Mercedes' recent straight line speed. How? Legal?

Mercedes' recent straight line speed. How? Legal?

Author
Discussion

Megaflow

7,843 posts

197 months

Saturday 20th November
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jimothyc said:
Megaflow said:
jimothyc said:
Surely a photographer with a decent lens, positioned just before the braking area of the main straight at any track would have picked this up. So why aren’t there any more damning photos than a smudge that could be anything. Flexing would be quite visible from the rear.
Red Bull’s theory is that only the very tip of the main plane is flexing downwards, but it is hidden by the top flap, so can’t be seen by the on board camera and the FIA’s rear wing dots.
I'm not talking about the onboard cameras. I'm talking about a trackside photographer with a decent long lens. They should be able to see enough detail to determine if there is any flexure happening between the two planes of the wing. Measurements can be taken from a digital photograph quite easily if there is a known distance nearby.
Yes, I know what you meant. What I was trying to say is I don’t believe it is visible from the front, only from the rear, and then given the rear of the wing is totally black, I’m not sure you’d see anything.

Wills2

18,721 posts

147 months

Sunday 21st November
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Hazmat1 said:
When the Honda powered glasly is over 20kmh faster than max as well as all the other Honda powered cars it points at something other than oh nasty Mercedes are too fast..
And that's the point that makes this an utter farce, why no one mentions this to Horner whilst he is wibbling on about a Merc that's slower in a straight line than one of the Red bull owned cars is beyond parody.





E63eeeeee...

940 posts

21 months

Sunday 21st November
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Would those top speed stats not also have been influenced by DRS and slipstreams? From what I remember of the way the race played out, there can't have been many if any times Max was actually racing close behind a direct competitor on the circuit, and I don't remember him doing an overtake after the first corners, Lewis basically just dropped him once the pass was done.

Lewis obviously did lots of DRS- and slipstream-assisted passes, and lots of the drivers further back would have been involved in those situations regularly which would be at least a partial explanation for the variations in top speed.

jsf

24,257 posts

208 months

Sunday 21st November
quotequote all
E63eeeeee... said:
Would those top speed stats not also have been influenced by DRS and slipstreams? From what I remember of the way the race played out, there can't have been many if any times Max was actually racing close behind a direct competitor on the circuit, and I don't remember him doing an overtake after the first corners, Lewis basically just dropped him once the pass was done.

Lewis obviously did lots of DRS- and slipstream-assisted passes, and lots of the drivers further back would have been involved in those situations regularly which would be at least a partial explanation for the variations in top speed.
Look at the qualy speed trap data, the Red Bull is still slow and the Mercedes is still not the fastest car. Mazepin has the fastest top speed in this event.

jimPH

2,787 posts

52 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
Wills2 said:
Hazmat1 said:
When the Honda powered glasly is over 20kmh faster than max as well as all the other Honda powered cars it points at something other than oh nasty Mercedes are too fast..
And that's the point that makes this an utter farce, why no one mentions this to Horner whilst he is wibbling on about a Merc that's slower in a straight line than one of the Red bull owned cars is beyond parody.
I think people are overlooking the fact that Mercedes had a high downforce wing AND was quick on the straight.

The fact another car was faster with a low drag wing is beside the point.

Absolute top speed is also down to gearing.

Mercedes suddenly have a combination that is fast everywhere.

LostM135idriver

414 posts

3 months

Monday 22nd November
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It is extremely suspicious that they’ve made their car fastest over the whole lap. It’s almost like the whole point of the sport is to be fastest overall.

jimPH

2,787 posts

52 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
LostM135idriver said:
It is extremely suspicious that they’ve made their car fastest over the whole lap. It’s almost like the whole point of the sport is to be fastest overall.
Almost like the rules don't count?

TheDeuce

11,907 posts

38 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
jimPH said:
I think people are overlooking the fact that Mercedes had a high downforce wing AND was quick on the straight.

The fact another car was faster with a low drag wing is beside the point.

Absolute top speed is also down to gearing.

Mercedes suddenly have a combination that is fast everywhere.
Just good engineering - especially on the rear suspension. That's why they can have the benefits of top speed and high levels of aero downforce.

Wills2

18,721 posts

147 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
jimPH said:
LostM135idriver said:
It is extremely suspicious that they’ve made their car fastest over the whole lap. It’s almost like the whole point of the sport is to be fastest overall.
Almost like the rules don't count?
You mean the rule that says Max must win?

Muzzer79

5,643 posts

159 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
jimPH said:
LostM135idriver said:
It is extremely suspicious that they’ve made their car fastest over the whole lap. It’s almost like the whole point of the sport is to be fastest overall.
Almost like the rules don't count?
Which rules have been broken?

Dynion Araf Uchaf

2,936 posts

195 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
jimPH said:
I think people are overlooking the fact that Mercedes had a high downforce wing AND was quick on the straight.

The fact another car was faster with a low drag wing is beside the point.

Absolute top speed is also down to gearing.

