Valtteri Bottas at Mercedes

Valtteri Bottas at Mercedes

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DanielSan

16,237 posts

133 months

It's fair to say Bottas out next year is becoming the worst kept secret in F1. There were rumours that he was told before Imola he wasn't going to be retained.

kiseca

9,073 posts

185 months

SturdyHSV said:
Jasandjules said:
I don't think there is a chance he will be out mid-season. Toto does not seem to be that kind of person.
Oh yeah Toto is all kittens and rainbows laugh

He is an intelligent individual and a successful businessman. If he thought the team would stand a better chance of winning this year with George instead of Valterri, Bottas would be out of the door at a higher speed than he was achieveing at the end of the main straight at Baku.

Wolff will just make an informed decision taking in to account things like time for George to get up to speed, disruption to the team, levels of competitiveness, actual risk of coming second to RB, impact to other team member morale to see Bottas unceremoniously dumped etc.

I don't imagine the decision would be made soon, as they are still within range of RB with the awkward for Mercedes tracks out of the way. If the gap in the constructor's continues to widen, Bottas had best start getting reacquainted with the Williams garage hehe
I don't think it's about kittens and rainbows. Toto seems like the kind of boss who keeps team motivation and morale high by not stabbing team members in the back, breaking promises / contracts, or being ruthless with his staff. The Brawn way: A united team dealing with eachother, a ruthless team dealing with anyone who isn't Mercedes. I think Bottas would have to show some significant attitude concerns for Toto to show him the door before his contract is out. And he's not doing that badly. He was in the hunt just one race ago, he's suffering with a difficult car, as is Lewis, and Toto knows this.

So unless Bottas gives Toto a good reason with something he says to the media, or something he says or does behind closed doors, I see him lasting out the season.... but I also don't see him driving for Mercedes next year at all.

Durzel

9,947 posts

134 months

It's business. Mercedes will want someone who can run interference for Hamilton, and Bottas doesn't seem to be able to do that anymore.

Leithen

7,621 posts

233 months

kiseca said:
I don't think it's about kittens and rainbows. Toto seems like the kind of boss who keeps team motivation and morale high by not stabbing team members in the back, breaking promises / contracts, or being ruthless with his staff. The Brawn way: A united team dealing with eachother, a ruthless team dealing with anyone who isn't Mercedes.
I’m not sure Brawn would entirely concur…

”It wasn’t me it was him…”

hehe

kiseca

9,073 posts

185 months

Durzel said:
It's business. Mercedes will want someone who can run interference for Hamilton, and Bottas doesn't seem to be able to do that anymore.
He was doing it fine in Monaco. That's just one race ago.

Teddy Lop

5,145 posts

33 months

kiseca said:
I don't think it's about kittens and rainbows. Toto seems like the kind of boss who keeps team motivation and morale high by not stabbing team members in the back, breaking promises / contracts, or being ruthless with his staff. The Brawn way: A united team dealing with eachother, a ruthless team dealing with anyone who isn't Mercedes. I think Bottas would have to show some significant attitude concerns for Toto to show him the door before his contract is out. And he's not doing that badly. He was in the hunt just one race ago, he's suffering with a difficult car, as is Lewis, and Toto knows this.

So unless Bottas gives Toto a good reason with something he says to the media, or something he says or does behind closed doors, I see him lasting out the season.... but I also don't see him driving for Mercedes next year at all.
The poster who referenced reality TV had it succinctly.

At circuits the cars more optimised for bottas deliver us some more of his trademark uninspiringly adequate finishes

Top teams don't normally drop drivers mid contract, red bull are a bit spesh. I suppose you could also say fezza kinda did it to Kimi.

Flooble

3,067 posts

66 months

HustleRussell said:
George does not fit well in the tub.

I am quite sure the 2022 car will be designed to accommodate his height and his race boot size properly.
Would that be visible externally? Although I guess we won't even see a hint of that car until the "launch" next year anyway.

kiseca

9,073 posts

185 months

Flooble said:
HustleRussell said:
George does not fit well in the tub.

I am quite sure the 2022 car will be designed to accommodate his height and his race boot size properly.
Would that be visible externally? Although I guess we won't even see a hint of that car until the "launch" next year anyway.
I doubt it, I'd expect both 2022 cars would be the same. The other driver might find his pleasantly roomy.

