Mercedes' recent straight line speed. How? Legal?

Mercedes' recent straight line speed. How? Legal?

Author
Discussion

CustardOnChips

1,854 posts

34 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
jimPH said:
HustleRussell said:
You're assuming correlation equals causation Jim.

I've not actually happened upon speed trap data for Qatar, can you share it?
Straightly speed was commented on by RB in the post race interview and was said to be very similar or words to that effect.

I have no reason to believe they would lie about that, considering it was a point of conjecture last time they lost.
Ahh. The beacon of truth and honesty that is Christian Horner? laugh

TonyToniTone

2,988 posts

221 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
jimPH said:
Why would anyone other than a title rival mention it? Do you think HAAS are bothered for instance?
It seems Horner was talking nonsense and they weren't running a Monaco wing.

jimPH

2,783 posts

52 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
TonyToniTone said:
jimPH said:
Why would anyone other than a title rival mention it? Do you think HAAS are bothered for instance?
It seems Horner was talking nonsense and they weren't running a Monaco wing.
I didnt say a Monaco wing.

HustleRussell

20,512 posts

132 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
jimPH said:
HustleRussell said:
You're assuming correlation equals causation Jim.

I've not actually happened upon speed trap data for Qatar, can you share it?
Straightly speed was commented on by RB in the post race interview and was said to be very similar or words to that effect.

I have no reason to believe they would lie about that, considering it was a point of conjecture last time they lost.
rofl

I am sorry but that is funny.

You are ready to assume that no team principal would be willing to use data selectively, exaggerate, or outright lie to support their own preconceived notions about a competitor or to influence outward perception?

...and you're making this assumption in relation to Christian Horner in particular?

Sorry but this is a failure of critical thought. You cannot take anything any team principal choses to say publically about their observations concerning a competitor seriously.

There exists a procedure by which a competitor can protest a car which they do not believe is legal.

Statements to the press shall rightly be considered 'noise'.

waynecyclist

2,152 posts

86 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
jimPH said:
Yet we see significantly reduced straight line speed on a track with higher speed. Just as they reintroduce the wing load test.
Don't forgot that they had an older engine in, saving the new Brazil engine for the next race.

jimPH

2,783 posts

52 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
jimPH said:
HustleRussell said:
You're assuming correlation equals causation Jim.

I've not actually happened upon speed trap data for Qatar, can you share it?
Straightly speed was commented on by RB in the post race interview and was said to be very similar or words to that effect.

I have no reason to believe they would lie about that, considering it was a point of conjecture last time they lost.
rofl

I am sorry but that is funny.

You are ready to assume that no team principal would be willing to use data selectively, exaggerate, or outright lie to support their own preconceived notions about a competitor or to influence outward perception?

...and you're making this assumption in relation to Christian Horner in particular?

Sorry but this is a failure of critical thought. You cannot take anything any team principal choses to say publically about their observations concerning a competitor seriously.

There exists a procedure by which a competitor can protest a car which they do not believe is legal.

Statements to the press shall rightly be considered 'noise'.
The velocity delta across the finish line in qualifying at Sao Paulo between the Briton and championship contender Max Verstappen was 7.7 km/h.

That difference has been reduced to 3.4 km/h at Losail, with Hamilton breezing through the speed trap as the 13th fastest car while Max was 19th fastest, which suggests that Red Bull is in the vicinity of Mercedes in terms of maximum speed in Qatar.

On a 1km straight where mercs suspension trick will be most effective...

https://f1i.com/news/425754-qatar-speed-trap-who-i...

HustleRussell

20,512 posts

132 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
jimPH said:
HustleRussell said:
jimPH said:
HustleRussell said:
You're assuming correlation equals causation Jim.

I've not actually happened upon speed trap data for Qatar, can you share it?
Straightly speed was commented on by RB in the post race interview and was said to be very similar or words to that effect.

I have no reason to believe they would lie about that, considering it was a point of conjecture last time they lost.
rofl

I am sorry but that is funny.

You are ready to assume that no team principal would be willing to use data selectively, exaggerate, or outright lie to support their own preconceived notions about a competitor or to influence outward perception?

...and you're making this assumption in relation to Christian Horner in particular?