Mercedes suddenly have a combination that is fast everywhere.
Just good engineering - especially on the rear suspension. That's why they can have the benefits of top speed and high levels of aero downforce.
I think we are seeing for the first time MB throwing the kitchen sink at the car in the closing stages of the championship. Normally at this point the title is already wrapped up, or between the the MB drivers. So less need for an arm race to keep the opposition at bay. Coupled with the lemons coming from RB and you can see they've decided to turn the screw.

Just hope it goes to the final round with less than a couple of points between them.

TheDeuce

11,907 posts

38 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
TheDeuce said:
jimPH said:
I think people are overlooking the fact that Mercedes had a high downforce wing AND was quick on the straight.

The fact another car was faster with a low drag wing is beside the point.

Absolute top speed is also down to gearing.

Mercedes suddenly have a combination that is fast everywhere.
Just good engineering - especially on the rear suspension. That's why they can have the benefits of top speed and high levels of aero downforce.
I think we are seeing for the first time MB throwing the kitchen sink at the car in the closing stages of the championship. Normally at this point the title is already wrapped up, or between the the MB drivers. So less need for an arm race to keep the opposition at bay. Coupled with the lemons coming from RB and you can see they've decided to turn the screw.
It does make sense that Mercedes should throw all they can at this years car. This year they know they have a chance of both title, next year... it's possible they may not be in that position.

I think there is also an element of Merce being hit hardest by the new floor regs, and they're now getting on to of how to make their car work as well as previously, but differently.

The most obvious area responsible for their performance of late (along with the new PU of course) is the current evolution of their rear suspension, which is engineered fantastically to drop quickly as speed builds, just when it needs to. That effectively gives them the same benefits as RB gain from their high rake design, but with none of the drawbacks. Now they have that system working so beautifully, they are able to exploit larger wings than their competitors and still maintain whatever top speed they feel they need as a minimum.

No theories of cheating are required when we can visibly watch the fantastic engineering in motion, and can see how it gives Merc the best of both worlds.

macdeb

7,961 posts

227 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
I don't suppose anyone has given thought to 'who' is driving? I mean, Bottas is in same car (also not fastest). Why should the legal question be asked? rolleyes

jimPH

2,787 posts

52 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
TheDeuce said:
jimPH said:
I think people are overlooking the fact that Mercedes had a high downforce wing AND was quick on the straight.

The fact another car was faster with a low drag wing is beside the point.

Absolute top speed is also down to gearing.

Mercedes suddenly have a combination that is fast everywhere.
Just good engineering - especially on the rear suspension. That's why they can have the benefits of top speed and high levels of aero downforce.
I think we are seeing for the first time MB throwing the kitchen sink at the car in the closing stages of the championship. Normally at this point the title is already wrapped up, or between the the MB drivers. So less need for an arm race to keep the opposition at bay. Coupled with the lemons coming from RB and you can see they've decided to turn the screw.
It does make sense that Mercedes should throw all they can at this years car. This year they know they have a chance of both title, next year... it's possible they may not be in that position.

I think there is also an element of Merce being hit hardest by the new floor regs, and they're now getting on to of how to make their car work as well as previously, but differently.

The most obvious area responsible for their performance of late (along with the new PU of course) is the current evolution of their rear suspension, which is engineered fantastically to drop quickly as speed builds, just when it needs to. That effectively gives them the same benefits as RB gain from their high rake design, but with none of the drawbacks. Now they have that system working so beautifully, they are able to exploit larger wings than their competitors and still maintain whatever top speed they feel they need as a minimum.

No theories of cheating are required when we can visibly watch the fantastic engineering in motion, and can see how it gives Merc the best of both worlds.
Yet we see significantly reduced straight line speed on a track with higher speed. Just as they reintroduce the wing load test.

jimPH

2,787 posts

52 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
jimPH said:
LostM135idriver said:
It is extremely suspicious that they’ve made their car fastest over the whole lap. It’s almost like the whole point of the sport is to be fastest overall.
Almost like the rules don't count?
Which rules have been broken?
Like the rules Ferrari didn't break?

HustleRussell

20,512 posts

132 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
You're assuming correlation equals causation Jim.

I've not actually happened upon speed trap data for Qatar, can you share it?

TonyToniTone

2,988 posts

221 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
jimPH said:
I think people are overlooking the fact that Mercedes had a high downforce wing AND was quick on the straight.
Has anyone other than Horner confirmed that they are using a Monaco wing?

jimPH

2,787 posts

52 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
You're assuming correlation equals causation Jim.

I've not actually happened upon speed trap data for Qatar, can you share it?
Straightly speed was commented on by RB in the post race interview and was said to be very similar or words to that effect.

I have no reason to believe they would lie about that, considering it was a point of conjecture last time they lost.

HustleRussell

20,512 posts

132 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
TonyToniTone said:
jimPH said:
I think people are overlooking the fact that Mercedes had a high downforce wing AND was quick on the straight.
Has anyone other than Horner confirmed that they are using a Monaco wing?
It has been stated by analysts that it is demonstrably not a Monaco configuration.

jimPH

2,787 posts

52 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
TonyToniTone said:
jimPH said:
I think people are overlooking the fact that Mercedes had a high downforce wing AND was quick on the straight.
Has anyone other than Horner confirmed that they are using a Monaco wing?
Why would anyone other than a title rival mention it? Do you think HAAS are bothered for instance?