Flooble

3,067 posts

66 months

Yesterday (10:39)
quotequote all
kiseca said:
I doubt it, I'd expect both 2022 cars would be the same. The other driver might find his pleasantly roomy.
If Hamilton stays that'll be handy, as with his advancing years he'll probably need somewhere for his walking stick and will be wearing those zip-up tartan booties.

Teddy Lop

5,145 posts

33 months

Yesterday (11:00)
quotequote all
kiseca said:
Flooble said:
HustleRussell said:
George does not fit well in the tub.

I am quite sure the 2022 car will be designed to accommodate his height and his race boot size properly.
Would that be visible externally? Although I guess we won't even see a hint of that car until the "launch" next year anyway.
I doubt it, I'd expect both 2022 cars would be the same. The other driver might find his pleasantly roomy.
Absurd isn't it, the cars have increased in size to virtual land- yachts yet can't accommodate a slightly-above-average chap

defblade

6,148 posts

179 months

Yesterday (13:17)
quotequote all
Teddy Lop said:
Absurd isn't it, the cars have increased in size to virtual land- yachts yet can't accommodate a slightly-above-average chap
Crumple zones. I'm 6'4" and you should see the size of some of the road cars I don't fit into.

HustleRussell

19,398 posts

126 months

Yesterday (15:18)
quotequote all
Teddy Lop said:
kiseca said:
Flooble said:
HustleRussell said:
George does not fit well in the tub.

I am quite sure the 2022 car will be designed to accommodate his height and his race boot size properly.
Would that be visible externally? Although I guess we won't even see a hint of that car until the "launch" next year anyway.
I doubt it, I'd expect both 2022 cars would be the same. The other driver might find his pleasantly roomy.
Absurd isn't it, the cars have increased in size to virtual land- yachts yet can't accommodate a slightly-above-average chap
It just shows how mental the engineering side of F1 is when it comes to looking for tiny gains in pursuit of performance.

Normally the teams homologate a safety cell which will fit its drivers for the coming year. However for 2021, due to Covid and the postponement of the new regulations, all teams have been obliged to reuse their tub from last year. Some teams’ 2020 tub was carried over from 2019 so those teams are now in the unfortunate situation of unexpectedly being stuck with the tub they designed during winter 2018/19.

Half of the drivers on the grid have moved teams since 2019. A number of those won’t be sitting 100% comfortably.

A failed seat fit in McLaren left Ocon with no options for 2019. Ricciardo only just squeezed his carriage in for this season. Russell had to wear undersized race boots in order to be able to drive the Mercedes at all on the Sakhir weekend, and was sat visibly high in the car. The boots and the seat were causing him pain throughout the weekend.

Excess volume inside the cockpit for the driver equates to excess weight as well as volume which can’t be used for electrical looms, pipes, ducting, and external aero. The area immediately below the driver’s legs external to the safety cell is of critical importance to aerodynamic performance. Finding say 80mm extra length within the tub and 20mm extra height for George’s big feet will not come without a cost.

ETA: because the teams will only homologate one tub for both drivers, the driver’s size will absolutely be factored into consideration during selection. Two similarly sized drivers with the car shrink wrapped around them is optimal. It is no coincidence that teams often end up with similarly sized drivers.

ETA: just like my namesake, I have to wear small boots to fit in my Formula Ford. I have size 11 feet and my race boots are size 9.5. It is not a problem whilst seated, however I can’t walk around the paddock in them for very long!

Edited by HustleRussell on Saturday 12th June 15:37

nickfrog

14,396 posts

183 months

Yesterday (18:52)
quotequote all
^^ fascinating insight, thanks. This is also why the late Justin Wilson wasn't originally selected for F1 and had to rely on Minardi to make a tub that will fit...

HustleRussell

19,398 posts

126 months

Yesterday (19:22)
quotequote all
The inherent weight disadvantage of tall or stocky drivers was reduced significantly by the introduction in the past few years of a regulation defining the minimum weight of the driver and seat combination of 80kg.

The cockpit aperture is to a standard defined template. There are also minimum cross-sectional areas for the cockpit through the dash area and front bulkhead.

I have just read that George Russell was calling on the FIA to mandate standard cockpit dimensions which would reduce the packaging advantage afforded to teams who select small drivers- a step further to democratise F1 cars for tall drivers.

Flooble

3,067 posts

66 months

Yesterday (20:22)
quotequote all
Makes it all the weirder there have been no (long term) female F1 drivers.