Sorry but this is a failure of critical thought. You cannot take anything any team principal choses to say publically about their observations concerning a competitor seriously.

There exists a procedure by which a competitor can protest a car which they do not believe is legal.

Statements to the press shall rightly be considered 'noise'.
The velocity delta across the finish line in qualifying at Sao Paulo between the Briton and championship contender Max Verstappen was 7.7 km/h.

That difference has been reduced to 3.4 km/h at Losail, with Hamilton breezing through the speed trap as the 13th fastest car while Max was 19th fastest, which suggests that Red Bull is in the vicinity of Mercedes in terms of maximum speed in Qatar.

On a 1km straight where mercs suspension trick will be most effective...

https://f1i.com/news/425754-qatar-speed-trap-who-i...
scratchchin That's interesting because Christian Horner said in the press conference that Mercedes had a "27kph closing speed" in Brazil.

What do you think of a 7.7kph measured speed trap figure difference between Mercedes and Red Bull Jim? and what do you think 3.4kph tells us about Qatar?

f1_dragon

303 posts

196 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
jimPH said:
On a 1km straight where mercs suspension trick will be most effective...

https://f1i.com/news/425754-qatar-speed-trap-who-i...
That's an interesting one. Given the high speed nature of the corners, I don't think they could set the rear to squat until relatively high speed on the straight?

jimPH

2,783 posts

52 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
jimPH said:
HustleRussell said:
jimPH said:
HustleRussell said:
You're assuming correlation equals causation Jim.

I've not actually happened upon speed trap data for Qatar, can you share it?
Straightly speed was commented on by RB in the post race interview and was said to be very similar or words to that effect.

I have no reason to believe they would lie about that, considering it was a point of conjecture last time they lost.
rofl

I am sorry but that is funny.

You are ready to assume that no team principal would be willing to use data selectively, exaggerate, or outright lie to support their own preconceived notions about a competitor or to influence outward perception?

...and you're making this assumption in relation to Christian Horner in particular?

Sorry but this is a failure of critical thought. You cannot take anything any team principal choses to say publically about their observations concerning a competitor seriously.

There exists a procedure by which a competitor can protest a car which they do not believe is legal.

Statements to the press shall rightly be considered 'noise'.
The velocity delta across the finish line in qualifying at Sao Paulo between the Briton and championship contender Max Verstappen was 7.7 km/h.

That difference has been reduced to 3.4 km/h at Losail, with Hamilton breezing through the speed trap as the 13th fastest car while Max was 19th fastest, which suggests that Red Bull is in the vicinity of Mercedes in terms of maximum speed in Qatar.

On a 1km straight where mercs suspension trick will be most effective...

https://f1i.com/news/425754-qatar-speed-trap-who-i...
scratchchin That's interesting because Christian Horner said in the press conference that Mercedes had a "27kph closing speed" in Brazil.

What do you think of a 7.7kph measured speed trap figure difference between Mercedes and Red Bull Jim? and what do you think 3.4kph tells us about Qatar?
With a high downforce wing in Brazil? If the top speed delta is half, there will be a corresponding reduction in closing speed.

TheDeuce

11,905 posts

38 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
f1_dragon said:
jimPH said:
On a 1km straight where mercs suspension trick will be most effective...

https://f1i.com/news/425754-qatar-speed-trap-who-i...
That's an interesting one. Given the high speed nature of the corners, I don't think they could set the rear to squat until relatively high speed on the straight?
Just design it to only squat when the rears are fairly evenly loaded. That would allow it squat as the car starts to straighten up as it's exits a corner at virtually any speed.

thegreenhell

9,855 posts

191 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
If Mercedes were cheating in Brazil but not Qatar, how was Lewis still nearly half a second quicker than Max in Qatar?

https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hughes-the-tru...

whatleytom

825 posts

155 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
jimPH said:
The velocity delta across the finish line in qualifying at Sao Paulo between the Briton and championship contender Max Verstappen was 7.7 km/h.

That difference has been reduced to 3.4 km/h at Losail, with Hamilton breezing through the speed trap as the 13th fastest car while Max was 19th fastest, which suggests that Red Bull is in the vicinity of Mercedes in terms of maximum speed in Qatar.

