes, but then again I have been hoping for this since 2017 laugh

That's exactly why bottas makes sense for Mercedes though, because it's allowed Lewis to become statistically the greatest of all time - at Mercedes, in a Mercedes car! What else do you think they're in the sport for if not to look amazing?

True, if Nico had stayed they'd probably have as many WCC's but not the all time record smashing wdc tally for one driver too. And this season with Nico battling Lewis and them both battling max... Frankly I'd say they're better off with bottas.

It's waaaaay too simplistic to assume the best driver is the best driver for this particular scenario.

SpudLink

3,698 posts

158 months

Wednesday 5th May
quotequote all
Supersam83 said:
I've mentioned this on another thread here but I totally agree with OP.

Bottas is just not a good enough driver to be in the 2nd Mercedes F1 seat.

Just comparing him with the previous driver Nico Rosberg shows how bad he is:

LH vs NR 78 Races together as Mercedes teammates.

LH Poles - 35
NR Poles - 29

LH Wins - 32
NR Wins - 22

LH Fastest Laps - 19
NR Fastest Laps - 16

LH Podiums - 55
NR Podiums - 50

Now, look at LH vs VB 82* Races together as Mercedes teammates. (*As of Portugal 2021)

LH Poles - 38
VB Poles - 17

LH Wins - 44
VB Wins - 9

LH Fastest Laps - 23
VB Fastest Laps - 16

LH Podiums - 64
VB Podiums - 49

Bottas is actually one of the biggest reasons LH has reached and broken the F1 records that he has (Wins, Poles, etc).

I'm sure that Lewis Hamilton is very very happy that Bottas is in the 2nd Mercedes and has been for the past 4 seasons.

It would have been a very different story if he was up against a similar level driver to Rosberg. yes

Alongside the stats, I just feel he isn't that good for Mercedes at marketing either.

I really hope that this season is his last at Mercedes, but then again I have been hoping for this since 2017 laugh

I think Bottas has been up against a better Lewis Hamilton than Rosberg faced.

I don't disagree that he isn't quite as good as the very best, but he doesn't need to be. He needs to be good enough to ensure his team win the WCC.

We, as fans, want to see the very best drivers battle it out in the top team. But why would the team risk the disruption we've often seen when that happens?

For 2022 I think Merc may well take a different view. With 16 championships in 8 seasons, that may well be the year they decide it's time to risk perfect harmony so that they can bring in their 'future team leader' and test him against Hamilton.

All this has been said by others. And I'm sure we'll keep having the same arguments until there is a change.

HighwayStar

3,392 posts

110 months

Wednesday 5th May
quotequote all
Bottas and Russell will not be swapped. Mercedes and Williams are not RedBull and Alpha Tauri. Bottas’s contract is with Mercedes, he wouldn’t have to go to Williams and Williams wouldn’t have to accept him. Even if the teams did agree, I’m sure Bottas would walk.
Russell does not fit in the Merc. Yes the one off worked, but say, 11 to 13 race weekends stuffed into a car you’re too big for? I don’t see it. 2022, a different story.
Bottas does need to up is game though, a few good races and the pressure with lift. 2 Mercs in the podium, 1 mostly on the top step will suffice.
A Perez and Bottas swap... that could only happen in one mans mind! wink

Callum43

113 posts

18 months

Wednesday 5th May
quotequote all
Supersam83 said:
I've mentioned this on another thread here but I totally agree with OP.

Bottas is just not a good enough driver to be in the 2nd Mercedes F1 seat.

Just comparing him with the previous driver Nico Rosberg shows how bad he is:

LH vs NR 78 Races together as Mercedes teammates.

LH Poles - 35
NR Poles - 29

LH Wins - 32
NR Wins - 22

LH Fastest Laps - 19
NR Fastest Laps - 16

LH Podiums - 55
NR Podiums - 50

Now, look at LH vs VB 82* Races together as Mercedes teammates. (*As of Portugal 2021)

LH Poles - 38
VB Poles - 17

LH Wins - 44
VB Wins - 9

LH Fastest Laps - 23
VB Fastest Laps - 16

LH Podiums - 64
VB Podiums - 49

Bottas is actually one of the biggest reasons LH has reached and broken the F1 records that he has (Wins, Poles, etc).

I'm sure that Lewis Hamilton is very very happy that Bottas is in the 2nd Mercedes and has been for the past 4 seasons.

It would have been a very different story if he was up against a similar level driver to Rosberg. yes

Alongside the stats, I just feel he isn't that good for Mercedes at marketing either.

I really hope that this season is his last at Mercedes, but then again I have been hoping for this since 2017 laugh

Not exactly a fan of his then ? I think he does a solid job in a difficult and sometimes thankless situation and I imagine he feels much like Eddie Irvine did with Schumacher. I can’t remember his exact quote but it was something like being hit round the head with at shovel each Grand Prix . Taking that second seat at Mercedes is really putting your career on the line and I’m not sure too many would relish it . So many think Russell is the man but I have reservations.
Why , on zero knowledge, do so many attribute Lewis to having powers over his choice of teammate . Yet another stick to beat him with in my opinion.

HustleRussell

19,425 posts

126 months

Wednesday 5th May
quotequote all
SpudLink said:
Supersam83 said:
I've mentioned this on another thread here but I totally agree with OP.

Bottas is just not a good enough driver to be in the 2nd Mercedes F1 seat.

Just comparing him with the previous driver Nico Rosberg shows how bad he is:

I think Bottas has been up against a better Lewis Hamilton than Rosberg faced.
Bottas was also up against a much better Ferrari and Red Bull than Rosberg was.

TheDeuce

9,586 posts

32 months

Wednesday 5th May
quotequote all
This is just another bash Bottas thread really... A shame as he's clearly talented and working hard, and has found a place he's very 'useful' albeit probably not in quite the way he aspired to.

The stubborn few that waste time pointing at other drivers who could do better or bring home more points surely do understand that Bottas brings home enough points, they don't need more points if it comes with a risk of intra-team battles and upsets. It doesn't take very much thinking about to realise that this works out extremely well for Mercedes - and that Mercedes would be pretty stupid to do something just because it would make the sport more interesting to watch for a minority that think they know more about how to manage a successful team than Toto.

As said, when Lewis has #8 or #8 is no longer likely to transpire anytime soon, Bottas probably will go. But right now, he is the perfect chap for the job and deserves every bit of praise and £££ for fulfilling a very important role at the team. Even if it's a role he doesn't like - that's his choice though.