With on average feet a couple of inches smaller and several inches less torso height, even with the weight advantage reduced now (it's still better to have 50kg of driver and 30kg of ballast than 80kg of driver) you'd think it would be a huge advantage if there was a woman even vaguely close on laptimes. Are all the Formula W racers really that much slower and there's not been any decent karting stars worth sponsoring in the last decade or so?

oyster

10,366 posts

214 months

Yesterday (20:39)
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
The inherent weight disadvantage of tall or stocky drivers was reduced significantly by the introduction in the past few years of a regulation defining the minimum weight of the driver and seat combination of 80kg.

The cockpit aperture is to a standard defined template. There are also minimum cross-sectional areas for the cockpit through the dash area and front bulkhead.

I have just read that George Russell was calling on the FIA to mandate standard cockpit dimensions which would reduce the packaging advantage afforded to teams who select small drivers- a step further to democratise F1 cars for tall drivers.
Why would you want to do that?
You don’t lower the net for shorter tennis players to serve over.

paulguitar

11,479 posts

79 months

Yesterday (20:48)
quotequote all
Flooble said:
Makes it all the weirder there have been no (long term) female F1 drivers.

With on average feet a couple of inches smaller and several inches less torso height, even with the weight advantage reduced now (it's still better to have 50kg of driver and 30kg of ballast than 80kg of driver) you'd think it would be a huge advantage if there was a woman even vaguely close on laptimes. Are all the Formula W racers really that much slower and there's not been any decent karting stars worth sponsoring in the last decade or so?
Indeed, they should be at an advantage. I'm not sure what the scientific explanation is, but it seems to be is simply a fact that females can't compete with males in sport, even non-athletic sports like snooker and darts.

thegreenhell

8,672 posts

185 months

Yesterday (20:57)
quotequote all
paulguitar said:
Flooble said:
Makes it all the weirder there have been no (long term) female F1 drivers.

With on average feet a couple of inches smaller and several inches less torso height, even with the weight advantage reduced now (it's still better to have 50kg of driver and 30kg of ballast than 80kg of driver) you'd think it would be a huge advantage if there was a woman even vaguely close on laptimes. Are all the Formula W racers really that much slower and there's not been any decent karting stars worth sponsoring in the last decade or so?
Indeed, they should be at an advantage. I'm not sure what the scientific explanation is, but it seems to be is simply a fact that females can't compete with males in sport, even non-athletic sports like snooker and darts.
I think the size thing is overplayed when talking about female drivers. If it was a factor then short-arses like Ant Davidson would be multiple champions. None of the recent champions have been particularly waiflike. Being too big can certainly be a disadvantage though.

Leithen

7,621 posts

233 months

Yesterday (21:05)
quotequote all
paulguitar said:
Flooble said:
Makes it all the weirder there have been no (long term) female F1 drivers.

With on average feet a couple of inches smaller and several inches less torso height, even with the weight advantage reduced now (it's still better to have 50kg of driver and 30kg of ballast than 80kg of driver) you'd think it would be a huge advantage if there was a woman even vaguely close on laptimes. Are all the Formula W racers really that much slower and there's not been any decent karting stars worth sponsoring in the last decade or so?
Indeed, they should be at an advantage. I'm not sure what the scientific explanation is, but it seems to be is simply a fact that females can't compete with males in sport, even non-athletic sports like snooker and darts.
The numbers of female participants is so small in relation to their male counterparts, and the legacy of prejudice against participation (see Walter Rohl's initial reaction to Michelle Mouton) that the results are entirely unsurprising.

honda_exige

2,717 posts

172 months

oyster said:
HustleRussell said:
The inherent weight disadvantage of tall or stocky drivers was reduced significantly by the introduction in the past few years of a regulation defining the minimum weight of the driver and seat combination of 80kg.

The cockpit aperture is to a standard defined template. There are also minimum cross-sectional areas for the cockpit through the dash area and front bulkhead.

I have just read that George Russell was calling on the FIA to mandate standard cockpit dimensions which would reduce the packaging advantage afforded to teams who select small drivers- a step further to democratise F1 cars for tall drivers.
Why would you want to do that?
You don’t lower the net for shorter tennis players to serve over.
You can't really make that analogy as at least shorter tennis players can still play the game. As it stands Russell would be physically incapable of fitting into some of the cars on the grid.

And even with his proposal small drivers would still retain their CoG advantage because the difference in weight between them and the 80kg minimum can be placed as ballast right on the floor of the car.