On a 1km straight where mercs suspension trick will be most effective...

https://f1i.com/news/425754-qatar-speed-trap-who-i...
Surely the rear suspension is only particularly useful where the highest speed corner, relative to other tracks is lower in speed. Following that you can then configure the suspension to start sitting down at a lower speed, generating a bigger differential. Qatar and Austin with relatively high speed corners aren't the places for that.

Anyhow can't say I believe it's down to any one of these individual thing, and it seems red bull aren't really sure either, just trying to throw shade and discredit mercedes because of that.

PhilAsia

274 posts

47 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all


There is talk of Lewis being on three-quarter throttle on the straight in Qatar...

vdn

8,265 posts

175 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
jimPH said:
Yet we see significantly reduced straight line speed on a track with higher speed. Just as they reintroduce the wing load test.
And Hamilton STILL smashes the field by almost half a second in Quali'.

Crazy.

TheDeuce

11,905 posts

38 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
This thread is highly amusing smile


Megaflow

7,843 posts

197 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
It does make sense that Mercedes should throw all they can at this years car. This year they know they have a chance of both title, next year... it's possible they may not be in that position.

I think there is also an element of Merce being hit hardest by the new floor regs, and they're now getting on to of how to make their car work as well as previously, but differently.

The most obvious area responsible for their performance of late (along with the new PU of course) is the current evolution of their rear suspension, which is engineered fantastically to drop quickly as speed builds, just when it needs to. That effectively gives them the same benefits as RB gain from their high rake design, but with none of the drawbacks. Now they have that system working so beautifully, they are able to exploit larger wings than their competitors and still maintain whatever top speed they feel they need as a minimum.

No theories of cheating are required when we can visibly watch the fantastic engineering in motion, and can see how it gives Merc the best of both worlds.
I’m not sure they are throwing the kitchen sink at it. There hasn’t been any significant aero changes since the summer, and the new rear suspension can be carried over to next years car. It’s Red Bull that having been throwing update after update at the car.

TheDeuce

11,905 posts

38 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
Megaflow said:
TheDeuce said:
It does make sense that Mercedes should throw all they can at this years car. This year they know they have a chance of both title, next year... it's possible they may not be in that position.

I think there is also an element of Merce being hit hardest by the new floor regs, and they're now getting on to of how to make their car work as well as previously, but differently.

The most obvious area responsible for their performance of late (along with the new PU of course) is the current evolution of their rear suspension, which is engineered fantastically to drop quickly as speed builds, just when it needs to. That effectively gives them the same benefits as RB gain from their high rake design, but with none of the drawbacks. Now they have that system working so beautifully, they are able to exploit larger wings than their competitors and still maintain whatever top speed they feel they need as a minimum.

No theories of cheating are required when we can visibly watch the fantastic engineering in motion, and can see how it gives Merc the best of both worlds.
I’m not sure they are throwing the kitchen sink at it. There hasn’t been any significant aero changes since the summer, and the new rear suspension can be carried over to next years car. It’s Red Bull that having been throwing update after update at the car.
A lot of work understanding a car can be applied with the smallest of changes. It's about how much progress each update brings and the effort behind it - not the number of updates.


jsf

24,255 posts

208 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
jimPH said:
Yet we see significantly reduced straight line speed on a track with higher speed. Just as they reintroduce the wing load test.
No "we" are not.

The data doesn't lie, you simply dont want to look at it because Horners comments are made up bullst.

jsf

24,255 posts

208 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
jimPH said:
Straightly speed was commented on by RB in the post race interview and was said to be very similar or words to that effect.

I have no reason to believe they would lie about that, considering it was a point of conjecture last time they lost.
He lied about the Brazil speeds. Look at the data. Max car was the slowest of all the cars in the speed trap, they chose a very draggy setup.

rscott

12,752 posts

163 months

Monday 22nd November
quotequote all
jsf said:
jimPH said:
Yet we see significantly reduced straight line speed on a track with higher speed. Just as they reintroduce the wing load test.
No "we" are not.

The data doesn't lie, you simply dont want to look at it because Horners comments are made up bullst.
You're assuming that JimPH is interested in facts - his previous anti-Hamilton posts show that's not the case.